Cop bashing
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You pick.
Where are all the experts now? With the wealth of knowledge of policing that everybody has here I thought I'd have an answer by now. What's the guys' lawyer gonna say? Everyone here feels free to criticize, well c'mon. You are the experts on laws of arrest, search and seizure, explain what to do with the guy. Its all so simple now isnt it?
You wouldnt want him "hassled" though, would ya? He's just sitting there, plenty of legitimate reasons for that, maybe the car's broke down, maybe he just feels a little tired and wants to rest. Maybe he is gonna pick up his niece so she doesnt have to walk home from school, all those kidnappers out there, he'll protect her. No harm in that, right? He was'nt convicted after all so he must be innocent. It is a public street anyway, he's got as much right to be there as anybody?
C'mon you Probable Cause experts, help out here. When you get called in to the Sheriff's office to meet this guy's attorney, whatcha gonna say?
Where are all the experts now? With the wealth of knowledge of policing that everybody has here I thought I'd have an answer by now. What's the guys' lawyer gonna say? Everyone here feels free to criticize, well c'mon. You are the experts on laws of arrest, search and seizure, explain what to do with the guy. Its all so simple now isnt it?
You wouldnt want him "hassled" though, would ya? He's just sitting there, plenty of legitimate reasons for that, maybe the car's broke down, maybe he just feels a little tired and wants to rest. Maybe he is gonna pick up his niece so she doesnt have to walk home from school, all those kidnappers out there, he'll protect her. No harm in that, right? He was'nt convicted after all so he must be innocent. It is a public street anyway, he's got as much right to be there as anybody?
C'mon you Probable Cause experts, help out here. When you get called in to the Sheriff's office to meet this guy's attorney, whatcha gonna say?
richyoung
Member
Why I Might Not Trust Law Envorcement (Texoma examples only)...
1. Fake drug scandal - numerous poor black and hispanic defendants in Texas arrested for possession of what turns out to be talc or gypsum. Said poor defendants talked into plea bargains by their public defenders. Even after the drugs were found to be fake, and tesstimony false, the "defendants" are still in prison, according to the D.A.s involved, because "they shouldn't have pled guilty!" (***???)
2. The helpful criminologist in the Panhandle of Texas that just "made up" whatever evidence would assure a conviction.
3. The Comanche County, Oklahoma sheriff's deputy in the early eighties who had the habit of busting up couples on deserted lover's lanes, sending the guy and his car home, and then raping the teenage girls. (This scandal was largely responsible for the election of the current sheriff, Kenney Stradley)
4. The Lawton, OK PD officer (won't mention his name - rhymes with "busky") that KICKED IN the driver's door of my brother's Camero (The WHOLE DOOR, I mean). WHat was my brother's crime? He had an argument with the officer's son at school.
5. The Lawton PD officer that finally got fired the SECOND time he fatally shot an unarmed suspect in the back.
Your comments, centac?
1. Fake drug scandal - numerous poor black and hispanic defendants in Texas arrested for possession of what turns out to be talc or gypsum. Said poor defendants talked into plea bargains by their public defenders. Even after the drugs were found to be fake, and tesstimony false, the "defendants" are still in prison, according to the D.A.s involved, because "they shouldn't have pled guilty!" (***???)
2. The helpful criminologist in the Panhandle of Texas that just "made up" whatever evidence would assure a conviction.
3. The Comanche County, Oklahoma sheriff's deputy in the early eighties who had the habit of busting up couples on deserted lover's lanes, sending the guy and his car home, and then raping the teenage girls. (This scandal was largely responsible for the election of the current sheriff, Kenney Stradley)
4. The Lawton, OK PD officer (won't mention his name - rhymes with "busky") that KICKED IN the driver's door of my brother's Camero (The WHOLE DOOR, I mean). WHat was my brother's crime? He had an argument with the officer's son at school.
5. The Lawton PD officer that finally got fired the SECOND time he fatally shot an unarmed suspect in the back.
Your comments, centac?
"centac", my point is this: you claim to act based on the law, but you do not know the law. So, what are you acting on?
If you, being-presumably- a law enforcement official, do not know all the laws, how can Joe Sixpack be expected to know them?
But search away. And if you can't search, be confident they're guilty. They will be.
And so are you. Because there are so many laws it is impossible to not violate some of them.
But you know that, don't you?
John
If you, being-presumably- a law enforcement official, do not know all the laws, how can Joe Sixpack be expected to know them?
