Three pitbulls - 6 rounds of .357 or .15 of 9mm?

[roscoe]

OK, some of you may have read the CNN article about the three pitbulls that killed the woman on her front lawn. I don't want this to turn into a dog discussion - rather, the question is whether it would be better to have a higher capacity frearm or one with higher power.

There is a pair of big pitbulls that gets loose periodically in my neighborhood and, although they have shown no agression so far, I typically have a firearm when taking my young children out for a walk, or a run in the jogstroller.

I used to carry a J-frame, primarily as an anti-personell precaution. However, with the big dogs out, I figure I need more firepower. The question is whether six rounds of .357 is enough, assuming you might miss, or hit one only before they are on you. I really have very little fear of any single dog, but with two or more, suddenly the ability to make rapid, controlled shots at low, fast targets becomes paramount.

On the other hand, a machete might be the best weapon.

 

[DarkKnight01]

Id go with the 9mm.... not that theres anything wrong with a .357, its just dogs are quick.. and of course shot placement scores you extra points

Id also carry some good pepper spray if you arent already, and perhaps a good fixed blade knife, or even a folder that can be quickly deployed... if it comes to a physical battle with them.. a knife in the lungs or through the neck will be hopefully enough to get the dog(s) to change their mind..

 

[JohnKSa]

If three big dogs that are used to working together attack you--really attack, not just threaten--you're dead meat. I don't think anything you could carry would get you out of it in one piece unless you got very lucky or were very, very skilled.

On the other hand, if they're just messing around, they might run after the first shot.

IMO, this isn't a scenario I'd prepare for (in terms of picking a carry gun with this in mind) because it's entering the realm of spitting into the wind. If I am unlucky enough to be put into this situation, I'd shoot whatever I had until it was empty and then get my back up against something and see how long I could last with my Cold Steel folder.

If you really want to carry something useful for this situation, pick a big .357 revolver. You can hit them with it after it's empty.

 

[Alex45ACP]

I'd say 9 rounds of 12 gauge for that situation

But if that ever happened in real life, you better be running for the nearest tree.

 

[epijunkie67]

If the concern is for a multi attacker senario then I'd go for the 9mm. +p HP, maybe something from Cor-Bon. Like you said, you may miss several times given the speed these animals can attack at and you may need more than one round each to get a full stop. The only way to practice for a low fast moving target I'm aware of when shotgunners have clays thrown along the ground to simulate a fast moving rabbit. I've never tried to hit anything like that with a pistol before but if you did, and got good at it, you'd be ready to kick some dog butt.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

have you thought about picking a lightsaber as a CCW?

 

[kannonfyre]

A friend of mine who works as a cook was once going home after a workday when he encountered a large and aggressive stray dog in an alleyway that he was using for a shortcut. He tried to back out of the alley in a slow and careful manner but the dog attacked anyway. The mutt jumped up and sank it's teeth into my friend's left forearm just as he was raising it to protect himself.The impact knocked him backwards.

My friend brings his own cooking knives to and from work everyday so even though he was hurting and bleeding, he reached into his bag (which had fallen on the floor along with him), pulled out a carving knife and stabbed the dog through the ribs from right to left. 1 more successive stab and the canine relased it's grip.

I can only assume that the feral dog died (2 DEEP stab woulds to COM).

Till this day, my friend still shows off the stitches and scars from the attack. I don't eat at the restaurant where he works though....not sure if he stills uses THAT knife to cook.

 

[pete f]

pits are not big dogs but the are not given to going lightly to the next world. I would think an Auto might give you a better chance of popping them when the poop hits the rotating ventilations device. My Father in law once had to put 3 158 gr 357's into a single pissed off and diseased German Shepard on the farm. I would prefer something crew served if there were three sick GS's or rotts.

 

[Browns Fan]

Hi cap 9mm, hands down, for me. FMJ for max penetration. Always carry at least 1 spare mag.

You really need to report the owner to the police before someone gets hurt!

 

[DigMe]

Definitely the larger capacity 9mm.

