Tj Maxx Hostage

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trigun87

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I was watching the news tonight and there is an alleged hostage situation with multiple gun men and bound hostages. Ironically I went to this Tj Maxx not a week ago. Well my question is If one was there today armed as I usualy am, should one take steps to prevent this? I know as an ccw Im not the police etc. BUT this doesnt appear to be a standard smash and grab or robbery, these BG's took the time to barracade themselves inside and tie up hostages.

What would You do In a true hostage situation if you are armed?
 
TRIGUN 87 - " ... with multiple gun men ..."


With "multiple gunmen" and you alone with your handy dandy handgun, you've got yourself a real problem!!

How many extra rounds are you carrying, by the way?

What is your training in handling "multiple gunmen?"

How often do you practice for such a scenario??

In that situation, in my opinion, you start blasting away and one... or two... or three of those gunmen are gonna make you look like a piece of tripe.

If it were I, I'd try my best to get the hell out the back way, or some exit they had not blocked.

If no exit, I'd have to just evaluate everything as to floor layout, cover, position of bad guys, their weaponry, if possible, their intentions, etc., etc., etc.

A very, very dangerous situation, no matter how you slice it.

L.W.
 
You probably weight the odds of everybody making it out alive if you engage (which probably ranges from good to real poor) versus the odds of you making it out alive if you don't (which probably ranges from good to real poor).
 
i have often wondered about that same situation. After taking my CCW class, it would be hard for me to just sit by. But there are a lot of variables that you have to consider.
1.What are the actual intentions of the BG. Nearly impossible to tell
2. Are they calm or jittery
3. How are the other hostages reacting
4. What is the possible reaction if your weapon is discovered by the BG
5. Are you ready to kill 1 or all of the BG if you get the chance
6. Are you prepared for the consequences if your attempt fails, and another hostage get hurt or killed by your actions
7. Are you prepared for the legal repercussions if you succeed or fail: qrongfull death suits, gross negligence, homicied(wrongfull or other)
8.

Hostage situations arevery volitile situations. The way it goes can change from minute to minute. If you do nothing will the out come be everyone gets out safely. If you do something, will you incapasitate the BG's and be the hero. Will you only take out one or two and have the situation fall apart and get other hostages pr you self killed.
It's easy to say you could live with having to kill someone, especially a BG, but how would you feel if a innocent person was injured or killed because of your actions. I read a story in one of my Guns & Ammo magazines last year about a store owner that was robbed and shot in the head, he followed the perp outside and shot at him. A female that was near by that the BG was trying to use as a hostage/shield got accidentally hit by one of his bullets. The BG was apprehended, the woman was ok, clean bullet wound, she recovered just fine, but she filed a lawsuit agains the store owner for shooting her. He was cleared of any and all charges, due to police and FBI testimony and satatistics of tunel visions and the like.
The store owner got luckey. What if he had killed the woman while going after the BG. His justification ws that he did not want the BG to shoot someone else.
Like I said, I would have a hard time just letting it happen. But I would try to keep a level head and see if a clean opportunity opened up to either disarm/disable the BG's and or help to PO's. These days a "good samaritin" can face more legal problems then a BG facing an assault or robbery charge.
It's a stickey situation. I have heard the police and such say to try to stay out of a situation as much as possible and let them handle it. I have seen people that try to help get hauled off right along with the BG; use of excessive force, impeeding police, etc.
 
A situation like that has to be carefully thought out and perfectly exectued.

The only way I could see performing it is to figure out how many of them there are, then when looking away, and all in sight, quickly draw and fire upon them. Keep in mind if there is any error, they may start killing hostages instead of hanging around for their demands to be met, etc, which is now on your hands for performing a botched operation.

This is one of the times I would say leave it to the pros....they're on site...and they have a better idea of how to deal with it than average joe can. If it was not an obvious hostage situation, I'd say risk it....however this would put the person trying this into grave danger, as well as massive lawsuit action in the event of a fellow hostage being shot.
 
Being herded into a back room or tied up is where I draw the line. It is too often a prelude to being killed. Depending on the situation, I am out of there, whether I have to shoot my way out or not.
 
Not trying to be snotty, but...

Hostage Response Teams have to educate and train for years to handle such a situation. And sometimes they are unsuccesful.

But you think you can do it any day of the year, because you have a CCW.
 
What would I do? I think any situation that looked like I was being "rounded up" has a high chance of a poor outcome. I would be more than happy to hand over money or possessions but handing over freedom to a thug with a gun and some zipties is more than I am willing to do. The way I see it I am giving them permission to kill me when I submit to being tied up.

I don't have any illusions about my abilities with my pistol. The broad side of a barn has little to fear from me. I am not a tacticool professional. I am just not willing to be a sheep. The hostage response team gets to go home at the end of the day no matter what happens to the hostages.

