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Times are tough, my friends...

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by 1KPerDay, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    Beateldog you are forgetting economics 102 when excessive profit exists more competition will arise, let a couple new companies start taking some of Remington's/CCI's/Sierra's market share and see what happens. Or you can expect to see smaller companies expand their product line, heck I would love to see Starline get into the rifle brass business.
     
  2. Otto

    Otto Member

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    That's funny...I ordered 11,000 CCI small pistol primers from Cabelas on Tues. and they're on a UPS truck today.
    The laws of supply and demand don't always hold.
     
  3. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    ...........
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  4. hueyville

    hueyville Member

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    KingMt, I am known to be opionated but to make a blanket statement about all LGS's based on an experience at one shop may be harsh. I doubt the online companies are in business just for fun. They won't survive without turning a profit either. That is the goal of all businesses to make a living. I currently own and operate three businesses and actually owned a retail outdoor outfitting store for two years which was the hardest row I ever had. Over half my customers would come in and spend hours leaning on our expertise, sometimes come in for multiple visits, then eventually come in to tell us they appreciate our help but found the item they were interested in for a few dollars less online or on-sale at a big box store. It was disheartening to see how the average customer would eat hours of your time then buy elsewhere over less than ten bucks on a several hundred dollar purchase. It costs a lot of money to operate a hard location and maintain regular business hours. Nothing said you had to buy the ammo from him when it sounds like he may have cut you a deal on the gun. Since your participating in a reloading forum I assume you could have skipped the 40 dollar box of ammo and rolled your own. If he went to the trouble to pay retail from Wallyworld so could have it on his shelf, good on him for going to that effort to keep required inventory. This is a survival economy for most small businesses and when they get an opportunity to turn a dime they need to while they can. Otherwise they won't have operating capitol for when times are not good for their industry. My LGS's have raised their prices based on increased prices from distributors but the only one that is "gouging" has product sitting on shelf not moving. Seeing the prices people admit to paying on this board they are still cheap at 42 per thousand for primers but the other two are holding at 32 per thousand.

    Beetledog seems to have a handle on this deal and how the business works. Just as food for thought. Only one of my businesses is retail now. It is in a paid for building with no rent or payments or I would have to close it. In our current market an average retail store front of ~1,000 square feet rents for around 2,000 per month. My retail business average daily expenses without rent is ~600 dollars per day before any salaries are paid. Liability, workmens comp, health insurance, business licensing, utilities, phone, website, and all adds up. Thus we have to move 1,800 dollars worth of product per day to break even on expenses. Then add in salaries for just two employees is another 400 per day plus matching social security etc. That is another 1,200 in product to pay the help. Unless we turn 3,000 a day I lose money. Looking at running a business from real world perspective is tough. God forbid a truck or major piece of equipment breaks. Now look at the gun industry and the idea the federal government is currently trying to outlaw 50% of their current product. If that happens these LGS's are going to die. Then when you consider the loyalty of the majority of customers lies with wherever they can source a product for a couple dollars cheaper, I don't see how most gun shops make it. In fact, more seem to fail than succeed long term. In 2001 following the 9/11 disaster my business dried up for three months as the country was in shock. I had to pull 20,000 dollars out of savings to keep payroll met during that setback. Following the 2008 market crash and housing crash I operated at loss for two and a half years before we got our businesses restructured to meet the new economy. I went that entire time without a single paycheck for myself so that the help didn't have to hit the unemployment line.