The reason is that I think both of these guns would adequately penetrate on a dog, given that I'll take the higher cap.

brad cook

 

[Coltdriver]

I have told this story before but it is especially germane to your question.

I was in a national forest to go hunting. Had a small back pack, a rifle on a sling and a 9mm revolver (5 shot) in a holster.

Along come 6 pitbulls. I had my small dog on a leash. We were surrounded by these 6 pitbulls, they were circling around my feet, me, my dog etc.

I pulled the 9mm revolver with the thought that if every shot did not kill at least one dog that I was going to be in trouble. Fat chance of that kind of shooting.

Along comes the owner, sees what is happening, calls off his dogs and all of them obediantly split.

Now while hunting I carry a 9mm Hi Power with a 17 round mag and one in the chamber. I carry nyclads for what that is worth. And a spare mag in my pocket.

 

[sturmruger]

I would definetly go for the higher capacity. Training for low to the ground fast moving targets is can be a real pain. I would want as many rounds as possible.

 

[waterhouse]

If you really want to carry something useful for this situation, pick a big .357 revolver. You can hit them with it after it's empty.

I keep thinking of that scene in Snatch. "weight is a sign of reliability, I always go for reliability... and if it doesn't work you can always hit him with it."

anyway I'd go with the higher cap 9mm. and I'd pray I never meet 3 angry dogs.

 

[Imaginos]

Common Problem

This thread is near and dear to my heart after 3 separate occasions where dogs have come after me and my 3yo when we are walking in our neighborhood.

I found the following news story on FoxNews.com

<Begin Article>
"FoxNews.com 6/3/2004
Dog Owner to Rottweiler: Bite the Mailman!

Maybe a man who wound up behind bars for telling his pet Rottweiler (search) to bite the postman had gotten an unwanted letter that day.

No matter what his motive, Armindo Gomes, 67, was arrested in Bridgeport, Conn., Tuesday and charged with assault and other offenses for commanding his dog to attack a U.S. Postal Service carrier, the Associated Press reported.

An off-duty city cop heard Gomes egging his dog on as the postman was delivering mail just after 2:30 p.m.

"She heard (Gomes) going, 'Sic him, sic him, sic him,'" said Bridgeport police Sgt. Raymond Masek of the officer.

Gomes was charged with second-degree assault, breach of peace and second-degree reckless endangerment.

The mailman, whose name hasn't been released, tried to flee but the Rottweiler scaled a fence and sank its teeth into his leg, according to the Connecticut Post. When the carrier screamed for help, the off-duty policewoman ordered Gomes to call off the dog.

Masek said the officer shot the dog with her service weapon. The dog ran, but was caught nearby. The animal was being treated at a veterinary hospital for a wound to its hindquarters.

Masek said it wasn't clear why Gomes allegedly ordered the dog to go after the carrier.

Police are investigating whether the off-duty officer violated any policies. "
<End Article>

I emailed the Bridgeport PD and asked what their issue load was. The answer was, "Winchester 9mm subsonic Ranger (Law Enforcement Only) ammunition".

Now the important things in this article was:
1) The dog ran off (good thing because he stopped chewing the mailman)
2) The dog ran off (bad thing because the dog was still functional)

I would go with the highest concentration of OC pepper spray I could find in a fogger unit, and back it up with a 357 and some good 125 JHPs.

 

[wmenorr67]

What policies could the off-duty officer violate?

 

[DigMe]

Now the important things in this article was:
1) The dog ran off (good thing because he stopped chewing the mailman)
2) The dog ran off (bad thing because the dog was still functional)

I would go with the highest concentration of OC pepper spray I could find in a fogger unit, and back it up with a 357 and some good 125 JHPs.