But search away. And if you can't search, be confident they're guilty. They will be.
And so are you. Because there are so many laws it is impossible to not violate some of them.
But you know that, don't you?
John
Welcome to the real world.....as long as people make up all the servers, then you will have good ones and bad ones...good and bad preachers, truckers, and indian chiefs...etc.... so !!! Running your past dirty laundry up for all the world...and then saying because of that experience.... ALL people who do this task...are bad, or good...is pretty short sighted...and worth zip !!! Who gives a rats behind...what anyone did... your past is your business, how you choose to paint yourself...on a public forum is also your business.... geezzzz people lighten up...get off your computer, and go outside and do something positive... might see everything allot different, maybe even yourself !!!!
Control Group
Member
Frankly? Yeah. I don't want to be stopped and searched by every cop that sees me because I've had charges against me dropped (hypothetically speaking; I've never actually been accused of any crime). You know, it's possible that the guy's actually innocent. It's also possible he's not, and he's planning something vile. On the other hand, that guy who's never been even accused of anything is also sitting outside the school in his car. You know, the one all the neighbors think is "such a quiet type," and the one they "can't believe would do something like that." You'd better go harass him, too, 'cause he might commit a crime.
The alternative is that we completely discard the whole trial thing, and as soon as the police believe someone's guilty, we treat them as guilty. Not to put too fine a point on it, that's crap.
It's the down side of this whole "liberty" thing - some people abuse their rights, and commit crimes. These crimes have victims, and I feel bad for them, but the job of the police isn't to prevent crimes, it's to catch criminals. This, incidentally, is why everyone should have the right to carry a gun, because the police can't stop someone until they're actually committing a crime, by which time it's too late for you, the victim.
Again, frankly, yeah. He's innocent until proven guilty. I don't care what you think you "know" about him, your beliefs about his activities aren't good enough. That's why we've got a court system, and the police don't get to just throw people in prison.
You seem to think that I don't understand the consequences of what I believe, when in fact, I do. Just throwing around the word "pedophile" isn't going to change my mind. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, and I believe that it requires a jury of my peers to declare me guilty, no matter how well-intentioned the cop who "just knew" I was going to be guilty of whatever crime it is we're talking about, be it shoplifting or rape.
20cows
Member
LawDog answered your question already. I guess you didn't get the answer you wanted (some teachers are like that).
(Emphasis mine.)centac said:
I often have a large empty coffee can in my car when heading to the range. I use them to collect brass. And, believe it or not, I have had several empty coffee bags in my car. A friend and I went to Costco to buy and grind several bags of coffee which went into a large plastic container. We kept the bags in case we had any left over after an event.
So, if you happened to glance in my car at a license check or the like, I am now a drug dealer?? That is one hell of a leap in "logic".
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I would certainly question the decision to search the car next to him just because that car had a coffee can in it and was being driven by a young guy.
My car probably has a couple of dryer sheets in it right now. That happens when you have two young kids (6 and 4) dragging their laundry out to the car. I've never used any drugs recreationally (even alcohol and tobacco) and I would certainly be a bit disturbed if someone conducted a PC search of my car based on the presence of said dryer sheets. (No coffee cans, though.)
And centac/LawDog/other LEO's on this thread--my experience with law enforcement in my 34 years has been 100% positive. I can't recall ever being treated badly or disrespectfully by ANY police officer I've ever met, and I appreciate all you do. I also read police magazines from time to time and realize how tough your job is. So I'm not a cop-basher by any means, I just want to feel secure in my home, my vehicle, and my person from arbitrary/unreasonable searches. Conducting an arbitrary search based on an innocent item in the back seat of my car would make me feel rather violated.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
What do you suppose that pedos jury is going to say, made up of moms and dads and grand parents if I do find something to charge him with?
Obviously you have never dealt with registered sex offenders, I have and unfortunately do on an (alarmingly) regular basis. My county has a large number of them and we also have a citizens group headed up by a mother of a 13-year-old girl who was cornered by one who just so happened to live in their neighborhood. Mom found out this person was a RSO and now is on a crusade to educate everyone in our county to the shear number of these people living near folks.
As a result a large number of parents now know of them and we do get regular calls on them for usually suspicious behavior.
The last call I had involved a 45-year-old male standing in a small brush/tree line still on the public access to a county maintained roadway, watching a small group of girls play in a kiddie pool in a yard.
