Time to upgrade my HD gun- epidemic of home invasions in neighborhood

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chaim

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So, like my title says, it is time for an upgrade. In the past couple weeks there have been over 14 burglaries and home invasions in the middle of the day where the attackers kick down doors, with 12 alone in the 8 days since Dec 21 (all within about a half mile of my apartment). Apparently, they may be targeting the Jewish community (and at least, it has been within the community). When I first started hearing about it about a month ago (as rumors around the community) I thought it was just rumors, but a local news channel did a report of a spate of daytime burglaries in the area (the neighborhood straddles the Baltimore City/County line, 4 have been in the county, 12+ in the city, I'm on the city side of the line). So far, most of the homes were unoccupied and no one has been hurt, but it is a matter of time. Meanwhile, a separate group (or tactic) has apparently been targeting my apartment complex to the point where they put letters on our doors warning us not to open our doors to people posing as postmen or utility workers and several people in our complex have fallen victim to these tactics.

For a while my main HD gun has been my 5-shot Taurus 85CH and/or my S&W 442. They fit best in my quick access safe, and keeping them ready is convenient (when I get home I can easily drop the 442 in my pocket). However, a 5 shot snub (especially the lightweight) does not give me very warm and fuzzy feelings when the likelihood of needing it has seemed to have increased given the burglaries and home invasions in the area of late.

Other than buying a new shotgun (I sold my Benelli a couple years ago), which I'll probably be doing soon, which gun that I have should I use:

-S&W 625MG. Upgrading my HD gun is part of why I bought it. However, it doesn't fit in my quick access safe, so I'll either need to keep it unlocked (when I'm home), in a holster (I do sometimes carry it at home), or buy a new bedside safe. Of course, other than when I go to bed and put it in the bedside safe my HD gun is not in a safe and is usually on my person, so it isn't quite as big a deal as it seems. However, I like to holster it and carry it occasionally, but it is a bit big and heavy to be my main choice (and while .45LC is a capable caliber, it does only hold 6 rounds).

-SIG P250c. The Compact is about the size of a Glock 19 (just a tad bigger in most measurements) and holds 9+1 rounds of .45. I can keep it in my quick access safe overnight, and carry it around the apartment pretty easily in my IWB hybrid holster.

-CZ 75B. Full size, but 15+1 rounds of 9mm. 16 rounds (15 in the mag, 1 in the pipe) plus a 15 round reload is reassuring, but during the winter I do prefer a bigger bore than 9mm though (layers of clothing can clog a JHP keeping it from expanding).

-SIG P290RS. I love this gun, 100% reliable, my main CCW when visiting a state where I can carry, and very accurate. For home defense, I'd load it with the 8 round mag (for 9 rounds of 9mm) with the 6 rounder for reloads. Less capacity than the CZ or P250, 9mm instead of .45 with the P250, but I can carry it IWB all day and barely notice it (hence it being my main CCW when I can carry) and I can pop it in a pocket when I want to.

-S&W 65LS. I do love this gun, I've had it longer than the rest and I'm good with it. However, I would download it with .38+P (too much overpenatration to trust .357mag in an apartment), and there seems to be a complete inverse relationship between how much I think I may actually need to use my HD gun and how much I trust .38spl to do the job. Also, if these home invasions involve more than one criminal I'd rather have more than 6 rounds.

-Rossi 461. Same disadvantages of the 65LS plus a 2" barrel instead of a 3" barrel (a definite ballistics disadvantage), but it is much smaller so I can carry it around all day (when at home) more comfortably than the 65. It is a 6-shot so it is a little more comforting than a 5-shot snub.

