headspace?
- Thread starter Axis II
- Start date
- Status
Reloadron
Contributing Member
You have to love Amazon, my wife loves Amazon and we have piles of empty Amazon boxes to prove it.
Ron
Ron
SAAMI spec for chamber diameter at the pressure ring point (.200" forward from the bolt face) is .3765" +.002". So maximum is .3785".
Something's amiss if a standard full length die sizing your fired cases doesn't fit the chamber easily.
entropy
Member
That's what I load for mostly; my Axis. With small base dies. I did not get the manual with mine as it was used. I too am curious why the manual would say that.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
This is what Savage has to say under Ammunition:
Ron
Just about all manufacturers have that in their manuals. The above quote is taken from this manual which covers Savage Centefire Rifles. While there is no specific reference to small base dies they hit reloads and handloads pretty clear. Again, I have seen this for just about all commercial manufacturers and it is nothing new.
Ron
higgite
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 2,080
I'm surprised that Savage would say that. I don't have an Axis, but I have 2 different models of Savage center fire rifles and both manuals say using reloads will void the warranty. If I recall correctly, all of my firearm manuals say that. Can you point me to the section of the manual that specifically warns against using small base dies? Thanks.
Savage warns against any reloaded ammo which sometimes means small base dies (probably) because they're prone to incipient case head separation by over working brass at the case pressure ring. Such dies reduce fired case diameters more at that place. If the die body is at minimum spec at that place and that of the rifle is at maximum spec, a dangerous amount of work hardening of case brass happens. Worse with brittle brass.
That is not any fault of Savage; they have no control over such goings on.
That is not any fault of Savage; they have no control over such goings on.
Blue68f100
Member
Once I'm sure my dies are set correctly for the batch of brass I'm sizing, I go. Then spot check a few along the way. If your using mixed brass you will need to check them all, as some will be different. I anneal all my brass prior to sizing. This helps keep them all size the same, still separate by lots.
if im using LC 04-07-11 all from the same shipper would i be okay?
Check a number of cases until you are happy all are bumped enough and none are too much. There will be usually be a .001 to .002 variance. With mixed brass it can be worse. A dead soft annealed case shoulder will size/move easier and not spring back as much, vs a work hardened case that resists sizing and springs back a lot.
would you suggest getting into annealing? right now they are about 2 times fired.
I wouldnt to be honest, not with LC brass. If I was shooting Lapua brass, or something along those lines, then yes, so I can extend the life of my brass.
But then again, the point of annealing is not so much extending the life, as it is a side effect, but to create a very consistent neck tension value.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I get setup, run the first several (four or five) and check them. Once things are uniform and repeating what I want I will run a hundred or more. Then I trim all of them before charging, hand prime and seat my bullets.
Ron
okay guys another question. I took a once fired case that was fired in my heavy barrel/tighter than the regular barrel savage and using a 5/16th steel bushing like Bart suggested and zeroing the calipers to the bushing I put the once fired case in there and it measure 1.458 and I measured another once fired case and got 1.458 and 1.457-5. Now I measured a sized case and it was 1.458. with the fire formed case being 1.458 should I just leave the die alone? something tells me somethings fishy here cause I can see that sized case being the same as the fire formed case.
Blue68f100
Member
From those reading you have not moved it back any. Go a little more till you see a change of 0.001"-0.002" for a bolt gun. 0.002"-0.003" for a simi-auto.
LC brass will normally give you 2-3 sizing before they start splitting. Just depends on how long you want the brass to last. Annealing every cycle is about getting the same neck tension every time. Added brass life is just a bonus of doing it.
LC brass will normally give you 2-3 sizing before they start splitting. Just depends on how long you want the brass to last. Annealing every cycle is about getting the same neck tension every time. Added brass life is just a bonus of doing it.
I forgot to add that I'm pretty sure this brass was sized when I would adjust the die little by little to fit the heavy barrel as I grabbed from a case that's already primed and sized so I'm guessing this was a lot from when the die was setup correctly but what would be the odds of the sized being the same as fire formed? I guess run a piece of 2 of brass through the die to see if it moves?
If the sizer isn't down quite far enough the shoulder can actually be moved forward as the die body squeezes the case body in. The shoulder isn't affected until the shoulder on the die body hits the shoulder on the case.
You don't need to anneal cases. I get 8 to 12+ firings with mixed .223 brass, including LC brass, before primer pockets get too loose. Neck splits happen, but not that often IMHO.
If you set up the die with soft new or once fired cases and are barely moving the shoulder, the cases can get work hardened and resist sizing enough after enough sizings and get hard to chamber. Annealing would stop that, and keep neck tension more consistent, but unless you are shooting tiny little groups with a great barrel and bullets, it's a waste of to me IMHO. Just adjust the sizer to move the shoulder .003 and you'll probably go the life of the cases without trouble chambering. If you want to do .001, you may have to anneal or adjust the sizer down a hair as the cases work harden. Then of course when you trash them and get more soft cases, you'll need to readjust the die again. (Mark the die)
I hope this makes sense.