He was about 50 feet from them, was spotted, the kids freaked and ran screaming, mom called the cops, dad went after him.
We knew exactly whom he was, due to the parents having viewed and printed his info and picture off the Internet. We straight to his house, remember these fools are still state property because they are on intensive probation and required to register as SO’s and therefore have little expectation of privacy.
Remember we can’t trust them so we have them make themselves known to us by registering.
I went off on him pretty good, held a come to Jesus meeting with him and basically told him if I ever received another call out here again that I would find a lawful reason to take him to jail and would make it my personal crusade to have his parole revoked sending him back to prison, that if any child so much as turned up in this neighborhood with a scratch or God forbid missing his name would be at the top of a very short list.
The man was in tears when I left.
The entire conversation was audio taped as per our department SOP and I did inform the Sheriff.
The neighbors were happy and I never heard a single thing out of that incident, I also spent the next two weeks making frequent stops at the complainant’s house just to check in.
I’m sure those law abiding parents who live in that small neighborhood think better of us for doing that, but you know I really don’t care, what I’d like to do is put that bottom dweller back in jail.
Think anyone here would lose any sleep over that?
Mal H
A can with brass in it is clearly different than a can without. If it is empty and their is a logical explanation for it, so much the better. If I spotted them in your car I might ask about them, or would that be too outlandish to tolerate. If the explanation was particulary lame or not forthcoming, game on.
Lawdog said what he would do, not how a lawyer would respond. The question now is what will the guy's lawyer say. Frankly, the officer doesnt need to FI him, having dealt with him frequently.
Its all so easy from behind a keyboard, isnt it?
A can with brass in it is clearly different than a can without. If it is empty and their is a logical explanation for it, so much the better. If I spotted them in your car I might ask about them, or would that be too outlandish to tolerate. If the explanation was particulary lame or not forthcoming, game on.
Lawdog said what he would do, not how a lawyer would respond. The question now is what will the guy's lawyer say. Frankly, the officer doesnt need to FI him, having dealt with him frequently.
Its all so easy from behind a keyboard, isnt it?
jefnvk
Member
You'd be suprised at what turns up in my car, and I've never been up to anything nefarious. Stupid things, yes; nefarious things, nope. Dangerous to others? Hardly.
But let's just suppose you arrest me for (gasp) an empty coffee can while I am going out fishing with my canoe or kayak. You know what you'd be holding me on? My boat's toilet.
My brother had an ear problem when he was younger. Know what we kept to use as a puke bucket? That's right. Empty coffee can.
By that logic, I'm suprised I haven't been arrested on weapons charges yet. Think about it, who has a rifle cartridge on their floor? Obviously someone on their way to rob a bank.
I'm still assuming you were trying to prove your point, and picked an incredibly crappy example. Concede the point, and it'll make your police force look MUCH better.
As for the pedo, give him a ticket for the broken taillight. That is against the law. As for being parked in a parking lot watching a school, nope. Is he under investigation? If so, I'd imagine you have the warrant to arrest, go ahead. If not, he is just a suspected pedo, he hasn't been charged with anything in a court of law, you don't have a warrant, he is no different than any other person watching a school.
What bothers me, is that you aren't even trying to defend police. You are just seemingly proud of the fact that you can lock people when you feel like it. That is why people bash cops in these posts.
Cosmoline
Member
Your use of the term "civilians" is a red flag. The bad cops tend to be the ones who regard the world as divided between cops and "civilians." They view themselves as a military force APART FROM the rest of us, rather than public sector employees WORKING FOR us.
As far as a search because of an empty coffee can, you'd never have my permission for it, and I'd have a field day with a warrantless search based on such an absurd justification.
Mr. Ezra,
What people here refuse to acknowledge is that context is everything. If a stop you for a violation and see fabric softener sheets, a basket of laundry, detergent, empty hangers and the like that puts a far more innocent context on the item. You may still have contraband in the car, but you've done a much better job of covering your tracks
Conversly, if you have out of state plates on a rental car and I stop you for a violation on the interstate and I see an empty dryer sheet box, but nothing else is in the car, no laundry, no laundry paraphenalia, there is a whole different context now.
To return the thread to its original topic, people here take a snippet of information from the media and proceed to slam an entire profession without considering the greater context of what occurred. It seems like the worst offenders look for any excuse to criticize the police, and do so from am unqualified background.
