Thoughts on an AR with backup sights and not a QD scope mount?

[Macchina]

I have a Ruger MPR coming and plan to mount a Leopold 3-9x40 on it. I also have Magpul flip up BUIS coming and plan to mount both on the rifle. This is and will be my only AR and would like to use the gun for range shooting, coyote hunting, and since this is my only semi-auto rifle it would be the rifle I'd take with us if we ever had to leave in an emergency.

My plan is to mount the scope in a cantilever mount and never remove it, I think a standard (non QD) mount would be the most sturdy and far cheaper. The only issue is if the scope was damaged during a hunt or emergency I'd have to dig out my pliers to access my BUIS.

Is this a common way to go or would I be crazy? Should I just splurge on QD mounts even if I plan to never remove the scope under normal use?

 

[Riomouse911]

Honestly, there is probably no need for BUIS on a scope-mounted AR if the scope can't be removed, unless they are offset at an angle that clears the scope. Especially for a high-magnification scope like a 3x9, because co-witnessing them through a hunting scope is far tougher than with a 1.2x or 1.5x tactical model or a dot. Looking through a damaged scope to try to use the sights would be just about impossible because of the visual distortion and blockage of the iron sights by the scope mounts, scope turrets and body, cracked lenses, out of whack internals, etc. Plus Murphy's
Law will probably strike when you leave your screwdriver/Leatherman tool on the workbench as you packed up and drove to the shooting site so you can't pull your fixed-mount scope if it breaks.

All of my AR's that are currently wearing red dots are set up with QD mounts and GG&G BUIS, just in case I need to pull the dot off and use the irons.
QD mounts aren't all that expensive, and will make your life much easier should you drop your AR, bang the scope against a rock, or otherwise damage it.

My Colt Accurized AR-15 rifle wore a 4.5x14x50 on a 1.5" fixed riser with no BUIS. It also had a weighted A-2 stock and bipod mounted on the free float tube. This was my heavy 24" varmint/target rig and I never planned on using it with iron sights even if the scope failed. (I sold it a little while back.)

 

[grampajack]

I think backup irons are really overrated. It's one thing if you're going into combat, but quite another for civilian applications. I would simply mount the scope however you want and forget about the backups altogether.

Even if we were talking about a self defense setup instead of a hunting rig, the idea of removing an optic and flipping up the iron sights during a self defense encounter is pretty ludicrous in my opinion. I don't think irons are necessarily a bad idea for self defense setups, but if a person is going to bother in the first place, then the way to go is to have fixed irons cowitnessed through a decently roomy red dot, like an Aimpoint Comp series. That way there's no transition.

 

[tarosean]

if it doesn't require batteries, there is probably a .001 percent chance that your would ever have to remove it. Roughly the equivalent to you waking around Salt Lake City with shark repellant on.

 

[Varminterror]

Back up irons are EXTREMELY over-rated for a hunting rifle.

But yes, it's very common for guys to rely upon a non-QD mount on top of back up irons. Many of these have 1/2" nuts with one or two holes drilled into the side, so a guy can either use a multi-tool, pliers, the end of an allen wrench, a 1/2" open end wrench inlet under the butt plate, even the tip of a bullet in a pinch. I have a couple with this set up myself.

I have other rifles for which I've kept a Bushnell TRS or Burris FF + riser in my pack, which can be installed quickly and easily, and returns to zero well enough to be serviceable.

Keep in mind - any spill you might take with sufficient energy to damage your scope quite likely can cause other shifts or damage, so a guy may need to take a few shots just to confirm the irons.

 

[LoonWulf]

Im with the other guys, with a scope i dont have any real use for buis. If you want them, or it makes you feel better to have them, they dont weigh that much and are pretty unobtrusive. And being able to access them quickly isnt super important imo, so a toolless mount isnt needed.

I do use them anytime i get the urge to put electronic sights on my ar, mostly cause i can never remember to turn the damn things off.

 

[ms6852]

BUIS will not do you any good if you do not practice shooting with them.

 

[Varminterror]

BUIS will not do you any good if you do not practice shooting with them.