I have other guns I could use, but these best meet my HD and CCW requirements (I like a DA or DAO for a defensive gun so I don't want to use my 1911 for instance) and aren't too small to want to use for HD (my LCP or the J-frames). I really am leaning towards the .45s, though 15+1 rounds of 9mm and another 15 in the reload would be nice (CZ), the small size of the P290 would be nice (I could pocket it for maximum concealment, it would be comfortable to carry around the longest), and my familiarity with the 65LS would be nice (and I usually do like revolvers for HD). I've always said that I trust 9mm and .38spl, and I long said that I trusted a 5-shot or 6-shot revolver, yet the more the chances I may need them seem to go up the less comfortable I am with them.

So, if it seemed that the chances of needing your home defense gun may have gone way up, which would you choose if it was you on the line? I'm leaning towards the P250c and, given the increased crime in the area, backing it up with the P290 or one of the snubs.

Anyway, off to the range to put some rounds through my P250, 625MG and Rossi 461.
 
Which one will you be able to carry at all times at home. If somebody kicks in your door, you don't have time to run and get it.

It sounds like the Sig 250 or 290 are the ones you favor. One thing consider is the .45 will probably have less penetration thru apartment walls than the 9mm.

Bottom line, which one do you shoot best and will you have it on you when you need it?


Good luck.
 
I agree with Iggy. If youre not wearing it, you wont have it when you need it.
 
You have a nice selection of guns. I would choose the one that is the most comfortable to carry all day.

IMHO the need for firepower (I.e. lot of rounds) when defending against home invaders is not necessary. Criminals have a strong survival instinct. Bullets start coming their way. They quickly lose interest in their original plan.

As you mention you have thin apartment walls to worry about. Personally I carry a 5 shot J-Frame 38 most of the time whether at home or in public but home invasions are uncommon where I live.
 
chaim said:
So, like my title says, it is time for an upgrade. In the past couple weeks there have been over 14 burglaries and home invasions in the middle of the day where the attackers kick down doors, with 12 alone in the 8 days since Dec 21 (all within about a half mile of my apartment). Apparently, they may be targeting the Jewish community (and at least, it has been within the community). When I first started hearing about it about a month ago (as rumors around the community) I thought it was just rumors, but a local news channel did a report of a spate of daytime burglaries in the area (the neighborhood straddles the Baltimore City/County line, 4 have been in the county, 12+ in the city, I'm on the city side of the line). So far, most of the homes were unoccupied and no one has been hurt, but it is a matter of time. Meanwhile, a separate group (or tactic) has apparently been targeting my apartment complex to the point where they put letters on our doors warning us not to open our doors to people posing as postmen or utility workers and several people in our complex have fallen victim to these tactics.

For a while my main HD gun has been my 5-shot Taurus 85CH and/or my S&W 442. They fit best in my quick access safe, and keeping them ready is convenient (when I get home I can easily drop the 442 in my pocket). However, a 5 shot snub (especially the lightweight) does not give me very warm and fuzzy feelings when the likelihood of needing it has seemed to have increased given the burglaries and home invasions in the area of late.

Other than buying a new shotgun (I sold my Benelli a couple years ago), which I'll probably be doing soon, which gun that I have should I use:

-S&W 625MG. Upgrading my HD gun is part of why I bought it. However, it doesn't fit in my quick access safe, so I'll either need to keep it unlocked (when I'm home), in a holster (I do sometimes carry it at home), or buy a new bedside safe. Of course, other than when I go to bed and put it in the bedside safe my HD gun is not in a safe and is usually on my person, so it isn't quite as big a deal as it seems. However, I like to holster it and carry it occasionally, but it is a bit big and heavy to be my main choice (and while .45LC is a capable caliber, it does only hold 6 rounds).

-SIG P250c. The Compact is about the size of a Glock 19 (just a tad bigger in most measurements) and holds 9+1 rounds of .45. I can keep it in my quick access safe overnight, and carry it around the apartment pretty easily in my IWB hybrid holster.

-CZ 75B. Full size, but 15+1 rounds of 9mm. 16 rounds (15 in the mag, 1 in the pipe) plus a 15 round reload is reassuring, but during the winter I do prefer a bigger bore than 9mm though (layers of clothing can clog a JHP keeping it from expanding).

