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Tight cases in rifle?

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Axis II

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Once again guys I apologize for blowing up the forum but I ran into something tonight and need some help.

I setup my RCBS 223rem dies to just set the shoulder back a few thousands on my rifle which has a tight chamber. I have another rifle with a loose chamber and looks like I got some of its brass mixed up. I sized the cases with the die setup for the tight chamber and when loading a couple empty cases in the rifle to make sure they fit right its very hard to close the bolt. I know this means the headspace is tight but could too tight cause pressure issues? it seems these LC 08 cases don't like to be sized cause I ran them through the sizer again and still a lot of resistance closing the bolt. My lake city 07 I usually run in the gun chambers fine without resistance.
 
Are you shooting the cases out of a gas gun and then setting up your dies with a comparator? If so, you are sizing your cases to fictitious dimensions. Gas guns stretch cases on extraction and comparators are relative gages.

Or, are you using a Wilson type gage and cases out of a bolt gun?

If the latter, than yes, LC cases are stiffer and react differently. This is why I size with a Wilson type gage on the table top, because each lot of brass requires small die adjustments to size to the same cartridge case headspace.

Now you may be having problems with the length of your sizing die. If you have the sizing die fully down to the shellholder, or to the shell holder plus a quarter turn, and your cases are still too long for the gage, then you have a couple of alternatives. You can play around with shell holders, trying to find one that is shorter. Good luck with that. Or you can remove material from the bottom of the die until the cartridge case is short enough to chamber.
 
Ohihunter .... sounds like a problem I had ...............was using a short base die , switched to a FL die sizer die .......I now have a tool head which decaps with the SB die and the RT trimmer has a FL die so it cycles through both .....If I had to use only one it would be the Fl die it solved all my sizing problems...........GOOD LUCK
 
No comparator and no gas gun. Cases fired from a bolt gun. I didn't know some cases do that. I really didn't want to mess with the die cause I got it where I want it. I'll turn it down a bit and see what happens. I was hoping i wouldn't have to pitch the brass either.
 
You won't have pressure problems, you might be wearing out or damaging your action by regularly closing it on cases tat fit too tightly. Think about it. The bolt is supposed to simply close on the case and hold it when it fires. While the firing forces are huge compared to the closing forces you are experiencing, the bolt was not designed to be used as a sizing die. In the event you want to open the bolt without firing that tight case, you may also find out you might need to pound on the bolt handle to open it. That's not good either. I've had to do that myself.

I size the cases just a few mils more than required for an interference fit. You can do this too without a comparator. Just some trial and error with a magic marker. Size down, mark the shoulder, close the bolt. If you have no marks on the shoulder, you've sized enough. Mark that setting on your die.
 
You could anneal the LC brass to make it softer and easier to size.

When did this the first time I pushed the shoulder back too far. Had to readjust the sizing die. Now I anneal every cycle so nothing changes.

What are you using for Lube? It can play a big part in the force required.
 
Blue68f100 said:
You could anneal the LC brass to make it softer and easier to size.

When did this the first time I pushed the shoulder back too far. Had to readjust the sizing die. Now I anneal every cycle so nothing changes.

What are you using for Lube? It can play a big part in the force required.
Click to expand...
imperial wax. I usually don't shoot the other rifle that much and only ran about 10rds of reloads through it as it shot the same load as the other rifle i use most. some of the brass fits fine and they measure 1.750 and the other brass that's hard to chamber i had to do a lot of trimming so im thinking they were never run through the other rifle and might be cases i haven't fired yet. these LC came form Military bases so could be machine gun ammo but still wouldn't the cases size to spec of the die?
 
Sunray said:
"...means the headspace is tight..." Headspace has nothing to do with resizing the case.
Using the same brass in two rifles is fine as long as you FL resize. You may be running into thicker milsurp brass though. And check the case lengths.
"...a short base die..." Is an FL die. It just sizes a bit more than a regular FL die.
Click to expand...
all FL sized to just move shoulder back .1-2k. the cases headspace off the shoulder which if its tight wouldn't it mean tight headspace? Length are trimmed. 1.750.
 