Mine may not be the correct response but it is what I would try to do.
 
I will not let myself be tied up or blindfolded, or forced to walk with my back turned to an armed BG without fighting. I will not let myself be locked up in a room with no clear way out. I will not let my wife and children be taken from me without fighting and I will struggle with the possibility of them being shot rather than kidnapped and raped. That's all I can say.
 
My plan is to get the hell out of the way and to a point of safety. Regardless of whether I am armed or not.

If along the way I can help other people safely, I would probably do so. But I am getting out if I can and not worrying a whole lot about much of any thing else.

These kind of things are chaotic at best. There is no way to know just what is going to be happening. Plan on getting the hell out. If something goes wrong with the plan maybe you have to shoot your way out. But I am not planning on doing anything heroic. I might end up doing something different just because of circumstance, but thats the plan.
 
Not trying to be snotty, but...

I don't think you tried very hard.
The OP wasn't saying that he could do an HRT's job anywhere in his post. In fact, he said
I know as an ccw Im not the police etc
, which pretty much negates the reason for you to say what you did. He has simply put forth a question to the group asking what we would do in a situation that he very likely could have found himself in.
 
I have often wondered about this too. I think in the end you can't stop and think about what could or could not happen to the other people in the store. In the end it comes down to you and your family making it out of there alive. Regardless of the consequences.
 
An interesting question, put yourself into some recent situations in the news. Ft. Hood, school rapes, beatings, quick mart robberies. Would an armed person have made a difference good or bad? How would you react? Think of some of these assults done by approving crowds, do you just wade in there shooting or physically try to break it up and end up with the crowd turning you into a victim also?
I agree that I will fight to get my familly out and keep going in till they are all safe or I am dead same as if my house was on fire, what to do about others is a different question.
 
Trying to save the day with a wee sidearm vs. multiple loons with long guns is suicide for you and probably a good way to get others killed.

But that does NOT mean you can't use your sidearm to help YOU get out of there. Sounds selfish, but that's precisely what the handgun is for--defensive use. It can at least give you an edge at escape before they round you up, and if you see such a chance take it. Do not try to engage all of them. Just kill any who try to stop you and get out! Even if that means jumping out a window.
 
I guess it really depends on the situation. If they are just looking for my wallet and my cell phone, then I will kindly hand it over. If it seems they have more malicious objectives, I would much rather go out in a hail of gunfire then be bound/gagged/tortured etc. But I think in a situation where you are clearly out numbered and out gunned it would be best to turn and high tail it out of there. Plus who knows, they could have body armor then your sidearm is even less useful.
 
i have to add that I had any opportunity to intervene I would probly take it. Especially if my family was with me. I wouldnt allow my self to be tied up and the like. It may not go well, but too many people are standing by and doing nothing when they have the ability to do something about a bad situation. ie, the kid set of fire in Florida, there were almost as many people watching and doing nothing as the ones that set him on fire.
There are too many "sheeple" afraid to put them selves out there to help some one. People talk about this world going to hell in a hand basket because of criminals and gun violence, but there are more that witness and do nothing to help or stop a situation, because "it doesn't concern me". I'd be just as mad at the person who assaults me as I would be at anybody that saw it happen/ing and did nothing to help.
If it were the other way around, and someone else did something to intervene and I got hurt, I would not be angry with them, cause I would be helping. As soon as BG's realize that people aren't going to just get hearded around, they change their tactics, get flustered, and start to change their minds. Just like a bully. As soon as you act back, they start to think they made a big mistake. Just think how a robbery would go if there was either two or more people with a weapon, CCW or not, that are not going to get pushed around. How would it go if there were a group of CCW carriers in that group that felt the same way? Criminals and criminal activity would drop dramaticly because they know there are more people out there that aren't going to take it any more.
I know alot of people aren't going to agree with my opinion, but alot are. but thats what this thread was about.
 
Ozark, Ozark, Ozark....

It's next to impossible to predict how you will respond to any situation, especially an event in which your life, and the life of others is on the line. Even with extensive training, mental crisis management preparation, and the right tools for the job, the outcome of taking offensive (no, it is not defensive) actions in a situation such as this could be very unfavorable. While there always remains the slight chance you would be able to pull off a Hollywood-esque counter offensive against numerous assailants (of whom you know nothing about, regardless of how observant you may think you are) the odds are strongly against you.
If you truly believe in such a situation that you will be in an effective state of mind, where you have the ability to sit back and analyze the events taking place around you (without extensive training), you are either quite naive or a man amongst mice. I find it hard to believe you will be able to gauge how the assailants are acting, or how the other hostages are acting. Unless you are a trained psychologist or have been in the same situation numerous times, you wouldn't know the difference. How do you know how an assailant acts in such an event, or for that matter a hostage? What would you compare their "calm or jittery[ness]" to? Do they teach this in CCW class?
Furthermore, if you haven't yet weighed the incentives (not saying you have or have not), positive and negative, of taking ones life in order to protect your own, you do not need to be carrying a concealed weapon. Just because you have a nail and hammer, doesn't mean you know how to build a house. In the small window of time where you might have an opportunity to thwart such an attack as described in this thread, I highly doubt you would have time, or the ability, to answer moral questions. Either you are prepared, or you aren't.
I don't understand when you say "I'd have a hard time not doing anything". You should have a VERY hard time doing something.