-SIG P290RS. I love this gun, 100% reliable, my main CCW when visiting a state where I can carry, and very accurate. For home defense, I'd load it with the 8 round mag (for 9 rounds of 9mm) with the 6 rounder for reloads. Less capacity than the CZ or P250, 9mm instead of .45 with the P250, but I can carry it IWB all day and barely notice it (hence it being my main CCW when I can carry) and I can pop it in a pocket when I want to.

-S&W 65LS. I do love this gun, I've had it longer than the rest and I'm good with it. However, I would download it with .38+P (too much overpenatration to trust .357mag in an apartment), and there seems to be a complete inverse relationship between how much I think I may actually need to use my HD gun and how much I trust .38spl to do the job. Also, if these home invasions involve more than one criminal I'd rather have more than 6 rounds.

-Rossi 461. Same disadvantages of the 65LS plus a 2" barrel instead of a 3" barrel (a definite ballistics disadvantage), but it is much smaller so I can carry it around all day (when at home) more comfortably than the 65. It is a 6-shot so it is a little more comforting than a 5-shot snub.

I have other guns I could use, but these best meet my HD and CCW requirements (I like a DA or DAO for a defensive gun so I don't want to use my 1911 for instance) and aren't too small to want to use for HD (my LCP or the J-frames). I really am leaning towards the .45s, though 15+1 rounds of 9mm and another 15 in the reload would be nice (CZ), the small size of the P290 would be nice (I could pocket it for maximum concealment, it would be comfortable to carry around the longest), and my familiarity with the 65LS would be nice (and I usually do like revolvers for HD). I've always said that I trust 9mm and .38spl, and I long said that I trusted a 5-shot or 6-shot revolver, yet the more the chances I may need them seem to go up the less comfortable I am with them.

So, if it seemed that the chances of needing your home defense gun may have gone way up, which would you choose if it was you on the line? I'm leaning towards the P250c and, given the increased crime in the area, backing it up with the P290 or one of the snubs.

Anyway, off to the range to put some rounds through my P250, 625MG and Rossi 461.
Click to expand...
A few thoughts:

* See if the landlord will allow you to install a security door in front of the regular door. This is a perforated steel version of a screen door with its own heavy-duty frame. They cannot be kicked in. (It would be nice if the landlord would install them on all the units but that's a separate discussion.)

* To the issue of layers of clothing clogging the hollow point, check out Hornady Critical Defense ammo, it has a plastic tip inside the hollow point for the express purpose of solving this problem. I'm not sure if they make it in every single caliber though.

* To get more capacity you could always wear two guns instead of one, way faster than reloading and one on each side would also balance the load.
 
I feel your pain.

Before we moved to our current retirement house/location where crime rate is low, we lived in cities the past two decades where just about everyone I talked to (friends, coworker, neighbor, etc.) were either victims or knew of victims of robbery/burglary.

We got burglarized 3 times in 2 different cities and the past several years when the crime rate shot up as federal judge panel decided to solve overcrowding in California state prisons by releasing inmates! :fire::cuss: Everyone I knew, even the liberal Democrats at work, felt threatened and bought guns and asked me to train them in defensive shooting techniques.

Yes, organized gang home invasion robberies were real threat where they would monitor a particular city block for several days (for daily routines) and post spotters with radios while several gang members would kick the back door in armed with guns. Police warned while home owners could cooperate, some gang initiations would require the new gang members to kill/some gang members killed for no apparent reason and recommended home owners to be armed to defend themselves until police could respond. My supervisor's brother worked as city police officer and when we had range days together, he told us of gruesome realities of home invasion robberies and urged us to be fully armed and not to let our guards down.