You don't need to anneal cases. I get 8 to 12+ firings with mixed .223 brass, including LC brass, before primer pockets get too loose. Neck splits happen, but not that often IMHO.
If you set up the die with soft new or once fired cases and are barely moving the shoulder, the cases can get work hardened and resist sizing enough after enough sizings and get hard to chamber. Annealing would stop that, and keep neck tension more consistent, but unless you are shooting tiny little groups with a great barrel and bullets, it's a waste of to me IMHO. Just adjust the sizer to move the shoulder .003 and you'll probably go the life of the cases without trouble chambering. If you want to do .001, you may have to anneal or adjust the sizer down a hair as the cases work harden. Then of course when you trash them and get more soft cases, you'll need to readjust the die again. (Mark the die)
I hope this makes sense.
thanks to those who responded. I will turn the die down some more. I just figured with being at factory setting turning it down more might be bad. I guess ill just have to play with it. using the homemade bushing seems to be doing well other than it wont stay attached to the calipers and pissed me off in about 20 seconds from dropping it all over the place. hahaha. I checked 4 fired cases and all measured the same. I just want to make sure I'm doing this right cause I don't want to screw anything up.
JimKirk
Member
Lay your bushing on a table top or flat surface....
I don't think annealing is all it's heated up to be.
A friend full length resized then reloaded the same case 65 times with the same maximum load. Used his Win 70 based 308 Win match rifle clamped in his machine rest to put 65 Sierra 168's into .4 inch extreme spread at 100'ysrds. Never annealed that case.
I did the same thing with a Federal case 46 times as a friend shot them from a bench. His group was about 3/4 inch at his underground 100 yand range. No annealing at all. His chronograph said 28 fps spread about the average and didn't change from the first 10 to last 10 fired.
A friend full length resized then reloaded the same case 65 times with the same maximum load. Used his Win 70 based 308 Win match rifle clamped in his machine rest to put 65 Sierra 168's into .4 inch extreme spread at 100'ysrds. Never annealed that case.
I did the same thing with a Federal case 46 times as a friend shot them from a bench. His group was about 3/4 inch at his underground 100 yand range. No annealing at all. His chronograph said 28 fps spread about the average and didn't change from the first 10 to last 10 fired.
guys please forgive me as I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this but I've got a slight LD/AD and want to check this with you guys before moving forward.
I set the RCBS FL size die up touching the shell holder and then 1/8 turn in. Now I took my once fired case that was fired in the sloppy chamber and I put it in my homemade comparator like Bart and Walkalong use (5-16th steel bushing) and zeroed the case in the comparator on the calipers. I then sized that same case and it came out .2 on the calipers and once hit .3 but that could have been me moving it. Is this method correct?
Also I put a once fired from the heavy barrel into the comparator and once fired from the sloppy rifle into the comparator and both measured the same (1.458). how is this possible for 2 different rifles to measure the same?
when I had the die setup for this once fired brass for the first sizing I just sized a little by little until it chambered fine and I'm 99% sure that I wasn't 1/8 turn past the shell holder I might have just been touching it or a smidge off of it. I'm just trying to make sure everything is right so I don't load up a bunch of ammo that's not right.
I set the RCBS FL size die up touching the shell holder and then 1/8 turn in. Now I took my once fired case that was fired in the sloppy chamber and I put it in my homemade comparator like Bart and Walkalong use (5-16th steel bushing) and zeroed the case in the comparator on the calipers. I then sized that same case and it came out .2 on the calipers and once hit .3 but that could have been me moving it. Is this method correct?
Also I put a once fired from the heavy barrel into the comparator and once fired from the sloppy rifle into the comparator and both measured the same (1.458). how is this possible for 2 different rifles to measure the same?
when I had the die setup for this once fired brass for the first sizing I just sized a little by little until it chambered fine and I'm 99% sure that I wasn't 1/8 turn past the shell holder I might have just been touching it or a smidge off of it. I'm just trying to make sure everything is right so I don't load up a bunch of ammo that's not right.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
That really is not that unusual. Depends on how we define a sloppy chamber. Side to side sloppy is a matter of width which we are not looking at, a long leade or throat is something else we are not looking at. Now as to actual chamber headspace? Using a .223 Remington as an example, a chamber Go is 1.464" (1.4636 Minimum) and a NoGo is 1.467". The difference between the two SAAMI dimensions is only 0.003" so having a few chambers come up the same really is not that unusual. Unless these chambers are actually gauged you really don't know absolutely what you have.
Yes, it would appear you are doing things correctly. You take a fired case and measure it. You will get what we can call a reference number. As long as we read three places to the right of the decimal it matters not what the number is as it becomes a reference. Next you resize the case and you are only looking to bump that case back a few thousandths from that reference number. Where exactly the die ends up is a matter of the die and shell holder. Generally I know the die I use most I run down to the shell holder I use and that is all I need. Just snug on the shell holder and I get cases that are right on SAAMI minimum. Your mileage (setup) may vary.
It is also not unusual sometimes to see a case finish resizing longer than when it began the process and hat was already covered. Overall it sounds like you are doing things correctly.
Ron
rfwobbly
Member
- Status
