CCW & home defense Lots to consider …

[Bartholomew Roberts]

3.) Stopping Power, Capacity, Accuracy, … are all related to me. In most cases when a gun is fired (About 20% of the time a gun is pulled, from what I read about 75% are single shot, 15% two shots, and 5% are 3 shots. Correct me if I am wrong.) If I can put 2-3 shots center of mass from a CCW draw at a decent range all the time, even if the gun only holds 5 rounds, “in most cases”, that will do. That said, from what I read, most CCW guns can hold an extended clip that I can carry elsewhere, that will hold even more rounds.

The scenario you describe above assumes a 100% hit rate in a very stressful situation. By contrast, police officers in cities like LA and NYC average 27-33% hit rates. Your scenario also assumes a single attacker; but multiple attackers are not uncommon (IIRC, 2 attackers is actually the most common assault/robbery scenario in the UCRs).

The single biggest factor in "stopping power" is shot placement. Shot placement consists of two factors - putting the bullet where it can strike the major vital areas and having a bullet that penetrates well enough to continue deep enough without deflection. The FBI recommends a bullet that penetrates 12-18" of ballistic gel. Any bullet that meets the FBI criteria is going to penetrate several drywall-style interior walls if you miss completely.

4.) I live near Phoenix. 118 degrees is hot. You are going to sweat. Sweat and metal parts are not a good combination.

Honestly, I've carried pistols from Florida to Texas along the Gulf. I've even swam with them. The modern anti-corrosion coatings are nothing short of amazing. I know there are some odd people out there with really corrosive sweat; but the Melonite-type coatings, polymer coatings, nickel boron coatings - they really are impossible to screw up with even a casual level of attention or maintenance.

5.) Penetration – Two issues, … stopping the assailant, and stopping the assailant but putting others in danger because the bullets have continued their merry way through the assailant and are exiting on their own flight plan, possibly into bystanders.

I'll just reiterate the FBI criteria 12-18" in ballistics gel (after any intermediate barriers). Over 18" and you are more likely to see shoot-throughs. Less than 12" and you have a round that is limited to certain angles in order to have a good chance of success.

CCW is also different from home defense. I would like to have a couple of guns, that my wife is also comfortable with, and is willing to fire a large number of rounds through, in different locations around the home. We live in an apartment. Easy to shoot through walls, … I have 12 and 20 gauge shotguns, but they aren’t easily accessible … a gun you can’t get to, load, and use, when you need it, in time, is worthless. A gun that endangers innocents, is worse than worthless. A gun that will not eliminate the threat in 1-2 well placed shots, … is worthless, …

I think you have an unrealistic expectation of how effective handguns are. Strictly speaking, if you don't hit the upper central nervous system, even a shot straight through the heart leaves an attacker with the ability (though maybe not the desire) to stay in the fight 12-15 seconds. That can be a long time if they are shooting at you. You must also consider that in a fight for your life, pumped full of adrenaline, your ability to recognize the target is not a threat may lag enough that you fire 1-3 rounds even after the threat is reduced.

There was a shooting with an off-duty police officer where he fired 11 rounds at an armed robber and scored 11 hits; several of which were effective. However, it took long enough for the robber to actually drop that when his slide locked back on his Glock 26, he thought he had a failure to stop. Something to think about.

 

[Manny]

My preference is a Ruger KLCR w/ CT grips loaded with a quality .38+p self defense round for CCW coupled with a Glock 34 or 17L loaded with WW 127gr +p+ and with a mounted weapon light for a bedside gun. To me the combo works terrifically. Lay out lanes of fire to know where a stray shot might endanger others. Carefull placement of furniture such as a book filled bookcase to enhance a backstop can help reduce hazards to others.

 

[peacemaker45]

I'd suggest you go find yourselves a couple of Glock 19s. Then the two of you go take a good pistol course. Gunsite is right there in AZ, and there are more places around. Once you've got some experience carrying and shooting, you'll find you have a better handle on what you want and need, like and dislike than what we can possibly give you over the net. Then you can buy that ultimate carry gun, if you feel the need.

In the mean time, the G19 is small enough not to be too great a nuisance, but big enough to get a reasonable grip on. It's simple to learn, with only one trigger pull and no extraneous buttons, levers, doodads and gewgaws to get in the way. 15 rounds of 9 Luger is nothing to sneeze at. Even in Arizona, you'd really have to try to damage or rust a Glock.

I say the above as a dedicated 1911 guy, by the way.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Penetration – Two issues, … stopping the assailant, and stopping the assailant but putting others in danger because the bullets have continued their merry way through the assailant and are exiting on their own flight plan, possibly into bystanders.

"Over-penetration" assumes a solid center mass hit. Whereas a hit to an assailant's body in which the bullet has a short penetration path and exits (shoulder and periphery of the torso) is more likely and "over-penetration" will happen even with bullets that typically penetrate 8-10 inches.

 

[hentown]

I just refuse to read 1000 words of authoritative-sounding, but overly verbose internet blather, what could be said in 100 words!

 

[huntsman]

^Brevity is the soul of wit, especially on forums

 

[PabloJ]

Best choice Glock 30S.

 

[On An Island]

There are lots of thoughtful opinions and good information posted here. GOOD THREAD!

Blazing, I don't think you missed anything pertinent to consider. In my case, moving from Washington (state) back to Texas has caused me to re-assess my CCW weapons need, also. Long-story-short: I'm trying out the Glock 30S for its smaller size than all my normal carry pistols, its caliber - .45 ACP and it's capacity - 10+1. I've never owned a Glock before (shot several) so it's a bit of an adventure. I'm picking it up next week, so if you aren't in a tearing hurry, I'll have more observations to follow....