    Last real world statistics I read say 50% of new businesses fail in first six months. The ones that succeed take two years before turning a profit. It drives me nuts when folks that have never run a business accuse the ones that take the risk of financial ruin to offer a service to the community of charging too much for a product compared to Wallyworld or the internet. I miss my local hardware store that had service and expertise to offer. How many people would be able to enjoy the shooting sports without the guys behind the counter at a LGS being there to offer the expertise and advice on products? Factor in the LGS does not have enough ammo to sell currently because the big box stores get first choice. If an LGS owner has to go to Wallyworld to buy ammo to support his customers, I say kudos to the man that will so he can offer up a box of ammo when he sells a customer a gun. You could have beat him to Wallyworld and bought that box of ammo for the price he paid. Instead he risked his own money, put it on a shelf that costs money to keep the ammo sitting on, so he could be better prepared to sell a pistol he had invested capital in. I hope that some day the playing field gets leveled so small businesses are more able to be competitive with online and big box stores again. Just like I am not be opposed to an import tax on ammo or other foreign goods so that people were given more incentive to buy American made as opposed to import. I want to see my LGS make a good living so he can be there next year when I need a product instead of waiting on some person I never met to put it on a truck. I want to see my fellow countrymen working as opposed to buying a product 10% cheaper from a foreign vendor. We can can continue to outsource everything and not only will our local vendors fail, but our entire country will also. Guess we need to start teaching Chinese in our schools if our kids want jobs in the future.
     
  5. subman47

    subman47 Member

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    hueyville is so right
     
  6. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    I been stopping at every little Gunshop/hardware store/gunsmith shop I see as I drive around the country. Funny thing is, this frenzy seems to not have hit the many small rural towns around here.:) While the big box stores like GM and Scheels are outta everything, places like "Bob's gunsmithing and archery" have components on their shelves still covered with dust. If I find someplace that has something I use, I buy it whether I need it or not. Stopped at a little outta the way shop in a town I've been working in the last few months and bought 8000 primers just yesterday. 2000 each of SP, SPM and 4000 WLP. $31.99 a thousand. Also bought a 4# jug of W296, a 4# jug of W231, 2# of IMR4227 and 2# of Unique. All of the powder was priced at before frenzy prices. They also had 4 boxes of .45 caliber 300gr Gold Dots(my preferred hunting bullet for my .460)with a handwritten price of $15.99 a box on them. :eek:I left broke, just under 5 c-notes lighter, but pretty dam happy. While the shop owner knew there was a shortage, he didn't believe me when I told him he had the only SP primers I had seen in over a month of lookin'.
     
  7. TonyT

    TonyT Member

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    I would start shoting an airgun before I paid those scammers the outrageous prices they are quoting for primers. The manufacturers have not increased the prices to their distributors so it price gouging at the retail level and perhaps with some distributors.
     
  8. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    You are so wrong at every part. I didn't blanket all small gun shops. I said all of them that I know. Every gun I bought from this guy I knew what he gave & offered him a fair profit. He never thought about the offer because he knew he was making a lot of money off them. This time I didn't even make a offer & paid the sticker price. $40 on a $10 box of shells isn't a reasonable profit. He was a smart man to make 200% profit on that box of shells since I bought my next rifle with the $1000 price tag at Walmart. People remember how you take advantage of them.

    I did start reloading for this cartridge but at the time it was the first gun I had in that chamber. Wife still has one but I gave mine to my sister.

    I also ran a Advance Auto Parts for several years so I do understand retail. I also tried the Swans Food for a while. I always done better at sales by treating my customers well & had to go fix the stores that was failing because they didn't. If I got sent to a store the manger was already gone or soon would be with the exception of two.

    I know I'm not anything spacial to these online retailers but when places like Powder Vally, GIBrass(Jeff), & the sweet lady at FS Reloading makes me feel like I am it makes me want to spend my money with them. It is a big plus that they mail it to me since I don't have to go out of my way & take time I don't have. It is also nice to know I saved a few dollars. Getting ready to spend about $500 with FS Reloading now. They know so much more about there product then the morons around here that sell guns & ammo.

    There is one gun shop around here that is out of my way & there a little high but they do have at least as much knowledge as me. If I get to stop in I like talking to these guys & I'll buy from them. There not really a small time Ma & Pa place tho.
     