But in fairness - they ARE rifle sights - not differential equations...

 

[CZ9shooter]

Offset folding sights? Never used them myself, but they look like they'd accomplish what the OP is looking for. Might be kinda neat too.

 

[jmr40]

I wouldn't spend the extra cash for QD rings. Any of the rings that can be removed with a screwdriver come off pretty fast and I always have a leatherman or other multi-tool in my pack. All of my AR's have folding BUIS mounted under the rear of conventional scopes. I can have the scope off in under 1 minute with the multi-tool. It might take 30 seconds with QD mounts. I'll never be in a situation where an extra 30 seconds will matter. I've never had a problem with them returning to zero after remounting the scope either.

That said, I doubt if I'll ever NEED the BUIS. I pull off the scope from time to time and shoot with them at the range just for kicks and practice. But a quality scope is going to be just as reliable.

 

[444]

I have good, QD mounts on all my ARs (LaRue).
But, I probably wouldn't buy them again.
For me, I don't like the fact that all my mounts are one piece mounts and take up the entire receiver rail. For example: I would like to mount one of those brass catcher bags on my rifle, but I can't because the entire rail is taken up by the optic mount. I spend a lot of time prepping my brass and I hate to have it ejected on concrete or to lose it.

On the plus side, one of the reasons I bought them is that I don't nessessarily have them as BACK UP iron sights. I enjoy shooting with iron sights and I like the ability to quickly and easily (with a return to zero) choose whether today, I want to shoot with an optic or if I feel like shooting with iron sights....just because I shoot for fun and I enjoy playing with both.

 

[Armored farmer]

Here is my go-to AR 15 with offset sights.
I went to some trouble to get this setup arranged to my liking. You may notice my scope mounts appear to be backwards. This is to allow my offset irons to mount where I wanted them, and still have my ideal relief on the Nikon scope.
The scope is zeroed at 100yds. The irons at 25yds.

....all this being said, I have had this rifle for several years. I have hunted, woodsbumming, target shooting, fought raccoons out of my sweet corn patch.......
And never used the offset sights except to sight in or practice.
They could be invaluable in the event that I drop my rifle off a cliff and break my scope.......but it hasn't happened yet.

 

[chicharrones]

Whether absolutely necessary or not, I like iron sights on most scoped rifles whether they are an AR or not.

Like jmr40, I usually have a Leatherman or other tool always with me to remove an optic if I want to.

 

[z7]

if you want backup sights, get them. i have BUIS on one of my rifles set to cowitness with my aimpoint, but other than a zero verification I don't shoot with them, and probably won't but my optic is battery powered and if that fails i don't want to be without a sight, and I wanted them

if I were going on a hunting trip in the middle of nowhere i would take multiple sights/scopes etc. if I were going to the range and then home, or hunting and then home, i might not worry about it. if you plan on heading out into bad guy country and setting up a forward operating base, without your normal logistical support, perhaps buis are more important.

has anyone ever had an experience in the normal civilian world where they were glad they had BUIS?

 

[Havok7416]

I just finished putting a scope and a BUIS on my AR. Both are on QD mounts. This is purely a range gun, although it has an emergency role only for HD. If it ever has to be used in the HD role the scope will stay on and it will be fired by indexing the weapon.

My intent behind the BUIS on a scoped gun is to allow me to stay on the range and keep shooting if something happens to my scope. I understand the possibility is extremely remote, but I only paid $25 for the set, so it's not a huge investment.

 

[Macchina]

I'm really hemming and hawing on this one...
I've decided to go with a set of used Burris P.E.P.R. QD mounts. They are cheap and some people love them and some people hate them. I can get a non QD mount for a lot less, 10% of the cost of the rifle (20% if they were new) for the Burris is more than enough for the scope mount for me, I'd love a LaRue but then we're talking almost 40% the cost of the rifle just for a scope mount and that's getting ridiculous...

