Thoughts on 11 O'Clock Cross-Draw Carry?

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Tribal

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I was thinking about the possibility of carrying a Beretta 85 in an 11 o'clock OWB cross-draw position, heavily canted so as to almost be a reverse of SOB. For the moment, let's leave caliber wars aside: I know .380 ACP isn't a fantastic round. I'm also not interested in SmartCarry; I'm not down with 12 o'clock carry and, furthermore, this is something I'd want to be able to open-carry if necessary.

I'm of average-slim build and this would be worn under an untucked casual shirt. My thinking is that it would be faster to draw (with practice), be less likely to print, and wouldn't be hampered by sitting in a car or chair. It seems to me that with enough cant and with a high ride, sitting down shouldn't be affected. A good belt would also be essential. As far as I know, the holster would have to be custom-made.

What are your thoughts on this? The closest I've found is the Carjacker Crossdraw, but I'm looking for something meant for walking around and that has a thumbsnap.
 
The problem with most cross-draw holsters is that you have to take your belt almost all the way off to get it on and off, unless you wear your belt backwards. The Carjacker doesn’t have this problem, but as you mention, it doesn’t have any manual retention either. Another option is a paddle holster. The downside to the paddle though is that in the cross-draw position the paddle digs into your middle when you’re seated.

I open carry my Sig 1911 in a Blackhawk Serpa because it has the button retention feature. This holster can be configured into a cross-draw type and it comes with a paddle, so see if they make one for your gun. I don’t carry it cross-draw because I’m not into the “Walker Texas Ranger” look I’d have with the 1911.
 
While carry while seated in the car is something we all should work out, the concern I have with cross draw is that if you're on the street you can be jammed by a quick thinking assailant on the draw much easier than 1-6.
 
Swop too!

IMHO a cross draw of this nature would be great for inserting pistol into as you enter your vehicle, perfect.
 
I'm thinking that the way a men's button-up shirt is cut, with the left flap overlapping the right, would make for an easier draw than having to hitch up your shirt (obviously a polo shirt negates this). This would only be for summer carry. My main thinking for a heavily-canted OWB cross-draw is that no part of a compact gun would be digging into you and that the butt and width of such a gun would be more easily concealed if it were pressed against you than hanging out. SOB works for this, but it's harder to get to, prints more easily, and can hurt your spine or kidneys if you land on it.
 
I carry cross-draw a lot simply due to the fact I have a cranky shoulder joint. There are days I couldn't draw strong-side even if I wanted to. The adjustable cant paddle holsters work well for this and I also use a Hume JIT slide...
 
Bill Jordan spoke at length about crossdraw in "No second place winner". A couple of the downsides he mentioned were that you have to sweep a large area with your muzzel when you draw and it is not as easily retained. There were probably others, but I don't recall them offhand.
 
For car carry, perhaps. That's presuming the car jacker will be attacking you (as the driver) from the drivers side of the car. If he's coming from the passengers side, you're at a huge disadvantage now.

For out of car carry, I guess if ALL of the people that you are sweeping when you draw your gun don't mind, why not?:what:

:banghead:
 
For out of car carry, I guess if ALL of the people that you are sweeping when you draw your gun don't mind, why not?
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LOL, is this a case of it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission? :)
 
Another problem with cross draw in close encounters is retention. I fail to see how having the butt of your firearm presented to the BG so he can readily obtain a grip and operate any retention mechanism is an advantage. If you make the usual moves to "get off the X" you're reaching across and against your own body movement, a terribly awkward thing to do. Absent medical problems like a bad shoulder joint, crossdraw presents more disadvantages than advantages. I also agree with the point about sweeping others with a cross draw.

Just yesterday I had to require an older gentleman to change from cross draw to simply shooting from low ready and not using his holster while on the firing line in a CCW class. Every time he handled his weapon, he was sweeping the whole line to his left even though it was unloaded. I cautioned him about this before we started the course of fire and he assured me that he would be "careful". "Careful" went out the window when he loaded the first time and tried to return it to the holster. After that, I took him off the line, had a short chat and we agreed that he would shoot the course from low ready. I believe he is currently re-evaluating his selection of carry method. The first rule is never point your gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. Cross draw makes that rule much harder to obey, especially under stress.

The same thing applies to shoulder holsters, and I don't allow them on the firing line for the same reason. There are, however, practical advantages to a shoulder holster that don't exist for a belt holster. If it's on the belt, it should be on the strong side absent some medical reason.
 