 

[JohnBiltz]

I live in Phoenix as well. I carry a Glock 26, the baby Glock. I have no problem concealing it year round. I have a good belt and use the Galco Kingtuck IWB holster. I like Glock but Ruger, XD and S&W in subcompact are good carry guns and offer good capacity in slightly different configurations. If you don't consider capacity that important than there are a number of new single stack handguns out there. For the money the Shield is hard to beat. You are going to have a hard time finding any of these to rent and shoot, as far as that goes they are not easy to find to buy. Cabellas is about the only place I've even seen the XDs and Shield. If you go that route pay attention to the details. You are going to see a lot of differences in the triggers; Glock like triggers in the Shield, SA and DAO (double action only) which I really dislike. I want a Glock like trigger and anything else is a deal breaker.

If you are going to have dedicated house gun and a dedicated CCW gun then you might consider just picking one manufacturer that makes both and have the same handling a controls. Ruger, S&W, XD and Glock are all companies that do this and I think its the smart way to go. Your training a practice then works for both.

Once you get smaller than a Glock 26 or Shield shooting it starts becoming a problem. Handling becomes more difficult and recoil can be brutal. I bought a small pocket .380 and just could not shoot it effectively and sold it. .38 snubs are not a beginners gun, its an experts gun. You are going to have to practice with it a lot and that is not going to be pleasant. Saying all that there are people here who will say all that I said is wrong and for them they will be right. You just have to go out there and try some guns and holsters and see what works. Don't get hung up on getting it right off the bat because very few people do.

Near Phoenix is a large area but there are a number of places to rent and shoot guns. Shooters World has ranges in Peoria and central Phoenix and there are several places on the east side as well. They all offer shooting courses.

 

[C0untZer0]

You read these stories about homeowners coming home and surprising burglars in the act. In that case your CCW becomes your HD gun.

 

[jimbo555]

I prefer 45acp. Springfield xds and Glock 36 are working for me right now. A glock 30s is on my list if they ever arrive in my parts.

 

[ridurall]

Down here in Oklahoma it gets might hot in the summer time. I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II .45 ACP and my wife carries a Walther PP in .40 S&W. Both are carried in Horsehide backed Crossbreed holsters. I treat the leather with Snow seal or Mink oil to prevent the sweat from going through the horsehide backing. I carry all day every day and I've made it a habit so I rarely forget. I’ve learned to dress around wearing my gun and it’s very important to me to have it at all times. I recently had a problem with the Kydex cracking on my Crossbreed Holster and I called them and they told me to just send it back. In less than a week I got a brand new horse hide Crossbreed holster in the mail at no cost.

Ron



I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".

 

[Tomac]

Regarding fears of overpenetration:

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
FBI Academy Firearms Unit
Page 12

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subject at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not more dangerous to bystanders than shots that miss the subject entirely.

Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of tissue.

Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough.

I carry Hornady's Critical Duty in all my 9mm's *specifically* because it appears to reach 15" of penetration regardless of bbl length, right in the middle of the FBI's suggested 12"-18". Of course, the price is less expansion but I believe shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount with all else being secondary.
I'd rather have a bullet w/less expansion that reaches the vitals than a bullet w/more expansion that doesn't (YMMV).
Tomac

 

[Hometeached1]

I vote for glock 19, 30sf, S&W compact 9 or 45 and lastly a Walther p99 in 9mm. For 9mm ammo I'd go 124gr +p Gold dot. For .45, .230gr JHPs or 185gr JHPs. Biggest thing is you and your wife need to handle and shoot as many different pistols as you can. If I had just bought a pistol on what my friends said was good, I'd have a Sig right now, not that Sigs are bad, I shot one of their p226s (yes they really like them) and it was nice, but I shot glock 19 just as good and it cost a lot less. Now it's easier to learn just one trigger pull, but it's not that hard to go from DA/SA with a little practice.

 

[golden]

More info needed

Blazing,

More info would be helpful.

1. Will you be buying only one gun for you and your wife to use?

2. Are you going to buy two of the same guns (like matching GLOCKS or S&W'S) so that you will both be familiar with the operating methods?

In both of the above scenarios, you are going about it the wrong way. Unless you wife is about the same physical size as you (mine is 5 inches shorter and less than 2/3rd my weight), you may want to look for the gun that fits HER & YOU!
My wife is no longer physically strong enough to shoot my BERETTA 92 or GLOCK 19. Even when she was younger, it was really too large for her.
She ended up using my SIG 225 because the gun's weight kept the recoil low enough and the slim grip on the single stack SIG is still comfortable for her to operate. She can reach the trigger without problems and the hammer dropping safety mechanism is simple to understand and operate.

If you are not restricting you purchase to only one gun or the same gun, you may find it works better if you take her to the range and rent some handguns so that she can find what works well for her. This will be especially important if she has not fired a handgun before.

Jim

 

[dcloco]

Great questions....answers follow.

"1.) Stopping power
2.) Penetration vs. over penetration
3.) Size / Comfort for CCW (Carrying / Shooting)
4.) Accuracy
5.) Capacity
6.) Sweat, moisture, …
7.) …"


#1 - MUST fit you. MUST feel like an extension of you. KISS - yes - MUST be easy to operate.

#2 - buy, practice with, and use any name brand defense round.

#3 - practice with it. Practice means repeatability.


It is that simple....I did not cover caliber/stopping power/penetration/accuracy/capacity/size - because the all of these were answered by my answers.