What people here refuse to acknowledge is that context is everything. If a stop you for a violation and see fabric softener sheets, a basket of laundry, detergent, empty hangers and the like that puts a far more innocent context on the item. You may still have contraband in the car, but you've done a much better job of covering your tracks
Conversly, if you have out of state plates on a rental car and I stop you for a violation on the interstate and I see an empty dryer sheet box, but nothing else is in the car, no laundry, no laundry paraphenalia, there is a whole different context now.
To return the thread to its original topic, people here take a snippet of information from the media and proceed to slam an entire profession without considering the greater context of what occurred. It seems like the worst offenders look for any excuse to criticize the police, and do so from am unqualified background.
Cosmoline
Member
You won't do squat about that. Unless of course the chester has AN EMPTY COFFEE CAN!! (the horror--save the children!)
"As far as a search because of an empty coffee can, you'd never have my permission for it, and I'd have a field day with a warrantless search based on such an absurd justification."
Um, there are a couple guys in prison who didnt have the "field day" you think you'd have.
Um, there are a couple guys in prison who didnt have the "field day" you think you'd have.
thereisnospoon
Member
Give Centac a break!
I have read this entire thread and have come to the following conclusion(s)...
I) Centac loves being Law Enforcement and loves posting his opinion on THR
II) Spoon loves guns and loves posting his opinion on THR (I also carry around empty coffee cans for brass at the range...guess I'm going to jail, cause I ain't consenting for that crap!)
III) Centac and Spoon will never agree on the "cop bashing" issue because
IV) Centac obviously doesn't get that his "police state" attitude is the very problem we mere civilians detest, as several of HIS bretheren have pointed out.
V) Centac tries very hard to defend his point of view and does a very reasonable job...
BUT HIS POSITION AND THE DEFENSE THEREOF SCARE THE HELL OUT OF THE "civilians" ON THR, as well they should!
So let's give Centrac a break, he seems to be the only LE on his side of the debate. I bet he is a nice guy, too and I really mean that, he just doesn't see how his attitude scares the crap out of the rest of us.
I have read this entire thread and have come to the following conclusion(s)...
I) Centac loves being Law Enforcement and loves posting his opinion on THR
II) Spoon loves guns and loves posting his opinion on THR (I also carry around empty coffee cans for brass at the range...guess I'm going to jail, cause I ain't consenting for that crap!)
III) Centac and Spoon will never agree on the "cop bashing" issue because
IV) Centac obviously doesn't get that his "police state" attitude is the very problem we mere civilians detest, as several of HIS bretheren have pointed out.
V) Centac tries very hard to defend his point of view and does a very reasonable job...
BUT HIS POSITION AND THE DEFENSE THEREOF SCARE THE HELL OUT OF THE "civilians" ON THR, as well they should!
So let's give Centrac a break, he seems to be the only LE on his side of the debate. I bet he is a nice guy, too and I really mean that, he just doesn't see how his attitude scares the crap out of the rest of us.
Cosmoline
Member
If you put people away for a search WITHOUT PERMISSION based solely on an empty coffee can, I'd like to know the cases. It's possible they had crappy PD's working for them. But in my case, you wouldn't find jack. What you WOULD find is a pissed off attorney writing a lot of letters to your personnel department, writing letters to the editor, writing letters to you directly, looking up other people you've arrested for some chit chat, and generally trying to get a rise out of you so I can have a basis to sue you personally and get you removed.
However, in my experience bad cops and criminals are very much alike. They prey on the weak and the poor. They don't tend to pick on those of us lucky enough to have assets and status. And thankfully, most of the LEO's around here aren't ninjas or robocops. They know we're all on the same side. If you're the lone trooper in an area the size of a small state, having an "us vs. them" attitude isn't a good way to boost your career. So we all work together at the accident scenes, and they don't hassle people for a little pot or capping off some rounds at trees on their land. As a result I wouldn't hesitate for a second to report a meth lab or abuse, because I know they local guys won't break my jewels when they show up.
However, in my experience bad cops and criminals are very much alike. They prey on the weak and the poor. They don't tend to pick on those of us lucky enough to have assets and status. And thankfully, most of the LEO's around here aren't ninjas or robocops. They know we're all on the same side. If you're the lone trooper in an area the size of a small state, having an "us vs. them" attitude isn't a good way to boost your career. So we all work together at the accident scenes, and they don't hassle people for a little pot or capping off some rounds at trees on their land. As a result I wouldn't hesitate for a second to report a meth lab or abuse, because I know they local guys won't break my jewels when they show up.
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