I think 11 o'clock is pretty practical and fast in real world self defense applications, such as if you're sitting on a bench minding your own business and get jumped by mugger(s), strong side ( at least around the 3-6 positions) would probably be relatively slow and awkward.
 
Xdraw is my EDC method as well. I've found that from a bladed body position I naturally draw the sidearm straight from belt to target without sweeping to the left. As far as retention, I only use holsters with a thumbsnap and can use my weakside arm as well as strongside to fend off groping hands. My .02 worth on subject.
 
Cross-draw was never allowed in any of the MCPL, Tactical Shooting or Advanced Tactical Shooting courses I have taken. Many of the reasons have already been noted. However, the primary concern was the fact that one "paints" one's own arm while drawing and while returning to the holster. Too much risk of accidentially shoooting one's own arm.
 
Carrying in that position, you're going to get tired of the gun constantly bumping into and snagging on stuff, even concealed under a shirt.
 
the primary concern was the fact that one "paints" one's own arm while drawing and while returning to the holster
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That's true as well. You can overcome that by training to bring the weak hand to your chest every time you draw, but you can't overcome sweeping people you don't intend to shoot with the muzzle of a loaded weapon from a cross draw. How well your training will hold up under stress is a good question however. What happens when the weak hand is occupied with, say, pushing a child down behind cover? No way to draw without sweeping yourself and others then. All in all, a bad idea for EDC. It may have specialized applications for vehicle crewmen and the like, but for normal use, others with far more expertise than me have spoken.

Another disadvantage is that the pistol must necessarily be closer to the opening of any cover garment, thus resulting in more opportunity for compromise. I usually carry in a belt holster between 8 and 9 o'clock on my strong (left) side. For a right hander that would equate to carrying between 3 and 4 o'clock. A decent holster with the right carry angle puts you within your "elbow sweep" for retention purposes and yet is very discrete.

Change that to a cross draw and I'd be carrying between 2 and 3 o'clock as a lefty, right handers would be between 9 and 10 o'clock(unless you're incredibly skinny and/or have unusually long arms). Too close to the opening of a vest or jacket. If carry in a vehicle the majority of the time, cross draw would make a lot of sense (maybe for truckers or delivery drivers?).

I'm not saying that there aren't situations where cross draw is appropriate, I'm saying that for normal carry it has several disadvantages and requires you to remember extra stuff under stress. Ya'll who use it, hey, it's a free country. I don't.
 
Quote:Bill Jordan spoke at length about crossdraw in "No second place winner". A couple of the downsides he mentioned were that you have to sweep a large area with your muzzel when you draw and it is not as easily retained.: end quote

IIRC Bill Jordan's style was to square up to the threat. This requires a 90 degree sweep from crossdraw.
Ed McGivern spoke of crossdraw as being the fastest on target. He would turn 90 degrees to his target before his draw & do sort of a sideways speed rock.
No links, just recollections from some clips I've seen.
 
I prefer cross-draw despite the problems for one good reason. If you carry 'strong side', and that arm is disabled (for whatever reason) try getting ahold of your gun with your weak hand. You'll find it's darn near impossible.

With a cross draw, you can still get the gun in action quite quickly. Yes, you will sweep across part of your body---but we're talking life and death here, and an exception to the normal way of doing things. At least you'll still have a gun in hand!
 
LV said:

I prefer cross-draw despite the problems for one good reason. If you carry 'strong side', and that arm is disabled (for whatever reason) try getting ahold of your gun with your weak hand. You'll find it's darn near impossible.
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That is why I carry a G19C on my left, a G17 on my right and a P3AT on an ankle. But, I have one advantage: I am truly ambidextrous. This how our Advanced Tactical Instructor taught us to carry. He specifically advised us to carry as many pistols and as much ammo as we could. He carries 5 (five) pistols.

Of course, I don't carry like that 24/7! I only carry that heavily in hot zones! You know, like when I would pick my kid up from the theator after seeing Barney! Okay, now I'm just tired...but Barney is one sick puppy!
 
That is why I carry a G19C on my left, a G17 on my right and a P3AT on an ankle.
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I have a S&W 642 in a Galco pocket holster that I drop in my right pocket when I'm in a hot zone. That's what I carry for backup on duty, too.
 
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