No comparator.... [and] I really didn't want to mess with the die cause I got it where I want it.
Click to expand...
You are flying blind, and have set a course w/o a map. ;)

When sizing, the effective shoulder setback is affected by:

- The press spring, ... which is a function of...
- The amount & effectiveness of the lube... and
- The brass stiffness... which is a constant,y-varying function of...
- The metal's workhardening from previous firing/sizing sessions.

Get and use a comparator/digital caliper. (I recommend Hornady's comparator set)
By trial & error establish the real case headspace (yes, case headspace) dimension that will allow the bolt to close easily. (Write it down)
Use that dimension to establish each session's die setting -- which may evolve/be different as time goes on.
 
MEHavey said:
You are flying blind, and have set a course w/o a map. ;)

When sizing, the effective shoulder setback is affected by:

- The press spring, ... which is a function of...
- The amount & effectiveness of the lube... and
- The brass stiffness... which is a constant,y-varying function of...
- The metal's workhardening from previous firing/sizing sessions.

Get and use a comparator/digital caliper. (I recommend Hornady's comparator set)
By trial & error establish the real case headspace (yes, case headspace) dimension that will allow the bolt to close easily. (Write it down)
Use that dimension to establish each session's die setting -- which may evolve/be different as time goes on.
Click to expand...
IDK what the heck I was talking about last night. I have a comparator but its homemade with a bushing and seems to work good. I didn't know the brass could be different. I loaded a few hundred of the same once fired LC 07 brass and all are fine with 2thou setback these other cases wont move.
 
I do not be live you are flying blind. You are here after all.
MEhavey and others are correct. Case hardness will affect sizing.
As a creature of consistancey I prefer to do things exactly (the best I can) the same each time. So I am able to fine tune it. In this plan I try to move the brass rather than constantly adjusting the dies. I make seating adjustments more than enough. In order for this to happen I must anneal every cycle.
But without it, yes you must measure each case.
 
In addition to headspace there is also body size. If a case base been fired in an extremely loose chamber or extracted while under pressure , such as in a machine gun, the area above the head may be enlarged. The head may not increase in width and the pocket may still be tight. If the brass is especially hard it may spring back here and still measure head space correctly. A case which is too long won't chamber nor will a case that is to wide.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
No comparator and no gas gun. Cases fired from a bolt gun. I didn't know some cases do that. I really didn't want to mess with the die cause I got it where I want it.
Click to expand...
No comparator? How do you know if you sized the whole body and moved the shoulder the amount you wanted? So how do you know you have the die where you want it.
ohihunter2014 said:
on my rifle which has a tight chamber. I have another rifle with a loose chamber
Click to expand...
Loose how? Tight how?

Purchase something so you can measure where your shoulder is before and after sizing.

It can be simple and cheap, or complicated and expensive.
 
Walkalong said:
No comparator? How do you know if you sized the whole body and moved the shoulder the amount you wanted? So how do you know you have the die where you want it.

Loose how? Tight how?

Purchase something so you can measure where your shoulder is before and after sizing.

It can be simple and cheap, or complicated and expensive.
Click to expand...
I am using the bushing method you and another member recommended in another thread awhile back. It works well and for some reason I forgot that's what that was called until I looked it up. these pieces of brass aren't moving at all when sized according to the homemade comparator. as far as the whole body being measured I have a lyman case checker and all plunk fine. When I set the die up I took fireformed brass and adjusted the die for 2thousandths setback.

How loose/tight-The heavy barrel was sent to savage for the bolt face being messed up and I was able to talk to the smith and mentioned how some factory ammo will hit the lands and get stuck and he recommended leaving it alone if I'm reloading cause the chamber and throat is very tight and its a good accurate rifle. Hornady manual says v max is seated at 2.250. I have to be 2.230 in the tight chamber for no rifling marks. the other rifle I could be at 2.250+ and no lands marks. If I take these cases that don't fit in the heavy barrel/tight chamber they will fit fine in the loose chamber rifle no problem. I know some will say just use them in the other rifle they fit in but that rifle is being sold so everything needs to fit the heavy barrel 223.
 
