Those Who Don't Like the Tavor

[montgomery381]

The Tavor has grabbed my interest. All the reviews are about the same, great gun with a bad trigger.

I'd like to hear from people who have had one and decided to get rid of it.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Aftermarket triggers are out now, but are not cheap.

Bullpups tend to not have great triggers, tough to run it that length and it be nice.

 

[basicblur]

All the reviews are about the same, great gun with a bad trigger.

I think Massad Ayoob said it best:
A light trigger pull is, more than anything else, a crutch for bad trigger technique.

It's all what you get used to, I guess (I grew up on DA revolvers) - I tend not to obsess over triggers.

I handed my Tavor to a friend that's new to the AR game (but I can tell he's been practicing) - he proceeded to put a round dead center on the plate at 50 yards, off hand, and didn't even complain about the trigger.

Mine was the first Tavor at the shop where I bought - the owner said he thought it was the best bullpup trigger he'd tried.

As you, I've found most reports these days seem to whine about the trigger - curious, as a number of early reports I saw said it was the best bullpup trigger out there (although some say that's akin to being the healthiest horse in the glue factory).

Can't tell you how I feel about the trigger under actual shooting conditions yet, as everybody else has shot it more than I have!

Hey, it's not really designed to be a long distance gun - if it gives results close to my ARs, I'll be more than happy.

 

[Rick R]

The trigger makes sense on a gun with an open trigger guard. Treat it like a D/A or Glockish trigger and you'll hit what you're aiming at.

I've made repeated hits on 3/4 torso steel targets out past 200 yards with no problems. Head hits on pepper poppers at 100 yards fast enough from prone that the last target of five is hit shortly after the first one falls to the ground.

If you go to the Bullpup forum I believe you find that about as many people have purchased a second Tavor as the number who have traded theirs off.

My biggest problems with my Tavor are finding enough ammo and range time to get to play with the little fellow. I know you wanted opinions from dissatisfied owners but just had to chime in anyway.

 

[Welding Rod]

I'll chime in too - I do plan to get a second one myself.

Just need to sell some other stuff for funding.

 

[barnbwt]

The Tavor reportedly has a 12lb trigger as shipped. There's compensation for bad trigger technique, and there's bad triggers.

This is the latter (that said, the one I messed with recently seemed a little bit better than that but not much, and still shouldered like a super soaker --but not like a cradled-fish a-la an FS2000 )

"I handed my Tavor to a friend that's new to the AR game (but I can tell he's been practicing) - he proceeded to put a round dead center on the plate at 50 yards, off hand, and didn't even complain about the trigger."
You mean an AR owner didn't complain about a terrible trigger? Well, it's not like they'd know any different --<ducks head>

TCB

 

[Nom de Forum]

like a cradled-fish
TCB

Best description of a FS2000 I have ever seen.

The Tavor is on my buy list but so is an aftermarket trigger. I feel no shame for needing a crutch.

 

[basicblur]

You mean an AR owner didn't complain about a terrible trigger?

Nah...and he doesn't even complain about his AR recoil.

I guess he just hasn't been on the 'Net long enough to realize what problems his AR has...

 

[HOOfan_1]

I think Massad Ayoob said it best:
A light trigger pull is, more than anything else, a crutch for bad trigger technique.

I can see the truth in that...but in the same way, anti-lock brakes and power steering are crutches.

Just because we can do without anti-lock brakes, power steering and a nice trigger.....why should we have to?

 

[basicblur]

Just because we can do without anti-lock brakes, power steering and a nice trigger.....why should we have to?

Because we tend to lose the human element (skill) in the equation.

And weren't insurance companies trying to raise rates a few years ago on cars with anti-lock brakes?

Iff'n I recall, they claimed studies showed that folks felt so comfortable with anti-lock brakes that they were trying to do too much with the vehicle to avoid an accident. They were simply pounding on the brakes, and trying to steer around an object - many ended up in worse shape (like rolling the vehicle) since they were asking too much of the tires.

'Course, that was probably just insurance companies looking for a reason to raise rates! :banghead:

 

[Welding Rod]

Haha, maybe I will open up a trigger manufacturing company. We will specialize in 15, 20, and 25 pound triggers. Each will have massive creep, and an extra rough surface finish on the contact surfaces. I could corner the market on serious, skilled shooters who believe high quality and well designed mechanisms are a crutch.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Because we tend to lose the human element (skill) in the equation.