We did the following:

- Installed perimeter metal fence around our house/property
- Installed metal security doors
- Got 3 guard dogs with full access (24/7) to front/side/back yards inside the fence (believe me, they were busy guarding day and night as different suspicious characters checked around the neighborhood and several houses in our block got robbed)
- When we left the house, we always left at least 2 dogs to guard the house
- Wife carried at all times inside the house (her choice of Glock 22/23/27, M&P40/45, PT145/Sig 1911) and pocket carried TCP 738 when outside the house tending to yard/garden/flower bed with phone speed dialed to 911
- Had tactical vests by bed with spare magazines/phones/flashlights to engage multiple intruders if/when the dogs alarmed (Wife was armed with AR15/pistols and I was armed with shotgun/pistols).

The home invasion robberies did not stop and many home owners successfully defended their lives/homes, sometimes killing intruders. The home owners never got charged.

My defensive shooting drill changed the past 10 years and now I always hang multiple 8x11 copy papers on the range target and practice fast draw/double taps to multiple targets and close range point shooting has become an integral part of my shooting drills which I share with all the people I shoot with - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9859706#post9859706
 
1. I strongly also agree with Iggy's post #2.
2. Of the guns mentioned I am going with the CZ 75. While I am not thrilled with hot rounds in an apartment it would be hard to constantly have a shotgun in my hands.

That said, seriously, I would be packing my stuff and moving out. Heck, I am in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs and not too far out. While Cleveland has become a nightmare at least my little corner isn't all that bad. Dude, you have some serious crime in your backyard.

Ron
 
bds said:
- Got 3 guard dogs with full access (24/7) to front/side/back yards inside the fence (believe me, they were busy guarding day and night as different suspicious characters checked around the neighborhood and several houses in our block got robbed)
- When we left the house, we always left at least 2 dogs to guard the house
Click to expand...

So the dogs slept outside?
 
Reloadron said:
seriously, I would be packing my stuff and moving out
Click to expand...
Yes, that was our ultimate and final solution. Now my wife and daughter are calm/relaxed and 3 dogs only have to guard our property against feral cats/gophers.

Since we left, things have gotten worse for the city/county and our friends are also packing up and moving. I think life is too short to hassle with such issues and money is not everything. Besides, having a happy wife is priceless.

old lady new shooter said:
So the dogs slept outside?
Click to expand...
No, the dogs were inside/outside dogs with access through dog doors. Dogs would sleep with us in the bedrooms but were free to run out to any yard if they wanted to. We had a neighborhood watch meeting and the general consensus was we would all get dogs and would not care if they barked all night as long as they alerted each other to suspicious characters (which they did).

It was interesting to sleep with neighbors' dogs barking sporadically with our dogs joining in while they rushed outside but was comforting as we could literally tract someone walking down the street by the dogs' barking. Talking to neighbors, they all said they rather sleep with dogs barking than get robbed/burglarized.
 
In your case I would probably select 2 handguns, a compact pistol you can comfortably carry around your apartment, and a larger, full-size pistol to keep at hand at bedside. I assume you are not going to wear your compact pistol to bed.

I do not live in a high-crime area, fortunately, so I don't feel the need to carry a pistol around my house and I only seldom carry concealed outside the house so my needs are quite different from yours. For a home defense pistol I prefer a full-size pistol which absorbs recoil better and has a longer sight radius. Until recently my bed stand pistol was a Stoeger Cougar chambered in .45 ACP with a Streamlight TLR-2 mounted on the accessory rail. I still like the Cougar a lot but it has a somewhat limited magazine capacity of 8 rounds and it is a DA/SA pistol. I recently replaced it with a SIG P320 full-size also chambered in .45 ACP. It is a striker-fired pistol without manual safety, has an accessory rail and night sights.

My second choice for home defense is my 9mm Beretta 92FS which is quite comparable to the CZ75. Meg-Gar makes flush-fit magazines for both the Beretta 92FS and the CZ75 with an 18rd capacity. They also make a slightly extended "plus 2" magazine for the 92FS that holds 20rds. I suspect they also do for the CZ75. Twenty plus one rounds of modern JHP 9mm +P offers a lot of fire power.

