rbernie
Contributing Member
Pretty much. I think that the cost of materials to make a box of 303R or 8x57 hover around $4.50/20 rounds....
Thoughts on a millsurp rifle
- Thread starter mhdishere
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english kanigit
Member
Are you guys Finnished debating?
Alright, this is from my last trip out to the local rifle range. 100 yards, bench rest, iron sights with some nasty old surplus ammo (don't know the make). If my eyes were worth a stink I'm sure I could do better.
I got my finnsh mosin for $80 and I believe I will have it for a long time to come.
Just one more thing, these targets are friggin' awesome!! I was at Dick's Sporting Goods looking for paintball stuff and just happened to see them. The yellow and the black contrast very well on a bright, sunny kansas day.
Alright, this is from my last trip out to the local rifle range. 100 yards, bench rest, iron sights with some nasty old surplus ammo (don't know the make). If my eyes were worth a stink I'm sure I could do better.
I got my finnsh mosin for $80 and I believe I will have it for a long time to come.
Just one more thing, these targets are friggin' awesome!! I was at Dick's Sporting Goods looking for paintball stuff and just happened to see them. The yellow and the black contrast very well on a bright, sunny kansas day.
mainmech48
Member
FWIW, there is a real inexpensive alternative to reforming .284 Win. brass in order to reload for 7.5x55 Swiss. I bought 200 rds of Portugese-made FNM brand 7.5x55 ammo from a dealer on Gun Broker for $70/200 + Shipping. Came out to about $7.40/box.
While it isn't nearly as accurate as the Swiss match ammo referred to above, the brass is very good and it's boxer primed. Dies are available from several sources. Least expensive would probably be the two-die set from Lee at about $22.00. I can't reload it for less than what I can buy 7.62x51 NATO surplus for, but it's still a bunch cheaper than GP11 surplus or commercial 7.5 Swiss.
Speaking of triggers, the general run of K-31s have to be among the best two-stage military outfits ever fielded. Light, smooth take-up and mine breaks cleanly at 3.65# on a Lyman digital gauge.
While it isn't nearly as accurate as the Swiss match ammo referred to above, the brass is very good and it's boxer primed. Dies are available from several sources. Least expensive would probably be the two-die set from Lee at about $22.00. I can't reload it for less than what I can buy 7.62x51 NATO surplus for, but it's still a bunch cheaper than GP11 surplus or commercial 7.5 Swiss.
Speaking of triggers, the general run of K-31s have to be among the best two-stage military outfits ever fielded. Light, smooth take-up and mine breaks cleanly at 3.65# on a Lyman digital gauge.
Swedes & Schmidt-Rubins
The sweetest milsurps are the Swede Mausers (96, 38, 96/38) & K31 Schmidt-Rubin, IMO.
The Swede will run a little north of $200, unless you get a deal like I did last year: 96/38 for $160.
The K31 will cost ~$100 before shipping & FFL x-fer, $100 on the nose if you have a 03 C&R.
You won't outgrow the Swede or the K31. They are accurate, highest-quality milsurps, with terrific two-stage triggers. I shoot sub 2MOA with issue irons...and my marksmanship is nothing to write home about.
The only drawback of both is ammo cost. Commercial & milsurp ammmo is available, but it will cost more than milsurp 8x57. The milsurp 7.5Swiss GP11 round is match-quality.
I like blasting away as much as anybody with cheap rifles & cheap milsurps & I own other milsurps and like them all for their particular attributes.
If you really mean:
Then a K31 or Swede is the best best, IMO. Blasting is fun, but a rifle acurate enough to hit at longer range won't lose its luster after all the milk-jugs have been blown to bits.
If I could have only two milsurps, my Swede & Swiss rifles would be them. If I could have only one...I'd probably cry.
The sweetest milsurps are the Swede Mausers (96, 38, 96/38) & K31 Schmidt-Rubin, IMO.
The Swede will run a little north of $200, unless you get a deal like I did last year: 96/38 for $160.
The K31 will cost ~$100 before shipping & FFL x-fer, $100 on the nose if you have a 03 C&R.
You won't outgrow the Swede or the K31. They are accurate, highest-quality milsurps, with terrific two-stage triggers. I shoot sub 2MOA with issue irons...and my marksmanship is nothing to write home about.
The only drawback of both is ammo cost. Commercial & milsurp ammmo is available, but it will cost more than milsurp 8x57. The milsurp 7.5Swiss GP11 round is match-quality.
I like blasting away as much as anybody with cheap rifles & cheap milsurps & I own other milsurps and like them all for their particular attributes.