Hey, we could go back to Flint Locks, with horrible lock time and delay from primer ignition to propellant ignition....that would REALLY require some skill.

IMO, those who truly have skill will outshoot those who are less skillful whether there is a crutch or not.

 

[Jim Watson]

Once upon a time you could get a trigger which was built to have a different weight of pull for every shot. It was meant to guarantee a "surprise break" for the target shooter. Not 12 lbs, of course.

 

[basicblur]

Haha, maybe I will open up a trigger manufacturing company. We will specialize in 15, 20, and 25 pound triggers. Each will have massive creep, and an extra rough surface finish on the contact surfaces. I could corner the market on serious, skilled shooters who believe high quality and well designed mechanisms are a crutch.

Or, when you open your trigger company, you could specialize in triggers with .00003 oz. pulls, and guns with absolutely no recoil - heck, you could design the trigger to look / work just liked those pushbutton controllers I see all the (whatever those war games on Xbox, Play Station are) folks are using.

That door swings both ways.

Looks like we have a whole new generation coming along that probably don't know what DA is!?

When ya get a little older, you'll learn moderation in all things ain't such a bad thang!

 

[Arizona_Mike]

The Tavor reportedly has a 12lb trigger as shipped. There's compensation for bad trigger technique, and there's bad triggers.

This is the latter

Precisely. Heavy like an open bolt sub gun and more creapy than a Mosin. I like Glocks and found the Tavor to have a horrendus trigger. As much as I like bulpups in concept, this execution really turned me off. I would love to try an after-market trigger.

Mike

 

[breakingcontact]

I used to be in that camp "triggers dont matter", until I started competing a little. When shooting on a shot timer and shooting fast, it does start to matter.

That being said I have heard the Tavor has a decent trigger...for a bullpup.

 

[silicosys4]

Or, when you open your trigger company, you could specialize in triggers with .00003 oz. pulls, and guns with absolutely no recoil - heck, you could design the trigger to look / work just liked those pushbutton controllers I see all the (whatever those war games on Xbox, Play Station are) folks are using.

That door swings both ways.

Looks like we have a whole new generation coming along that probably don't know what DA is!?

When ya get a little older, you'll learn moderation in all things ain't such a bad thang!

Um...serious shooters who shoot DA for accuracy are all mostly using a very slicked up, tuned up DA pull. I have a few tuned DA revolvers and they are not your average factory S&W trigger.
Bad triggers are bad triggers, and I have yet to see a competitor purposefully using a subpar trigger.
Until they come up with a bullpup that has a decent trigger from the factory, I'm not interested. Since there are aftermarket triggers for many bullpup designs that improve the trigger, I have to ask why these bullpups are being designed with terrible triggers? Its not impossible to design a decent trigger, apparently.... Which begs the question,
Is there a serious professional competitor using a bullpup for any accuracy oriented competitions? I think the reason we don't see great triggers being a priority is that bullpups aren't suited for roles requiring extreme or long range accuracy.

 

[montgomery381]

This has turned into a trigger discussion. For those of you who have actually shot a Tavor how does the trigger compare to a stock Sig.

When I started this thread I was looking to hear about any other flaws that aren't normally noted.

Any personal experiences, though, are appreciated.

 

[RCArms.com]

Um...serious shooters who shoot DA for accuracy are all mostly using a very slicked up, tuned up DA pull. I have a few tuned DA revolvers and they are not your average factory S&W trigger.
Bad triggers are bad triggers, and I have yet to see a competitor purposefully using a subpar trigger.
Until they come up with a bullpup that has a decent trigger from the factory, I'm not interested. Since there are aftermarket triggers for many bullpup designs that improve the trigger, I have to ask why these bullpups are being designed with terrible triggers? Its not impossible to design a decent trigger, apparently.... Which begs the question,
Is there a serious professional competitor using a bullpup for any accuracy oriented competitions? I think the reason we don't see great triggers being a priority is that bullpups aren't suited for roles requiring extreme or long range accuracy.

Why would anyone take a bullpup that was designed and optimized for CQB, urban fighting , and mobilized infantry to a long range accuracy oriented match.

Different jobs requires different tools.

I have a Tavor in my personal collection and really enjoy it. Its excellent with an EOTech 512 out to 200 yards. I'm still running the factory trigger, but will be trying one of the aftermarket trigger once available.

If I know I'm headed to a 300 yard match, I'm bringing a different rifle and that's just fine. I would not expect the Tavor to excel at 300 yds the way I have it configured.