If you read the article I think it's obvious that the dog lived because he was shot in the hindquarters, not because the officer was using a 9mm. Unless you believe in the myth of "energy dump" then I really don't believe it matters which one you use here as far as amount of damage to the dog per shot...especially when loaded with 147gr subsonics, which have plenty of penetration. With good ammo a 9mm round should have no problem penetrating to vitals and causing blood loss, which is what leads to death. Or if you were able to get the unlikely well-aimed brain shot off it would certainly have no problem penetrating a dog's skull. I've heard accounts of officers shooting multiple rounds of .45 into the torso of a pit bull as the dog continues to charge. Just like people, sometimes a dog is so damn tough and determined that they can keep coming through multiple shots of whatever you shoot at them.

brad cook

 

[Nitram68]

I love and own both. I would probably take the 9mm if it were loaded with +P or +P+. If not, then I'd probably take the .357.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

about 10 years ago i was on a narcotics raid as a sheriff's deputy and two other deputies opened fire on a pit bull. i approached the house on the driver side of a vehicle parked in the driveway, they approached on the passenger side. a pit bull ran out of the house in question and charged them (i didn't see it). one fired three rounds of 9mm, the other deputy fired three rounds of 9mm. the dog turned around, ran back into the house, and died in the bathroom.

the round used was a Winchester 9mm 147 gr. subsonic HP. don't ask me why the dept was issuing subsonic in duty sidearms (S&W 5906's).

didn't appear to be a very effective round.

 

[DigMe]

The Winchester Ranger 147 gr subsonic is among the top 9mm rounds out there.

I don't know that you were using the Ranger and it's superior to the other Winchester 9mm offerings.

brad cook

 

[IlikeSA]

All I can say about single dogs making problems is "taser"...

 

[Missourigunner]

Three Pitbulls- 6 rounds of .357 or 15 of 9mm?

Remington 870, with 00 Buckshot and you might have a chance. Other than that, I don't think you are going to stop 3 Pitbulls attacking you.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

they were not Rangers.......regular JHP 147 gr. in a silver "SUBSONIC" box. nothing remotely close to an SXT bullet.

 

[RandyB]

I think either would work fine. Personally I tend to carry my .357 more since I shoot it more accurately than my 9mm, but with proper ammo both would work.
The 9mm has a few advantages:
1. more shots
2. easier/faster to reload

the .357:
1. Six for sure
2. will more likely shoot and not jam if a contact shot was made

Both are powerful enough to put a bullet into the vitals on a dog. I'd opt for some OC pepper spray and a good knife too! Of course when I hike I have a custom made laminated hiking staff that would be good medicine for a dog that wants to treat me like a milkbone.

 

[ronbwolf]

Why not go with 15 .40 S&W. We had a shooting recently, large Rott vs. 165 gr. Win. SXT, one shot, one stop. BTW the shooter is very good, and that helped.

Both the .357, and 9mm shoot the same size bullet, the only difference is capacity, more is better, "You can't be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammunition." IMHO

 

[Hardware]

I own pit bulldogs and run a pit bull forum for pet owners (not dogfighters). Pits are not big dogs, 65 pounds max and knee high to a man. Anybody tells you different they are showing you a mix breed or selling you a load of shinola. I could go into dog psychology and socialization but suffice it to say you have a situation where three medium sized dogs are coming for you. IF you are cool enough to connect with a contact shot then any caliber will do the job. Do NOT carry FMJs. FMJ was specified in the Geneva convention agreements for military use because it carves neat little channels through a body without fragmentation. You want as big a hole in the critter you can get without being concerned with over penetration.

I'd go for the 9 with JHPs. A good knife would be a good bet. Less offensive options such as pepper spray or cattle prods will look good to the authorities. Here's a free tip; if the dog has a bite on something or someone you want them to quit from, kick them as hard as you can at the base of the jaw. Another free tip, identify the leader of the pack and dispatch them first. Dogs will generally wait until the lead attacks, it's a socialization thing. Once the leader is down the other dogs may retreat. Hitting a game pit bulldog with a stick is like trying to teach pigs to fly. You just waste your time and annoy the pig. There's a special tool called a parting stick that is used by old time dog men to break up dogs in a fight. Trouble is it takes a man with a parting stick for each dog. The stick has to be inserted in between the teeth of the dog and twisted, forcing the jaws apart. Not something you want to learn on the fly.

One last word; one of his books Massad Ayoob advocates grabbing an attacking dog by the flews, the long hanging upper lips some dogs have. I wouldn't advise this. A miss will basically give the dog your throat.