headspace?

[Axis II]

I have a question for you gurus. I had my rcbs FL sizing die setup to size once fire LC brass just enough for them to chamber without a bullet in my savage axis 2 heavy barrel and sized about 300 cases on this setting. I have another axis I 223rem regular barrel and all the cases chambered fine except a couple were very tight. why is this? all were ran through the FL die and fit in a case checker. it also appears this regular barrel has a super long throat because in the heavy barrel a 55gr v max bullet must be seated to 2.25ish and the book says 2.250. anything longer than 2.25 I get rifling marks and its hard to chamber. I made a dummy round today with the v max for the regular barrel and at 2.250 it chambered fine, I could probably go longer too but not.

Now for the headspace question. I lost the setting on the die and set it back up per the instructions. firing these through the regular barrel and being able to seat bullet super long will this help me get tighter brass to be able to set the die back up for the heavy barrel or does the throat have nothing to do with the headspacing? basically with me being able to seat the bullet long meaning longer throat will it let the brass grow more than the heavy barrel so the brass from the regular barrel can be fitted to the other.

I know I can just go try it but don't want to mess up the brass if that's even possible.

 

[Walkalong]

Have you read through this thread?

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/incipient-case-head-separation.734058/

It might answer a couple of things or at least make it easier to ask the question(s) you need answered.

Do you have a case gauge? It would be helpful here. You can use it to check headspace (Assuming it is mechanically OK in your guns), and also use it to set up the sizer for both guns. Get some measurements with it and you can easily go back to what you need for each gun.

Here is a cheap way to get some measurements on fired vs sized cases.

http://www.ctstrimmer.com/case-gauges/21-case-gauge.html

I made my own for a couple different calibers.

 

[firewrench044]

Where the bullet is seated has nothing to do with the case head space
I use an RCBS PRECISION MIC set to measure the case and adjust the sizing die to the correct place
( 1 to 2 thou. for a bolt gun, 2 to 3 thou for an automatic, smaller than the chamber )
I understand other companies also make these tools

You ask why a couple of cases after being sized the same as the others were very tight
Probably these cases were thicker, harder or longer to start with
so they did not size the same as the others

You ask about some bullets having marks from the rifling on them
Aperantly they were too long
The place on the bullet that contacts the barrel varies in different brands and types of bullets
Again the Precision Mic will measure that spot, letting you seat the bullet to the correct length
( 308 and 223- the V-Max and A-Max in my guns work best a 10 to 15 thou off the rifling )

 

[Axis II]

I don't have any of those tools. when I first got the LC brass it was once fired Military and someone on here said just size it a little and chamber and if it doesn't screw the die in more until it finally fits the chamber. If I remember correctly the die was just a hair from actually touching the shell holder and all 500pc of brass was sized this way. when I chamber a round in the regular barrel I feel zero resistance but the heavy barrel it would feel a bit tight when chambering a round so I'm guessing the regular barrel might be off.

now dumb question. if I buy one of these checkers and measure the case and it shows. 2.202 like in Walkalongs post how will I know what to set the die up for? just screw it down little by little until the new piece of brass gets that measurement? I was just going to order a 100pc of the LC again and reset the die but your guys way seems a lot better.

 

[Walkalong]

Measure a fired case and bump the shoulder back .002 for each bolt gun. Or you can bump it back .002 for the shorter chamber and check to see if it isn't too much for the longer one and use that setting for both. Just remember, with one of those $7 tools or my home made ones all you get is an arbitrary number.

 

[Walkalong]

Another good read.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/case-gauges.759018/

 

[Axis II]

What about a Hornady headspace gauge? I think my buddy has this so might be able to barrow if that will work. Found this while searching and remember seeing him use something similar

 

[Walkalong]

It will work just fine.

 

[Bart B.]

You can use a 3/8" inside diameter nylon bushing and calipers like this example on a 30-06 case then use it to measure case headspace:



If your sizing die locking ring has marks for .002" height change, adjusting it precisely is easy.