 

[montgomery381]

For those of you who have one, other than the overall length, what do you prefer about the Tavor over an AR?

 

[Welding Rod]

The shooting ergonomics is the main thing for me. The Tavor is easy to steady while shooting standing and sitting, and especially prone and kneeling.

Than big hand guard can be used to good effect to stabilize the gun against the off hand wrist and forearm when in the various shooting positions.

I also like the extra jumbo sized bolt catch and mag release levers.

I don't know where all the gas goes in the Tavor, but the inside of the gun does stay admirably clean.

I like the standard QD sling swivel pockets on the gun.

I like my ARs and will not getting rid of them anytime soon. The Tavor is heavy compared to a light profile barreled AR. While the firepower is equal, in heft and build the AR reminds me of a fighter aircraft while the Tavor makes me think of an A10... or tennis shoes v. work boots.

 

[Welding Rod]

Or, when you open your trigger company, you could specialize in triggers with .00003 oz. pulls, and guns with absolutely no recoil - heck, you could design the trigger to look / work just liked those pushbutton controllers I see all the (whatever those war games on Xbox, Play Station are) folks are using.

That door swings both ways.

Looks like we have a whole new generation coming along that probably don't know what DA is!?

When ya get a little older, you'll learn moderation in all things ain't such a bad thang!

Haha, well done!

Seriously though, I think 5 to 7 pounds, or even 8 pounds would be a reasonable range. 12 pounds is ALOT on a rifle trigger given that rifles are sometimes called on for precise shoots at medium to long range, unlike a service handgun. Plus a creeping single stage 12 pound pull is different than a typical double action revolver pull where the trigger can be "staged" immediately prior to the point of the final break.

 

[basicblur]

For those of you who have one, other than the overall length, what do you prefer about the Tavor over an AR?

Length is about it for me, but I can't really complain about anything else on the Tavor? Maybe a slight change to the charging handle operation - in a certain configuration, the handle flops around - it would be nice if the handle stayed locked in position at all times.
Flyin' on memory (and I ain't gonna fish it out to check), but I think when the bolt is open and the gun is empty, the charging handle kinda flops around instead of being locked in position.

I was thinking about an SBR, but I have the additional problem (ATF costs aside) of living on the state line - live in VA, gun club in NC - I'd have to fill out yet another form for permission to transport the gun to the gun club.
Figured I'd say to heck with all this ATF stuff for SBRs and just get the Tavor and be done with it.

Mine probably weighed slightly more than my ARs, but a lot of the weight was to the rear, so a lot of that extra weight was shouldered - not like having the weight hanging out in space, and thus more tiring to hold (like an AR).

Well, it was on the light side - I added the MOR sight (it's just as heavy as folks claimed it was) and that sucker really piles on the ounces!

AFA weight, it's probably a more of an apples to apples comparison if you compare the Tavor to a piston AR (since the Tavor has a piston). If you compare it to a piston AR, then the Tavor is probably lighter, sometimes by a fair degree (at least based on the piston ARs I've handled).

 

[basicblur]

AFA the trigger, I'm sure most already know you can remove the OEM second spring and reduce the trigger pull weight?

'Net results being what they are, I'm hearing it can lower the pull by about 1/2 - have heard varying reports about the trigger resetting every time if you remove the 2nd spring.
If reports are true, I've read the 2nd spring was requested by Israeli military to ensure a positive reset when dealing with extremely dirty conditions.
(Don't they know this is a bench rest rifle?)

I don't worry 'bout the trigger too much - I just shoot the darn thing (or at least I will when I catch up on my other projects).

 

[Rick R]

I started out wanting a SBR but was deterred by the price and wait for a Tax stamp. Also traveling with a SBR is a PITA if you cross state lines and probably even if you manage to get noticed by most local police officers who may not be up on NFA law. Remember that you might not break any laws but a bad traffic accident might result in the LEO inventorying the contents of your vehicle while you ride to the hospital in the ambulance.

After having the ergonomics of the Tavor explained by the IWI law enforcement representative at an outdoor show I was intrigued. After shooting through a three day/1,200 round carbine class I'm sold. I kept up with the guys shooting some high end AR15s and now feel pretty confident in my abilities with the little pup. Mine sports a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4x scope with a #4/red dot reticle.

It's not a "long range rifle" but as far as I'm concerned it's plenty capable to shoot out to 300 or more yards. Pretty much the same as any 16" AR in real field conditions.