You should not be seeing any land marks yet as you are still sizing brass. If the brass fits but the assembled rounds do not, one would think that is a seating depth issue. I was under the impression the brass was empty yet. I must mull this some.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
all FL sized to just move shoulder back .1-2k. the cases headspace off the shoulder which if its tight wouldn't it mean tight headspace? Length are trimmed. 1.750.
Click to expand...
I think this means the die is a poor fit for your chamber. I am envisioning, by this description, the shoulder, too wide, stopping just before it touches the angle from shoulder to neck. This could cause hard chambering, while still measuring 'correctly' with a comparator. Maybe.
 
Hello,
I"m experiencing the exact same issue with a Remington 660 .308. On once fired brass the bolt closes hard, even on brass that was fired once in the rifle. It seems to me that if the factory load chambered smoothly then how could issues arise in brass fired once in the same chamber?
Further I Checked the measurements from all angles and can find no reasonable explanation. The factory cases measure 2.005.5", almost exactly the trim length stated in my books. Some of the used brass I obtained measures 2.023" and ill not chamber at all. Trim the cases down to 2.005 and closing the bolt is possible, the bolt still turns hard. So I trimmed one down to 1.998. Same issue, shortening results in diminishing returns.

I'm using a lee full length sizing die and I've tried sizing the brass tested three times with no appreciable change in difficulty.
Then I coated a shell in marker and inserted it. locked and unlocked the bolt several times and the case shoulder shows signs of striking the bore by the scratches in the ink. Now that could also be the brass turning as the bolt locks and unlocks causing scuff marks.
Okay, but the brass was fire formed when fired in that chamber and the only variable is the die.

I size full length. I shoot cast bullets and usually in the 1600-2000 fps range with a CUP pressure usually under 20,000.
I"m not stressing the brass so simply put there must be a disagreement between the Lee die and the chamber on this 660. I believe I'll look for a new full length sizing die and if that fails I"ll cast the chamber and see what I'm dealing with.
 
Again, it's the case headspace dimension that causes (most all) bolt-closing problems, not the case length.

Moreover, bolt-closure problems when the shooter thinks he's* "full-length resizing" (since he screwed the die down to touch the shellholder) almost invariabley arise from the press actually warping/springing open ever-so-slightly from the force used to resize the case.
( :thumbdown: :cuss: )

As a test, I recommend the shooter turn the die ~¼ turn past shellholder contact (so the press actually "cams over" on full stroke). That all-but-ensures full sizing to SAAMI-like minumums.

Try it. (and make sure you've used good Lube) ;)





* There I go again. Sexist.
But I welcome any LadyReloader correcting me.
('Proves we have a future)
:D
 
Last edited:
As we all have mentioned you need to readjust your sizing die. If your reluctant to do that there is one trick you can do for a quick test. That is place a shim between the base of the brass and shell holder, (rim slot). If you use paper remember it will compress but will give you an idea. Use a business card, cut to fit then lube and resize, check. If it fits you know how to correct the problem.

I have a Min Spec Match chamber in one of my AR's. I have found on multiple occasions that book value on OAL will not work, too long. I always check the OAL when testing a new bullet that I have not worked up a load on. Once I find my max OAL, I reduce it by 0.020" and use that as my starting OAL.

I have bought 1000's of once fired LC brass from military ranges. Yes you do run into some that are difficult to resize. But my Redding Type S body die has always returned the brass to with in spec. This is one reason I anneal my brass every cycle. I read some where that the brass mfg were only doing enough annealing to make the brass last 1 firing. I have found this true on several occasions where the brass split on the first reload. Now I anneal every piece no matter what the number of firing are. This does make it easier to resize, and more consistent shoulder set back. Without annealing it's not uncommon to tweak the sizing die every time as the brass work hardens. Unless your pushing the shoulder back way more than necessary.
 
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