Make some labels for your die lock rings:

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab170/jepp2/DieAdjustment-1.jpgh

 

[Axis II]

It will work just fine.

thanks guys. after your post I said that thing looks familiar and then it clicked. ill be barrowing one this week and get the die set backup correctly. im sure I will have more questions when that happens.

 

[Axis II]

You can use a 3/8" inside diameter nylon bushing and calipers like this example on a 30-06 case then use it to measure case headspace:

View attachment 227248

If your sizing die locking ring has marks for .002" height change, adjusting it precisely is easy.

View attachment 227246

Make some labels for your die lock rings:

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab170/jepp2/DieAdjustment-1.jpgh

Bart

Would that washer size work for 223rem also?

My die doesn't have any marks. I use the lee lock rings for the turret press. base on your pic you only bumped the shoulder back 1 thousandth. should I go 1k each time until it chambers?

 

[Walkalong]

In a perfect world the bushing would have a hole the size of the datum for the case being checked,

.400 for .308

.330 for .223

but it doesn't have to be to get measurements that work. Sinclair makes a bullet comparator, but it can also be used on cases where the neck will fit in one of the holes. It would work for .223.

 

[Bart B.]

Would that washer size work for 223rem also?

No, it's too big. One with a 5/16ths inch hole would be better.

My die doesn't have any marks. I use the lee lock rings for the turret press. base on your pic you only bumped the shoulder back 1 thousandth. should I go 1k each time until it chambers?

Did you understand the way that link said to make your own labels to put on die lock rings?

My die's picture has one of those labels with .002" graduations on it. I printed them on a sheet of label paper then cut them out to fit.

You could put one on your .223 sizing die, set the die to bump fired case shoulders back about .002", then put a green Sharpie ink dot on the label line that aligns with the die body's black index line mentioned in the instructions. Use a different color Sharpie to mark where the lock ring needs to be set for another rifle.

 

[Axis II]

No, it's too big. One with a 5/16ths inch hole would be better.

Did you understand the way that link said to make your own labels to put on die lock rings?

My die's picture has one of those labels with .002" graduations on it. I printed them on a sheet of label paper then cut them out to fit.

You could put one on your .223 sizing die, set the die to bump fired case shoulders back about .002", then put a green Sharpie ink dot on the label line that aligns with the die body's black index line mentioned in the instructions. Use a different color Sharpie to mark where the lock ring needs to be set for another rifle.

Oh I understand what you said now. I was half asleep and took it as you saying if I had it on there it would help and yes I seen the link I will give that a shot. thanks for the info. with the lee lock rings not being able to be locked it would be possible to lose the setting IMO. I will give it a shot though.

 

[Axis II]

You can use a 3/8" inside diameter nylon bushing and calipers like this example on a 30-06 case then use it to measure case headspace:

View attachment 227248

If your sizing die locking ring has marks for .002" height change, adjusting it precisely is easy.

View attachment 227246

Make some labels for your die lock rings:

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab170/jepp2/DieAdjustment-1.jpgh

Bart

Where did you get this type of bushing from? would home depot or lowes carry something like that?

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

a lecture on datums and feeler gauges is imminent

 

[Reloadron]

Bart

Where did you get this type of bushing from? would home depot or lowes carry something like that?

You can get a bushing at Home Depot, Lowes or the like and for a good selection there is McMaster Carr Supply. There is something that you need to get a handle on, where you asked:

if I buy one of these checkers and measure the case and it shows. 2.202 like in Walkalongs post how will I know what to set the die up for?