If you really mean:
Then a K31 or Swede is the best best, IMO. Blasting is fun, but a rifle acurate enough to hit at longer range won't lose its luster after all the milk-jugs have been blown to bits.
If I could have only two milsurps, my Swede & Swiss rifles would be them. If I could have only one...I'd probably cry.
I won't get into what I have cause if my wife or the feds knew I'd be in trouble, but a Finn Mod 39 is at the top of my short list for a shooter. It has the best of the Nagants with the best combined features of a 98k and 03. Mine is a 1941 VKT that most likely has a history few can imagine. The Russians mass produced guns that would shoot adequately in the hands of untrained peasants. The Finns hand crafted rifles designed to be deadly in the hands of a citizen soldier with intent to defend his homeland. They can be found under $200.
rk
rk
Getting 4.) and 5.) together kills a lot of the options.
The one rifle that really satisfies all of the conditions is the Mosin Nagant.
1) Bolt action, full sized battle rifle The 91/30 is the longest of the rifles, but consider that the M38 and M44 carbines have 20" barrels, more of a rifle than a carbine. At any rate:
2) Fires a full-power, 30-ish caliber cartridge The 7.62x54R fits the bill nicely.
3) Reasonably accurate (minute of pie-plate) If you mean at 100 yards, event he roughest of Mosins that I've seen will hold this. If you want better, don't order online, go to a store where you can inspect the rifle. Look closely at the bore if you want a shooter. Some of the best bores I have are on Mosins with really rough wood, so outside appearance is NOT soemthing you can judge it by. Also, look for a counterbored rifle.
Now, a lot of guys will laugh, but the Russians counterbored the barrel when the crown got messed up. It was cheaper and easier than recrowning, and leaves a nice crown inset into the barrel, with the end of the barrel acting as a protector. Counterbored barrels will tend to outshoot the "better" fully-rifled barrels. This was a normal rearsenaling feature and is not a Bubba job.
4) Moderately cheap (under $200) You could buy 2 or 3 NICE Mosins for $200. With the 91/30s you also usually get an accessory kit which has the bayonet (these guns were sighted in with the bayonet attached and may need to be resighted if you don't want to mount the bayonet), an ammo pouch, oiler bottle, multi-tool, cleaning rod handle for the (should be) mounted cleaning rod.
5) Available ammo Surplus ammo is dirt cheap. Commercial ammo is dirt cheap. Brand new Wolf is $8/20 here and the better, Barnaul ammo is $7/20.
That's the best deal around.
Now, if you're willing to go over on 4) Moderately cheap (under $200), a GOOD Mauser will fill all of the above, and the ammo is dirt cheap.
If you're willing to go over on 4) Moderately cheap (under $200) AND 5) Available ammo, then the No4 Mk1*, Mk1/2, Mk1/3 or Mk2 Lee Enfield is the way to go.
The Enfields out there for real cheap that I've seen are REALLY rough, I'd stay away from them. But if you're willing to throw maybe another $100 into the rifle, you can get some really fine No4 rifles. The best I have are from BDL Ltd . The surplus ammo has pretty much dried up for now, and I'd recommend handloading over buying the fairly expensive commercial ammo.
Case for the additional expense of an Enfield:
1.) The slickest, quickest action of any battle rifle, better than most commercial rifles.
2.) 60 degree bolt throw rather than 90 degree.
3.) 10 round magazine capacity
4.) Stripper clips readily available.
5.) Finest battle sights of any bolt action rifle.
6.) No-drill, no-tap scope mounts are cheap.
7.) All of mine have been excellent shooters. Think pie plate at 300 yards.
But honestly, if you want an inexpensive shooter that has modest accuracy, the Mosin is your ticket. Just beware, they tend to multiply in the safe when you're not looking.
Black Snowman
Member
My vote would be take $100 for the K31, and the other $100 to get into reloading.
ReadyontheRight
Member
My $0.02:
The two best:
K31 - Inexpensive and you can get excellent Swiss surplus ammo that's easily match grade (at least for me). Reloadable brass and commercial ammo are hard to find.
Swedish Mauser - More expensive, not sure where to get "match" grade factory ammo but you can find reloadable brass and commercial hunting ammo a lot cheaper.
Mosin Nagant - Inexpensive to buy and shoot. Probably as accuare as you need for range work, but not as accuare as the two above.
Swedish Mausers have been increasing in price. K31s will someday soon go up in price. There are a LOT of M/Ns out there right now.