 

[cougar1717]

These are the configs that make sense to me:
RDS w/ BUIS - RDS battery failure, BUIS can be used with or without RDS
Scope w/ QD mount and BUIS - something happens to scope, remove in emergency and use BUIS
BUIS only - just want irons or saving for optic or just want to shoot rifle right away
Fixed mount scope or RDS with offset BUIS - Scope/RDS for longer; offset BUIS for close or emergency use

But I don't really get the fixed mount scope with BUIS. Now, without being the ultimate keyboard warrior - I do currently have a rifle with this configuration. I sighted the BUIS with the intention of a lightweight build, but wanted to see how accurate the rifle really was. I left the BUIS on it and put on a fixed mount scope because I'm lazy. There is no way the rear sight can flip up without removing the scope. The front post, if left up, obscures the view while trying to look through the scope. The chances of breaking a reasonable quality scope are nil. It does not take long to unscrew the fixed mount, remove the scope and flip up the BUIS. It's just that - what situation would I have to be in to take advantage of this config with this rifle?
If the scope broke at the range, I'd just pack it up and shoot something else.
A person would not use this config for HD - why would the primary be a scope? Why would a person need to quickly remove the primary scope to use the secondary BUIS for HD? Things happen too fast.
I'm not an operator, nor do I pretend to be. My life does not depend on this rifle.
The rifle is not my only means of survival. It's too small for big game and a BUIS on a free-float tube is not really varmint accurate.
I'm lazy - that's the only reason I have it in that config.

Just my .02 - live dangerously and just get the solid PEPR mount, not the QD. I have both. The solid one is made better.

 

[Chuck R.]

I have MAGPUL MBUIS Pro Offsets on one of my ARs.

In 2 words, "they work".

There is a slight learning curve for rolling the rifle to use them as there's no stop, but once you've practiced a few times it's very easy to use the optic (mines a Leupold VX6 1-6X Multigun) at max magnification for distance TGTs, then roll the rifle and use the BUIS for close in TGTs. The Magpuls fold, are made of steal, and do not need a tool to adjust. They really are un-obtrusive when folded and don't take up a lot of rail space.

Here's a pretty good video:



Chuck

 

[redbullitt]

I generally like backup irons on my AR. Here is why.

First off, they are easy to do! I would do the same on my bolt rifles, each and every one, if it were as simple. I have had scopes go down in the field, even good ones, so to me it is a no brainer. Having to use tools to access the sights is not ideal, but it can save a hunt or save your bacon if you NEED to.

Consider the fact that the offset sights (magpul and deuck defense, my favorite ) allow you to have a back up sight AND a close up sight for your rifle deployed at the same time as your primary optic. This makes it much more practical with a bit of practice, and it allows your one rifle to do distance work and close in work without compromise.

I use a basic fixed 3.5 power acog on my 556 AR carbine with a set of deuck offset irons. I could not be happier with this setup. A precision SPR type AR could benefit even more from the offset sights since you can use a scope with a bit of magnification and still shoot in close quickly and accurately.

Takes a bit of practice to use them, but not too tough. I have and have had quite a few of the folding sights, which have been NEEDED a few times. They worked. No complaints, but the offsets would have been better on every count there... except the price lol.

As to thinking your optic is too good to fail... I have personally killed several leupold mk4s, and a leupold VXL (leupold was awesome and took care of them all), a US optics LR17 (this one is at the doctor right now), and a Nightforce F1, which the company repaired as well.If you shoot enough and use your stuff enough things happen. Simple as that. On a toy or range gun it does not matter to me much, but if it is a rifle I need to count on, then I will take any advantage I can!

 

[FL-NC]

Just carry whatever tool is required to remove the scope. If it requires a wrench, cut it down to the minimum usable length. Store the tool in a magpul pistol grip or hollow forward grip. There are also stocks with storage tubes. Wrap tool in paper towel to keep it from rattling.

 

[BSA1]

I think backup irons are really overrated. It's one thing if you're going into combat, but quite another for civilian applications. I would simply mount the scope however you want and forget about the backups altogether.

And I think the need for scopes are vastly overrated.