The numbers really don't mean much, they are strictly a reference number, this is also true of the Hornady L-N-L using the Hornady bushings. You may have noticed the guys mentioning "comparator" quite a bit so here is what is going on. You take a cartridge and fire it. Now while not quite perfect that case expanded to fill your chamber and then shrank maybe about 0.001" when it was extracted, so the case is a fair representation of your chamber the case was fired in. Now using Walkalong's post #2 where we see the 2.202" reading. The 2.202" is merely a reference number. Since the case was not measured exactly from a datum on the shoulder to the case head that number is not really representative of anything but it is a great reference. So now I can place the cartridge in a shell holder on my press and run the ram up and screw my sizing die down. If I just want to set my case back 0.002" I just keep edging slowly the die down and checking my case. When my case (again using Walkalong's example) reads 2.000" I know my case size has been reduced 0.002" measuring case head to case shoulder. We are "comparing" where we began to where we are. Got a handle on that?

Walkalong went on to mention in post #12 the actual case neck diameter points (the Datums) used in the SAAMI drawings. The 308 Winchester SAAMI shows the 0.400 datum point and the 223 Remington SAAMI shows the 0.330 datum point. When used correctly as intended the Hornady L-N-L tool can be useful.

Ron

 

[Axis II]

You can get a bushing at Home Depot, Lowes or the like and for a good selection there is McMaster Carr Supply. There is something that you need to get a handle on, where you asked:



The numbers really don't mean much, they are strictly a reference number, this is also true of the Hornady L-N-L using the Hornady bushings. You may have noticed the guys mentioning "comparator" quite a bit so here is what is going on. You take a cartridge and fire it. Now while not quite perfect that case expanded to fill your chamber and then shrank maybe about 0.001" when it was extracted, so the case is a fair representation of your chamber the case was fired in. Now using Walkalong's post #2 where we see the 2.202" reading. The 2.202" is merely a reference number. Since the case was not measured exactly from a datum on the shoulder to the case head that number is not really representative of anything but it is a great reference. So now I can place the cartridge in a shell holder on my press and run the ram up and screw my sizing die down. If I just want to set my case back 0.002" I just keep edging slowly the die down and checking my case. When my case (again using Walkalong's example) reads 2.000" I know my case size has been reduced 0.002" measuring case head to case shoulder. We are "comparing" where we began to where we are. Got a handle on that?

Walkalong went on to mention in post #12 the actual case neck diameter points (the Datums) used in the SAAMI drawings. The 308 Winchester SAAMI shows the 0.400 datum point and the 223 Remington SAAMI shows the 0.330 datum point. When used correctly as intended the Hornady L-N-L tool can be useful.

Ron

gotcha now. I guess I should just go buy the Hornady measure and do it the right way. just trying to save some money than buy something expensive ill probably never use again after the die is set up.

 

[Reloadron]

gotcha now. I guess I should just go buy the Hornady measure and do it the right way. just trying to save some money than buy something expensive ill probably never use again after the die is set up.

Pretty much you can buy your own like the Hornady as an example or you can roll your own using Walkalong's picture as an example. Either way, your own case comparator system is a good to have.

I will make a suggestion you can take or leave. This is touched on in the link Walkalong posted regarding case gauges. I suggest you buy an actual headspace gauge, preferrably a Go gauge in your popular calibers. The link serves as an example and that gauge could be used to check the Hornady bushing .330 for example. Sort of a "nice to have" to compliment the Hornady gauge.

Ron

 

[Axis II]

Pretty much you can buy your own like the Hornady as an example or you can roll your own using Walkalong's picture as an example. Either way, your own case comparator system is a good to have.

I will make a suggestion you can take or leave. This is touched on in the link Walkalong posted regarding case gauges. I suggest you buy an actual headspace gauge, preferrably a Go gauge in your popular calibers. The link serves as an example and that gauge could be used to check the Hornady bushing .330 for example. Sort of a "nice to have" to compliment the Hornady gauge.