My recommendation: Short-term: Order a K31 now, wait until you see a sub-$70 or even sub- $50 M/N Long-term: Keep your eyes peeled for a sub-$200 Swedish Mauser.
The two best:
K31 - Inexpensive and you can get excellent Swiss surplus ammo that's easily match grade (at least for me). Reloadable brass and commercial ammo are hard to find.
Swedish Mauser - More expensive, not sure where to get "match" grade factory ammo but you can find reloadable brass and commercial hunting ammo a lot cheaper.
Mosin Nagant - Inexpensive to buy and shoot. Probably as accuare as you need for range work, but not as accuare as the two above.
Swedish Mausers have been increasing in price. K31s will someday soon go up in price. There are a LOT of M/Ns out there right now.
My recommendation: Short-term: Order a K31 now, wait until you see a sub-$70 or even sub- $50 M/N Long-term: Keep your eyes peeled for a sub-$200 Swedish Mauser.
milsurp rifle
When it comes to accuracy, inexpensive ammo and rifle under $200, you have but 2 choices. Mosin Nagant and Mauser. In each category I would recommend a Finnish M39 mosin nagant and a Yugo M48A or M24/47 or a Czech 98/22 (stay away from the Yugo M48). These rifles are known for their accuracy and the ammo can be had for under 10 cents per round. My favorite is the Finnish M39. I now have 5 of them and they all shoot under 2 MOA with surplus ammo.
Don't get me wrong, I like K31s, Enfields, and Swedes and other rifles mentioned, but ammo isn't exactly cheap for these firearms. The Russian M91/30s and carbines (M38 and M44) are a crap shoot. Some are great shooters and some are not. I have heard very good things about the Mosin M91/59 carbines as good shooters but have never had one. Allans Armory has these for sale at pretty good prices.
When it comes to accuracy, inexpensive ammo and rifle under $200, you have but 2 choices. Mosin Nagant and Mauser. In each category I would recommend a Finnish M39 mosin nagant and a Yugo M48A or M24/47 or a Czech 98/22 (stay away from the Yugo M48). These rifles are known for their accuracy and the ammo can be had for under 10 cents per round. My favorite is the Finnish M39. I now have 5 of them and they all shoot under 2 MOA with surplus ammo.
Don't get me wrong, I like K31s, Enfields, and Swedes and other rifles mentioned, but ammo isn't exactly cheap for these firearms. The Russian M91/30s and carbines (M38 and M44) are a crap shoot. Some are great shooters and some are not. I have heard very good things about the Mosin M91/59 carbines as good shooters but have never had one. Allans Armory has these for sale at pretty good prices.
Sam Adams
Member
Gd
Which ammo works best in your M39's?
Which ammo works best in your M39's?
Sam Adams
Member
I have both a K31 and an M39. Both rifles:
1) Are bolties that are certainly full-sized. The Finn is a beefed-up version of the Russian M-N 91, itself not exactly a delicate piece of hardware.
2) Fire .30 caliber rounds.
3) Have a reputation as the most accurate rifles of the WW2 era. The K31 is probably more accurate, but it didn't see combat (except for maybe being used to shoot a few Krauts who occasionally crossed the border). The M39 had a lot to do with the Finns taking the Russians at a 15- or 20-to-1 ratio in the Winter War of 1940-41. Both will shoot under 2 MOA with ease (assuming one in decent condition, and that you do your part
), and 1.0-1.5 MOA is not unheard of.4) My K31 cost $120, and it was hand-picked by Allan at Allan's Armory. My M39 cost $193.99, incl. shipping, from Wholesale Guns & Ammo. It cost that much because it is made on a pre-1899 receiver and is in excellent condition. I could've shaved about $40 off of the price for a gun of similar condition if it was a post-1898.
5) The ammo is nearly being given away for the M39 - Czech silvertip (reputed to be quite accurate) cost me $2.50/box, but I only bought a couple at a gunshow. By the caseload it is around $0.07/round. The K31's GP-11 is quite available but, being match-grade ammo, runs around $0.40/round. Reloading is easy (Graf's cases are about $28/100, and it uses .308 bullets), and cheapens the rounds to about $0.20 per.
Go with either one, as they are both excellent and cheap rifles with a history.
Cosmoline
Member
The biggest drawback of the K-31 is the expense of GP-100. It's awesome ammo, possibly the best standard grade ball ammo every made, period. But it's not being made anymore and the Portugese stuff you sometimes see is not nearly as good.
A good compromise is a Finnish Mosin, rather than a Ruskie. You can still find M-39's in near mint condition for under $200, and they will shoot far better than Russian 91/30's. An average 91/30 may give you a five or six inch group at 100 meters, but the M-39's I've owned have all done 3MOA or better. Some are as good as the Swiss or Swedes.
