THR members an 18YO HS senior could use some support

[BluesBear]

In this particular case I'd ask the question, "Where is the criminal intent?"
To be convicted of a crime don't they have to prove Ability, Opportunity and Motive? (and please don't bring up the old "ignorance of the law is no excuse" BS)

I spent 11 years in Law Enforcement. The one thing that really stands out in my mind from my early training was the statement made by the Chief of a sister city agency.
He said over and over again, "One of the most powerful tools that a good Police Office has is the Power of Discretion."

 

[cordex]

To be convicted of a crime don't they have to prove Ability, Opportunity and Motive?

Depends on the crime and the evidence.
In this case - and most possession cases - all that need be proven is that it happened.

"Should" and "Is" ... two very different things.

So it would be OK in your opinion for five year olds to bring loaded handguns to class.

Rock Jock,
Please rephrase your question. Do I think there should be a law banning firearms from all schools to prevent a 5 year old from bringing a gun to school, or do I think it is a good thing for a five year old to have a loaded handgun in class?

See - surprising as it may seem to you - I recognize that not everything I disagree with need be made illegal and regulated by a nanny state.

I don't think a five year old should bring a gallon of ammonia or bleach (or both!) to class, but I don't see a compelling reason to pass a law banning strong cleansers from a school.

 

[squibload]

No intent to commit a crime, but he did anyway and it was due to his own negligence.

I agree on this point. There is a law, whether you agree with it or not.

If I drive 90 mph on a highway (in a place other than Montana), should I be pi$$ed if I get a ticket, even though no one is injured by my action? No, I should expect that the laws are being enforced.

That's why ignorance of a law doesn't acquit you of wrongdoing.

Don't like it? Work to get it changed...don't complain when it's enforced.

 

[OF]

One more thing: if a felony can be committed by accident, with no ill intent whatsoever and with no human being harmed even if the act is completed, then the law itself is thus shown to be both stupid and evil.

As always, well said Pax. I'm getting ill listening to some of the 'law at any price!' garbage on this thread. "He should have known better" "He shouldn't own guns" All I can say is that it's good to know that if I ever have a brain fart and get caught with a gun in the car on school property dropping someone off it's now clear who I can and cannot count on around here to help me out. After all, I should have known better! A couple felony counts, that'll learn me but good!

And 5-year olds with loaded handguns in class? Grow up and join the adults at the conversation for crying out loud. Gee, I guess we never thought about it that way, rock! Our extreme libertarian views on guns could open the door for carnage at nap time! Give me a break.

- Gabe

 

[keano44]

Everybody makes mistakes. Not every gun-related mistake results in a shooting or death. Most times, hopefully, the person learns a valuable lesson, and moves on. Those who think the student should be punished for his offense in this case, must have never made a mistake, YET. When (not if) they do, I hope they will remember what they posted here. Zero tolerance without common sense is stupid. Each case should be tried on its own merits.

 

[Mute]

The only thing there is no excuse for is zero tolerance. It is wrong, evil, lazy and worthless and needs to be done away with forever. This kid needs to be found not guilty, and zero tolerance policies should be challenged as a violation of due process.

Don't even ask me what I think about the principal or the people who reported this kid.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Mute,

Don't tell us -- tell them! What are the phone/email/fax for that school?

 

[OF]

Most times, hopefully, the person learns a valuable lesson, and moves on.

What 'valuable lesson'? OBEY.

- Gabe

 

[Gewehr98]

Jim March, is there a legal defense fund set up yet?

Money order address, PayPal, etc? I'll contribute. And I'll contribute an equal amount in the stead of those who feel the young man should rot in jail, ie. Fix and BountyHunter.

 

[fix]

For the love of God!!! Noone thinks he should rot in jail!!! I hope he walks. I just wont support those who blame the rule rather than the guy who broke it, in this case. Dont start throwing out Nazi "just following orders" references, because this is simply not the case at all. The young man ran afoul of a law that (and it took me a while to start admitting this) has questionable merits. He wasn't framed. He wasn't set up. This wasn't a toy gun. This wasn't a kid making "gun gestures" with his fingers. This wasn't like any of the previous abuses of the "guns are evil, zero tolerance policies." This was a real shotgun, negligently brought on campus, in violation of the rules. This is not a good test case for having the rules changed. This young man has essentially, through his negligence, given more ammunition to the antis through the addition of this incident to their statistics. If you want a good test case for changing the rules, look at the GI Joe incident in Washington State. This is simply not a good example of the law being abused. It is, in fact, a clear cut case of the law being enforced. Hell, I'm pro-gun and I feel that way. Joe Average would look at this thread and see most of you as unreasonable zealots who would advocate CCW for anyone over age 3!!!

 

[Blain]

someone saw him the day before dropping friends off at school with a shotgun in the gun rack of his truck.

Wow.....what a good little informant that little punk is learning how to be......It is good to see how well government schools are paying off towards teaching our youth about important concepts, such as the "Tips" program, and how to be a civilian spy for the government. After all, we all know how important it is to be a government snitch in order to catch "the terrorists".