"Just think how a robbery would go if there was either two or more people with a weapon (legally CCW I assume)"....I think it could be very bad. Just because someone has a piece of paper that says they can CCW, doesn't mean they know how to defend themselves or others. If I were in such an event and someone like yourself began shooting, and injured myself or perhaps my children, I'd be very angry.
Violent crime will exist with or without Concealed Weapon Permits. You cannot explain a criminals mentality, unless you are one. You don't know how they will act.
Just because you have a license doesn't mean you are equipped with the fine mental tools it requires to defend yourself effectively and safety. Yes, you might be more effective with a handgun, then your bare hands, but you might be a lot more dangerous as well Trust me, I see many people with a license for a weapon just as deadly as handgun, and they don't how to use it effectively or safety. Just go out on the freeway and you will understand.

Just some things to think about.
 
After taking my CCW class, it would be hard for me to just sit by.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think it would be in your best interest to avoid that kind of thinking.

Guns are not magic talismans that instantly turn you into an action hero, and neither is a CCW class.

While you can't expect the police to be there to protect you (hence the CCW) you can expect them to work damn hard at defusing a hostage situation with minimal loss of life. Just wait for them to do their jobs, keep a low profile, and only use your weapon if you have absolutely no other choice.

If you want to be a hero join the fire department.
 
If you decide to carry a gun you better think about what happens if someone with evil intent finds it on you. Not to mention giving and extra to the crooks. What to do if confronted with the surrender or fight is quite a question to ponder, I for now will take the cowards way out and take my family and head for the door.
I am sure there is some data on what the shoot vs. release unharmed ratio is that might aid in a making the choice. It seemed for a long time that a lot of convineience store roberies ended badly and I recall a pizza shop that had people ushered into the back and executed. The choice is not about being a hero but more about being alive.
 
Something along these lines happened around me recently, where a mental patient came to a hospital on slice his doctor up pretty badly, and a ccw permit holder took him down. Guy was an off duty security guard, so no real "extensive training" to speak of (no HRT or something like that). Probably saved the doctor's life and maybe some others. I guess all I'm really trying to get at is that once the BG's intentions/actions get violent, it's a different situation, and you may have to act lest your life be in immediate danger.

That being said, he was in a situation with one assailant. One on one, your odds are a lot better than one v. multiple shooters. If you happened to find yourself in a situation with more than two, or two that are well spread out, it would be a better idea not to start the shooting, unless you are in a situation where you're going to lose your weapon or your life if you don't. I definitely agree with some posters that most times you should do nothing except try to get clear of everything, but then again, you might have your back against the wall at some point. If you found yourself in the middle of a robbery or something like that, well, let the guys get the money and go-they're not your problem. A real hostage situation, though, especially in today's world, is a different ordeal altogether.

I'm definitely not saying this in any mall-ninja type of way either. I have no illusions that any of us is going to do anything on the level of FBI HRT or something from the movies. The chances of being involved in something like this are extremely low, but it's not a bad idea to spend some time thinking about it, or any other situation where you might need to defend yourself or your family, because if you're going to carry, you want to have an idea what your options might be in a given scenario, even though the hope is definitely to never be involved in anything. It's not that different from thinking about your options if someone breaks into your house-a much more likely scenario-you want to have some ideas and a loose plan in place so that if, God forbid, it happens, you're not shooting from the hip (pardon the pun). It's the same reason real HRT teams train for such a wide variety of missions, and hash out even more-if the call comes, they're not doing anything blind. Every situation is different, and most of the time your best bet is going to be hold your peace, get the heck out of there and let the pros do their job, because yours is likely not freeing hostages.

Don't forget that most hostage situations happen by mistake, the takers get boxed in in a botched criminal effort, and are looking for a way out, or a bargaining chip for a way out, not a reason to give the police more incentive to kill them, so it is likely a much better idea not to give the taker(s) a reason to hurt any hostages. If they're taking hostages for the sake of taking hostages, and you can't get out, you're in a very bad situation, and it's at your discretion how to proceed.
 
Change that to an active shooter or a terror attack like they had at the hotel in India and it changes dramaticaly, not everyone will be subject to this but some are and will be. We cannot train to the level of HRT but having a mindset and some chain of thought seems to be a solid stratagey.
 
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