A good compromise is a Finnish Mosin, rather than a Ruskie. You can still find M-39's in near mint condition for under $200, and they will shoot far better than Russian 91/30's. An average 91/30 may give you a five or six inch group at 100 meters, but the M-39's I've owned have all done 3MOA or better. Some are as good as the Swiss or Swedes.
Great thread...and timely as well. I sent off the app for my C&R license a bit over a month ago and would be asking the same questions. Once I get it, the first item on my list is going to be a No4Mk1 Enfield. The stocks on most of the rifles that I've seen are in ok to what I would call poor condition. Are there any sources of new wood stocks or even synthetic stocks for these rifles?
Thanks,
Abe
Thanks,
Abe
FWIW, Wolf is now producing brass cased, boxer primed 7.5x55 and it should be on the market in a couple of months...it's not on their website yet, but email them if you want to confirm...I did. I don't know what the $$ will be, but it's bound to be cheaper than GP11 surplus. I doubt that it'll be as accurate, but cheap plinking ammo is always welcome in my book.
In the last two days, I've handled:
Five Trapdoor Springfields
Two Rolling Blocks
Half a dozen original 1873 or 1892 Winchesters
Five or six Krag-Jorgensens (most sporterized)
Upwards of 15 Springfields or Springfield-actioned sporters
Three M1's
Two M1A's
A Valmet-made AK (which I hadn't seen in 10 years)
Four Mosin-Nagants including an M44 (Polish) which is the best-appearing M-N I've ever seen.
Three Lee-Enfields at least.
A Schmidt-Rubin
A Lebel-Berthier
A MAS49/56 7.5mm semi-auto
A couple I can't even remember right now but you don't usually see.
A half dozen WW1/WW2 or Spanish Civil War era Mausers.
Six or seven M1 carbines, including a Postal Meter.
More SKS's than you can shake a bottle of Vodka at, including a Tula Arsenal 1952 in excellent condition.
There are times when working for a gun shop with four thousand guns in it is a VERY VERY good thing.
Five Trapdoor Springfields
Two Rolling Blocks
Half a dozen original 1873 or 1892 Winchesters
Five or six Krag-Jorgensens (most sporterized)
Upwards of 15 Springfields or Springfield-actioned sporters
Three M1's
Two M1A's
A Valmet-made AK (which I hadn't seen in 10 years)
Four Mosin-Nagants including an M44 (Polish) which is the best-appearing M-N I've ever seen.
Three Lee-Enfields at least.
A Schmidt-Rubin
A Lebel-Berthier
A MAS49/56 7.5mm semi-auto
A couple I can't even remember right now but you don't usually see.
A half dozen WW1/WW2 or Spanish Civil War era Mausers.
Six or seven M1 carbines, including a Postal Meter.
More SKS's than you can shake a bottle of Vodka at, including a Tula Arsenal 1952 in excellent condition.
There are times when working for a gun shop with four thousand guns in it is a VERY VERY good thing.
Ammo for M39
I have two favorites for the M39. They are Albanian and Czech silver tip. Both seem to be very consistent and cheap! The Albanian looks cheaply made with crimp marks and irregular sized rims but it doesn't affect performance. I have had good luck with the Hungarian heavy ball yellow tip but the rounds tend to shoot on average 4-5" higher at 100 yards. Most of my M39's tend to shoot a little high to begin with.
I have two favorites for the M39. They are Albanian and Czech silver tip. Both seem to be very consistent and cheap! The Albanian looks cheaply made with crimp marks and irregular sized rims but it doesn't affect performance. I have had good luck with the Hungarian heavy ball yellow tip but the rounds tend to shoot on average 4-5" higher at 100 yards. Most of my M39's tend to shoot a little high to begin with.
DMK
Member
No doubt the Hungarian Yellow tip shoots higher. It's like 174gr, while the Czech silvertip is 147gr.
Hungarian LPZ (also silvertip sometimes, depending on the year) is 147gr. and will shoot lower and is also excellent ammo. It comes in 440 round green "spam cans".
I agree with the Czech silvertip being very accurate. I bought three 1200 round cases of this stuff just in case the supply dries up.
My best accuracy with surplus ammo in my M39s comes from Yugo 180gr. It comes in 15 round light brown cardboard boxes that have a white label on the end. The cartridges are shiny polished brass and it looks very pretty. It's very hard to find anymore, but if you come across any at a gunshow, snap it up!
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