 

[Daedalus]

What if he was a THR member? This could have been any one of us. It could have been me. Writing him off as "irresponsible" is pretty mean spirited. Where is the victim in this case? Pretty clearly he is victim.
Zero tolerance laws have no place in a sane society. Zero tolerance laws always seem to nab the A students, I recall a few years back a senior in georgia was moving to here new apartment where she would be spending college after finishing highschool and a knife fell out of one of her moving boxes unnotices onto the backseat. She went to school, some snoop saw it and she got suspended.
Zero tolerance is a convenient shield for school officials to hide behind while pressing their political agendas. Zero tolerance means you dont have to think, you can just arbitrarily ruin some 18 year olds life.

 

[Blain]

If those kids at the school had any sense of justice, they would find out who the spy was and beat the hell out of them. The worst that fighting in HS will get you is a detention, or temp suspension anyway (if they are stupid enough to talk), and it would be a good message to send to all those wanna be snitches out there.

 

[Daniel]

I wish I were a peeper of unlimited power; so I could send this message to all "intelligent" life in the universe:

A word or sentence written on a piece of paper does not equal compliance of that said word or sentence by any denizen of any species: noncompliance resulting from an accident or deliberate refusal of the perpetrator is not governed by the word or sentence on the paper.

No piece of paper can stop me from harming you: no matter how bullet resistant it is.

 

[45R]

Gentleman,
With all due respect I put this tread up to help this guy. Instead of spliting hairs with each other lets use this energy to help out a fellow gun owner. The power of THR has been amazing. Look at Blackhawk and Applebee's.

 

[Galloglas]

45R, in that case then we need to be working on the DA, not the school board.

http://www.yoloda.org/

I had to go back and check the city GIS system in order to learn that I was wrong about who owns the land that the parking lot is on. As a long term resident I thought it was city land, but it looks like it was UNPOSTED school district land.

You can see this for yourself at: city maps . Zoom in on the largest blue block you see and turn on the aerial photo layer. The parking lot in question is the one south of the tennis courts. I've always considered those to be city tennis courts I'll have to check on that.

It is my understanding that it was not another student, but a custodian who reported him in the parking lot on the day before the arrest.

 

[dukeofurl]

"Zero Tolerance" = Zero Logic.

Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it. If you know your way around the system, you can crucify as many people as you want without due process and just being barely able to substantiate some type of offense.

 

[QuickDraw]

Zero tolerance?
What about the wife of some high mucky muck carrying a pistol in the airport
right after 9/11?She also"forgot".She was let off AND got her gun back!!
What does this teach our children?

QuickDraw

 

[schromf]

Clearly this kid needs a lawyer, as for expulsion from school, go get a GED and move on, that won't keep him out of college.

The Kid should get a lawyer to plea bargin this down to a non felony case of terminal stupidity on his part, pay his fine and do his community service. The other option is he might get a judge with some common sense, but that is a big risk finding one of those in California.

I wouldn't even be dealing with the school administration on this, it would my lawyer dealing with the DA.

 

[aquapong]

As stated by many already, zero tolerance is ridiculous. The young man did something wrong, I agree, but it could have been turned into a lesson for him with a stern lecture and maybe some suspension or something. The punishment here is far exceeding the crime.

Last but not least...never, ever, ever, EVER consent to a search of ANYTHING even you know you are innocent. If the police had PC to search, they wouldn't be asking you for permission, they would tell you they are going to do it. In this country, we still like to think we are innocent until proven guilty. Why give permission for them to find something to prove you guilty?

 

[Kentucky Rifle]

(Someone may have already posted this.)

This is yet ANOTHER example of why "Zero-Tolerance" policies don't work and are HUGELY UNFAIR. These stories are like a *nazi penalty or something. A blanket--"You're ALL guilty". It seems so dumb not for the "people in charge" not to be able to discern good from bad. It's like they don't have to *actually THINK*. A "rule" does the thinking for them. "Zero-Tolerance" policies should be made illegal.
No doubt about it--This fine kid will have a far less enjoyable life if he has TWO felonies on his record. His job, the way he's looked at and thought of, even
voting will be effected. (Come to think of it, I guess there will be NO voting!)
I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, but this young man's LIFE is ruined -due to the anti-gun forces-! "Victory at any price". Only it's the innocents who pay the price. Man! WHAT a horror story!

I wonder if my old high school could even survive in today's world. Everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY was issued an M1 and it was part of the routine that your M1 was ALWAYS clean, oiled, and ready for action. It became "part" of me. In addition to the M1, those of us on the rifle team were issued match rifles and the same rules applied. I shot *every day* while in high school. What would the schumers, finesteins, boxers, and clintons say about THAT!

I'm sad and angry at the same time.

KR

 

[Gewehr98]

Kentucky Rifle, I wonder if my grade school would survive these days, too.

We used to carry our rimfire target rifles to school on Thursdays. After school, we would all meet in the locker room, throw the canvas back over the big boilerplate bullet trap, and shoot the NRA-sanctioned 50-foot Junior Smallbore prone rifle course of fire. Nobody ever thought about doing a Columbine Massacre, we were too busy trying to keep our scores up for the annual awards ceremony, held in the school cafeteria once a year. Boy, the times have changed...