For a compact carry pistol I would choose a 9mm for the additional magazine capacity.
 
bds said:
Yes, that was our ultimate and final solution. Now my wife and daughter are calm/relaxed and 3 dogs only have to guard our property against feral cats/gophers.

Since we left, things have gotten worse for the city/county and our friends are also packing up and moving. I think life is too short to hassle with such issues and money is not everything. Besides, having a happy wife is priceless.


No, the dogs were inside/outside dogs with access through dog doors. Dogs would sleep with us in the bedrooms but were free to run out to any yard if they wanted to. We had a neighborhood watch meeting and the general consensus was we would all get dogs and would not care if they barked all night as long as they alerted each other to suspicious characters (which they did).

It was interesting to sleep with neighbors' dogs barking sporadically with our dogs joining in while they rushed outside but was comforting as we could literally tract someone walking down the street by the dogs' barking. Talking to neighbors, they all said they rather sleep with dogs barking than get robbed/burglarized.
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Same here with our two dogs, bless their little hearts. Anything outside and we know about it. Damn shame as my wife grew up in this house during nicer years. We have thought about moving south now that we are retired. A close friend just passed away in NC leaving a real nice house and property open for sale by his son.

While sometimes I am quick to tell people "You need to move" I need to realize it isn't that easy for many to just up and move. Home defense in an apartment is another problem depending on the walls and layout. Heck, a bullet goes through a wall and hits a neighbor and you have real problems.

Ron
 
* To the issue of layers of clothing clogging the hollow point, check out Hornady Critical Defense ammo, it has a plastic tip inside the hollow point for the express purpose of solving this problem. I'm not sure if they make it in every single caliber though.
Click to expand...

That is one of my favorite self-defense loadings and the only one I use in 9mm and .38spl.

We did the following:

- Installed perimeter metal fence around our house/property
- Installed metal security doors
- Got 3 guard dogs with full access (24/7) to front/side/back yards inside the fence (believe me, they were busy guarding day and night as different suspicious characters checked around the neighborhood and several houses in our block got robbed)
- When we left the house, we always left at least 2 dogs to guard the house
- Wife carried at all times inside the house (her choice of Glock 22/23/27, M&P40/45, PT145/Sig 1911) and pocket carried TCP 738 when outside the house tending to yard/garden/flower bed with phone speed dialed to 911
- Had tactical vests by bed with spare magazines/phones/flashlights to engage multiple intruders if/when the dogs alarmed (Wife was armed with AR15/pistols and I was armed with shotgun/pistols).

The home invasion robberies did not stop and many home owners successfully defended their lives/homes, sometimes killing intruders. The home owners never got charged.

My defensive shooting drill changed the past 10 years...
Click to expand...

Other than carrying and changing my training I can't do too much while I'm renting. It is a commercial apartment complex, not a privately owned condo/house that I'm renting so their rules (which include no mods to the apt) are non-negotiable. I have been checking out additional training.

When I buy a place (here or not) I plan to do a few of the things you mention.

I have wanted a dog for a while, but being single I want to wait until I either have a yard, or it is no longer just me. When I have a house, I can take the dog for a morning and afternoon walk, but other times that nature calls I can let it go out in the yard to take care of it. Most of the breeds I'd get would be somewhat intimidating (Doberman, German Shepard, Boxer, Great Dane, though Great Danes are real gentle giants), others less so (a lab would lick an intruder to death), though a barking dog will be enough to scare off most intruders.

That said, seriously, I would be packing my stuff and moving out.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I am religious again so it isn't so easy. I have to be in walking distance of a synagogue (and that synagogue has to be Orthodox) which limits things a bit. In Baltimore, the main part of the Jewish community is straddling the city/county line and very near some bad parts of the city. The Silver Spring community near DC is in a much nicer suburban area, but on a single teachers salary there is no way I can afford the DC suburbs (DC is now the most expensive metropolitan area in the U.S.). There is a chance I may be moving to Philly next year which has a more spread out Jewish community, though the suburban communities are quite expensive, and the main community is in a questionable part of the city so things will be similar (though this current threat may not be an issue there, it is new here). There is also a chance I may be moving to NJ where there will definitely be suburban communities, but then I'd have to live in one of the few places where the gun laws are no better than here.
 