  9. KansasSasquatch

    KansasSasquatch Member

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    The problem with the gougers isn't he local gun shops that are selling at elevated prices. They will either survive or go out of business based on what they charge and the willingness of customers to pay those prices. The problem is the guy down the street, buying EVERYTHING at Walmart and the LGS on a consistent basis, just to turn around and sell it for 5x the store price. With so many people doing it, it makes it look like there's a shortage and the people that don't know any better pay the ridiculous prices. Then the rest of us have to rely on anything we might have stashed or hope to find a "deal", a deal being non elevated prices.
     
  10. Constrictor

    Constrictor Member

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    the thing about so called "gougers" is you dont know what they paid for the stuff usually. I have had my local range asl me to sell them some 22 ammo just so they could have some on the shelf. I made a tiny profit before i sold it to them so they had a higher cost.
     
  11. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Kansas, the solution to that is to stop buying at 'elevated' prices altogether, then MR. BuyItAll gets stuck holding the bag, and has to sell it at normal prices (or a loss) to put food on the table.

    :)
     
  12. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    I agree.
     
  13. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    Kachok, I didn't forget that concept; it was simply beyond the scope of the original point.

    I'd love to see more competition in the rifle brass field as well, as well in the primer making field.
     
  14. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    I hope to never pay inflated prices. I was stocked for probably a year or more. But I'm starting to believe the shortages may last longer than that. I can't even buy Hornady 223 gas checks. And I couldn't hardly buy Zero jacketed bullets even before the shortage!

    Before I started reloading I was shooting a lot less, and I was happy. I only started shooting buckets of ammo at a time because of reloading. If I can't reload at the old price, I will certainly be adjusting my ways.

    I have a local supplier with some primers at jacked up prices. And there's always Back Page, where everyone and their cousin is trying to sell primers for triple last year's price. And that's fine with me. It just means I know what I might have to pay if my stockpile runs completely dry. These guys are providing a service. Means you don't have to worry so much about not having ANYTHING, at all.

    If it comes down to it, I can see myself counting down the rounds. Down to where I have to start shooting that crude milsurp gun collecting dust at the back of the closet. Down to where I am carrying around a gun with my last mag of ammo in that caliber. Maybe I'll take out the cartridges and polish them once a month, lol. I look forward to that, more than to overpaying for stuff today just to increase my "hoard." Maybe I'll watch "The Road Warrior," again, to remind me what a "real" ammo shortage would feel like, lol. But what I won't do is to stock up on overpriced components, just in case they are even more expensive or unavailable, later. If they were this expensive, I never would have gotten this deep into the hobby to begin with! Even before the price crunch, I always felt the hit of what I was paying. This is a unique sort of hobby in that you're literally burning money in exchange for some ragged holes on paper. I reckon the only thing worse is golf. :) I'll probably hold onto enough ammo for SD use or for hunting, and even enough for sharing with friends and neighbors for the same. But that doesn't take a whole lot.

    It's been awhile since I took my air rifle out for a spin, anyway. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  15. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    I wish I'd stocked up more on 9mm components.

    At the time the shortage started I had (what I thought) was a good supply; about 1500 projectiles, 3000 small pistol primers. I have a massive bucket of brass, and enough Bullseye to shoot 9mm until it's time for me to take a long dirt nap.

    Well, this week I've been loading for the upcoming USPSA season. I've got two matches a month scheduled from April through November. I have enough loaded ammo left to get me through April, and enough components to get through May (maybe). I can stretch it out to mid summer if I don't train in the off weeks. (Normally I'd burn through 1000 rounds a month in 9mm).

    Hopefully the projectile situation resolves itself at some point within the next few months. I don't like shooting the 45's in competitions and don't want to find myself changing from minor to major mid season. :(
     
  16. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    You could buy a mold but I think they cost like a million dollars these days.
     