Ron

kind of a dumb question but with my heavy barrel being really tight would the go gauge be a good tool? when I talked to savage about the ammo chambering hard and leaving rings around the bullets and what not they said the chamber was very tight and messing with it could mess with the good accuracy I was achieving. I think she said they just polished it up a bit cause they found burrs and replaced the bolt cause it wouldn't eject rounds. the ejection was the main reason sending it back. I think the guy might have opened the throat a little bit because I was seating to 2.220 with v max and can now go to like 2.232 without rifling marks.

the reason asking about the tight chamber was when I got those brass bombers cases someone on here told me to size a little and chamber and size a little and chamber to achieve tight headspace well checking in my Lyman case checked they were very, very snug but fit the heavy barrel great and shot great. just didn't want to buy the go gauge and have it not work. . but then again I could have no clue what I'm talking about right now.

 

[Reloadron]

kind of a dumb question but with my heavy barrel being really tight would the go gauge be a good tool?

Not at all a dumb question. Here is what I was getting at when I mentioned a Go gauge. The bushings used with the Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge 5 Bushing Set with Comparator have a slight radius to them. Here is an example of a .308 Winchester headspace gauge being measured. The gauge used is a 1.630" Go gauge.

While close a known 1.630" actual headspace gauge measures 1.624" which is a good 0.006" below the actual value. This only matters if you were looking for a true dimension. Since the gauge is generally used as a comparator it really doesn't matter.

When we talk about a chamber being "tight" the word tight can take on several meanings. Chambers, when cut, have a tolerance range. For example a 223 Remington Chamber by SAAMI specification has a range of 1.4636" to 1.4736" taking us from Go to NoGo to Field. A "tight" chamber would have for example a headspace dimension of 1.464". Understand also that headspace has nothing to do with leade or chamber throat. The latter is where your bullet seating depth comes into play. Additionally this is where the term "bullet jump" comes into play.

when I got those brass bombers cases someone on here told me to size a little and chamber and size a little and chamber to achieve tight headspace well checking in my Lyman case checked they were very, very snug but fit the heavy barrel great and shot great. just didn't want to buy the go gauge and have it not work.

Yeah, the idea here is to just size the brass enough, there is no sense in making the brass any shorter. Once the brass fits the chamber that is all we need or want. When that brass is fired it will blow out (expand) to fill the chamber. Make sense?

Ron

 

[entropy]

Or you could just small base size them; they'll chamber in anything then. I do so because I load for several different guns, bolt and semi. Yes, you won't get optimal accuracy, not maximum case life, but you will get reliable chambering and functioning.

<flame suit on>

 

[Bart B.]

kind of a dumb question but with my heavy barrel being really tight would the go gauge be a good tool? when I talked to savage about the ammo chambering hard and leaving rings around the bullets and what not they said the chamber was very tight and messing with it could mess with the good accuracy I was achieving

Headspace gauges for the 223 Rem put nothing past the chamber shoulder. Only between bolt face and chamber shoulder. They don't touch nor measure anything forward of the chamber shoulder.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...space-gauge-kit-sku184000037-26876-52460.aspx

 

[hdwhit]

I have a Savage Axis (regular one, no adjustable trigger) and as I have previously posted, the first time I shot it, I had a great deal of difficulty getting a batch of cartridges to chamber in it. Several posters suggested that I set the shoulder back a little bit more, but that had no effect. What I noticed was that after being resized in my RCBS dies, the diameter of the case near the web was 0.3733 to 0.3734 (SAAMI maximum is 0.376) but when the cases fired from my Axis were measured, they were 0.3731 to 0.3733. That's right, some of the brass coming out of the rifle was the same size or even smaller than the brass that went in. Segregating the brass that was shot in the Axis and neck sizing it for future loadings eliminated the difficult chambering.

I had thought about using a small base die, but the manual that comes with the Axis specifically warns against it.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

I had thought about using a small base die, but the manual that comes with the Axis specifically warns against it.

Does the Axis manual give any reason for not using small base dies or does it simply say to not use them? I am curious about their reasoning.