Oh, and an update...I just read a report from the local citizen's patrol, they put the current number of break ins and invasions in the neighborhood at 16 in just the last two weeks...

I'm heading out to shop shotguns...
 
The Model 65 is idiot proof. And a heavy +P 38 Special (158-grains) is nothing to laugh at. Fire two or three rounds at the first guy through the door and the rest (if any) will change their direction very quickly. You can have the Taurus and/or S&W for back-up. There's 11-16 rounds on hand right there without reloading and without purchasing another firearm.

Think tactics and shot placement, not caliber.
 
I think that you've got plenty of options at hand, but if you need an excuse to buy another gun I won't stand in your way as any excuse is fine with me!

I am more inclined to revolvers myself (personal preference) but I'd probably keep a snub in my pocket, and get a nice comfortable holster for the Sig P250c and wear it on a belt. If you are really very familiar and 110% comfortable with the CZ I'd just use that as my nightstand gun - you don't have to carry it but when you need it you have only 1 manual of arms to remember when waking up from a sound sleep with a burst of adrenaline pumping through youand it is a quality firearm with plenty of capacity.

The modern SD ammo like the Critical defense loads are good stuff - I wouldn't worry about the old stories of HP ammo performance issues when using them.

The S&W 625 is a fine handgun, but IMO is too much of a good thing for dealing with mere humans - even ones coked up on crack&meth - but it makes dandy medicine for bears and wolves and the occasional angry moose.

If I was looking for an HD shotgun, I'd just go with a plain Mossberg 500 that you can customize anyway you like for comparatively cheap money. They are generally as reliable as an axe and if 6 blasts of 12 or even 20 gauge doesn't stop or scare the life out of the home invaders you have to deal with then you're dealing with an army and not a bunch of thugs/hoodlums. Don't buy a high end, expensive shotgun, because unless you're going to be doing alot of duck hunting or skeet shooting, it isn't worth getting a beautiful shotgun that will just get confiscated by the cops if you ever do end up having to use it in home defense.

Main thing is to get plenty of practice time, and study/take classes/read up on strategies and tactics.
 
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If I was looking for an HD shotgun, I'd just go with a plain Mossberg 500
Click to expand...

My first shotgun was a Mossberg 500 which I loved. I sold it when I desperately needed the money and I've missed it ever since. My second shotgun was a Benelli Nova which I never really liked, and I sold it because I didn't like it. With some of the QC issues I've been reading about from Remington, I'll probably get another 500 (or 590) or a Winchester this time around.
 
A shotgun makes a great bedside gun...but for getting up to answer the door, id keep a wheelgun of some sort. Reasoning being, if it were an intruder all dolled up to look "official", that could turn into an up close and nasty encounter once your door came open. IMO, a nice DA 357 or 38 spcl would do well in that role.
 
bds said:
the dogs were inside/outside dogs with access through dog doors. Dogs would sleep with us in the bedrooms but were free to run out to any yard if they wanted to.
Click to expand...

From time to time I think about getting a dog, but the issue of independent exit/entry is always one of the sticking points. Isn't a doggie door big enough for a German Shepherd also big enough for a BG?
 
From time to time I think about getting a dog, but the issue of independent exit/entry is always one of the sticking points. Isn't a doggie door big enough for a German Shepherd also big enough for a BG?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. But imagine the look on a BG's face when he crawls through the doggie door and comes nose to nose with an unhappy GSD!
 
You might consider picking up a door bar like this one. It runs about fifteen bucks online. That one gets pretty good reviews, but you'd probably want to shop around and make sure you're getting a quality product. A bar like that will make your door considerably harder to kick in, and may be worth considering if your landlord won't let you do other modifications to the door.
 
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