  17. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    YEP that would be really nice, would also like someone else to make a 4064 burn rate powder, I am OUT and have not seen any since this mess started. Lucked up and found Big Game, RL22, Blue Dot and finally found 4350 but 4064 has eluded me. Bought four bricks of primers right after the school shooting happend, I could read the writing on the wall, just wish I would have had the extra $$$ on hand to grab up a few more powders and some more 165 Game Kings.
     
  18. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    You will not find any gas checks in 223 or 30cal, either. We have some industrious types selling homemade aluminum checks on Ebay, already.

    If you ever do find a Lee mold for your firearm, it's not a bad "investment." They are (or were) only $20.00 each.
     
  19. splattergun

    splattergun Member

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    Soon is soon enough to suit me. A few weeks? I dunno, I don't care.
    The fact that my local store had several varieties of powder that weren't there the week before, the fact they had guns and ammo that weren't there before, and the fact that the shelveswere not emptied immediately tell me that things are beginning to turn around. I can wait.
    I'm not going to pay $52 for primers! I don't care if you do, it's your money. I'm not playing the gouge game this time.
     
  20. KansasSasquatch

    KansasSasquatch Member

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    Trust me Trent, I'm not buying anything at "scare" pricing. I've been watching my local Cabelas about as much as I possibly can. I've only been reloading for a year and had no idea this would happen with reloading components. I'm stocked up decently on primers for the shooting I'll do this year, picked up 6000 Tula .223 primers from Powder Valley, 2000 Federal SPM from Cabelas, and 2000 CCI LPP from Cabela's. The 150 Win LRP that I have will probably last me 2 years. I've had to scrounge up usable powders but I'm sure I can get by with the 10-12lbs of various stuff on my shelf. Bullets are the components giving me trouble, locally at least. I'll probably make an order with MBC in a week or two and wait on them. The 1000 .224 bullets I have would normally last me 3 months, guess I'll have to stretch them out or get lucky.
     
  21. JT-AR-MG42

    JT-AR-MG42 Member

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    1K,
    Never heard of fire problems with bi-metal bullets, just steel cores and tracers. You will lose your membership at either club I belong to (several fires at both from steel cores) if caught shooting any of the latter two.
    Your range must be a bit drier than mine and a magnet cannot distinguish between bi-metal and steel core.

    I have reloaded with 4895 and the 55gr. in a .223. Going from memory.
    I was shooting 25.5 grains, that filled the case as I recall, with tracers. The stick powder seems to light them better than ball powder. Functioned my 16 fine, but I never did chrono them.
    748 is the powder of choice for me, as it meters MUCH better.

    If you are still looking for dies and 55gr. FMJ bullets as you mentioned in your OP?

    I've got a standard base RCBS size die/shell holder with the RCBS competition (straight line) seating die/extended shell holder (their version of the Vickerman with micrometer adjustment) lying around.

    The competition seating die is new and while I've never tried it, I believe it will only work in a single stage. 4895 doesn't meter well, so it might be the ticket.
    Could probably round up 300 non-magnetic 55gr. FMJs to send along with them.

    If you still have the need, let me hear back or PM me your address and I'll send them.

    JT
     
  22. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    I think things are slowly getting better. Heck I stopped into Wal-mart today and they actually had 4 boxes of .223 sitting on the shelf. It was Tula, but better than nothing. I bought the allowed 3 at $5.30 per box.
     
  23. leadchucker

    leadchucker Member

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    I found two pounds of Hodgdon Universal for $22 each at a gun show today. That blew my mind. While I was paying for them, I asked the guy about small pistol primers, and he said he had them too. I thought I had lucked out until he told me they were $75/1000. That blew my mind too.
     
  24. lightman

    lightman Member

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    I have been accused of hoarding but I keep enough stuff on hand to dodge these crises. This was not the first one of these, and the last one was not the first either! It happens about anytime that it looks like a Dem will win a major election. I do feel sorry for the newby, just getting started, and the guys on a tight budget, as I have been there. Sometimes economics 101 sucks! Lightman
     
  25. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Awesome! PM sent. Thanks!:cool:
     
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