A couple of true hunting stories;

Deer hunting with a friend. He had a Marlin 30-30 set up with those see through mounts with the scope on top and the bottom is open so you can use the irons. We come to a patch of tall grass in a pasture and I walk around to block the other end. Friend walks in, raises his rifle and talks a very long minute or more before he shoots a nice buck that was bedded down in the grass. I ask him why he took so long to shoot he said he got excited and exhaled on the back of the scope fogging it up so he could not use it. I asked why he didn't just use his irons he said "**** I forgot I had them." The next day he asked me if I wanted to buy a used scope.

Another buddy and I went hog hunting . He was using a S&W Model 29 with 6" and scope mounted on it. He walked up on a big hog sleeping behind a large log and blew the shot because all he could see in the scope was brown hide of the hog. He wounded it and we spent the next 30 minutes tracking it where he put several more shots in it before finally killing it because it could not clearly see the kill zone.

Same buddy and I go deer hunting. We are sitting on the ground hidden by brush. Buddy is using Marlin lever action rifle with scope mounted on it. Deer steps out less than 15 yards away. Yep, you guessed it. Deer was so close in could not pick out a kill zone. He got lucky and dropped it simply by sighting along the side of the barrel.

Buddy is still a slow learner. He still uses scopes instead of learning to use irons.

I see no disadvantage to having buis on the gun. Other than damage to the wallet for the cost. Irons gives you the flexibility of changing from a scope is conditions warrant it.

 

[Armored farmer]

I agree wholeheartedly, BSA1. 25 years ago I could do fantastic things with a rifle and iron sights.
Time is cruel. Now I can't see the sights good enough.

 

[grampajack]

And I think the need for scopes are vastly overrated.

A couple of true hunting stories;

Deer hunting with a friend. He had a Marlin 30-30 set up with those see through mounts with the scope on top and the bottom is open so you can use the irons. We come to a patch of tall grass in a pasture and I walk around to block the other end. Friend walks in, raises his rifle and talks a very long minute or more before he shoots a nice buck that was bedded down in the grass. I ask him why he took so long to shoot he said he got excited and exhaled on the back of the scope fogging it up so he could not use it. I asked why he didn't just use his irons he said "**** I forgot I had them." The next day he asked me if I wanted to buy a used scope.

Another buddy and I went hog hunting . He was using a S&W Model 29 with 6" and scope mounted on it. He walked up on a big hog sleeping behind a large log and blew the shot because all he could see in the scope was brown hide of the hog. He wounded it and we spent the next 30 minutes tracking it where he put several more shots in it before finally killing it because it could not clearly see the kill zone.

Same buddy and I go deer hunting. We are sitting on the ground hidden by brush. Buddy is using Marlin lever action rifle with scope mounted on it. Deer steps out less than 15 yards away. Yep, you guessed it. Deer was so close in could not pick out a kill zone. He got lucky and dropped it simply by sighting along the side of the barrel.

Buddy is still a slow learner. He still uses scopes instead of learning to use irons.

I see no disadvantage to having buis on the gun. Other than damage to the wallet for the cost. Irons gives you the flexibility of changing from a scope is conditions warrant it.

That's well and fine, but the OP's backups would be useless to him in those situations. Backups aren't meant for rapid transition, for obvious reasons. To be useful in the situations you describe, he would need an offset red dot, which certainly isn't a bad idea. I know lots of predator hunters like to have them in addition to a scope for fast moving targets.

 

[MistWolf]

I'm really hemming and hawing on this one...
I've decided to go with a set of used Burris P.E.P.R. QD mounts. They are cheap and some people love them and some people hate them. I can get a non QD mount for a lot less, 10% of the cost of the rifle (20% if they were new) for the Burris is more than enough for the scope mount for me, I'd love a LaRue but then we're talking almost 40% the cost of the rifle just for a scope mount and that's getting ridiculous...

Let me ask you this- What did you do in the past when your optic crapped out on you?

 

[desidog]

With a 3-9x scope, i wouldn't bother with an 45 offset BUIS; however, if you're coyote hunting... and put a 25x scope on there, then having an iron or red dot set at 45 degrees is awesome. If you're dialed in on something 600-1000 yards out, and you hear a twig break right behind you, you just rotate the gun 45 degrees, and go to the irons.