To red dot or not to red dot...

[JERRY]

I'm fairly old school on things; no I don't carry a model 10 with a drop pouch. However I am one of the few people that carry a backup gun in uniform in my area. I'm a firm believer in 129 woven kevlar over hybrid polymer blends. I still have patrol boots instead of sneakers.... And I have concealable body armor instead of the over the shirt uniform vest carrier.

However today at range qualifications blah blah blah there was extra time so I took a look at the red dot on one of the swat guy's pistol. I took a few shots. I took a few more.... I'm sold.

I was never resistant to the idea I just didn't think it made much difference. And well it doesn't make much difference but it does make some difference, particularly at distance. I'm now saving up my pennies for a red dot for my duty and gun.

Has anyone else been converted recently? Did you change because it was the "in thing" to do, or because it actually helped you, or you just thought you'd give it a try and you liked it better?

 

[Lo-Profile]

They do the best in a situation where you might need accurate longer shots.
If I was still employed in EP I'd be all over a RDS. Now, retired and more concerned with personal self defense I don't see a need.
Besides, past trauma has made me very weight sensitive

 

[Smokin Gator]

I've started shooting an optic in competition for about a year now. It's getting better as time goes on. But I was in no way convinced they were the way to go the first time I shot with one.
If you are just standing in one position taking your time shooting a target that first day may go alright. But initially trying to quickly transition between targets, moving, shooting from other positions, leaning, strong hand weak hand, etc. took some time to adjust to.

 

[jmorris]

I was never resistant to the idea I just didn't think it made much difference. And well it doesn't make much difference but it does make some difference, particularly at distance.

I have been shooting dots on my open pistols for years but the newer slide mounted ones ease the acquisition issues vs irons. The older your eyes get the more difference they make.

 

[Bcwitt]

I'm not a fan. I find the fastest self defense type shooting is by keeping eyes on the target & just shoot. For shots that need sighted, a large open blade w tritiums would be my preferance.

 

[shafter]

They are absolutely the way to go now however they may not be optimal for every situation and there is a learning curve.

They are faster than irons at both close range and distance, the precision ability is way superior, and the ability to be targeted focused is a significant advantage.

I'd stick with Aimpoint or Holosun and pay attention to battery life. The advertised battery life is often at one of the lowest settings and not the setting you will actually use. Change batteries before you need to, keep your lens clean, and get reps in and you're good to go.

 

[ms6852]

I tried a red dot on my browning buckmark once and then took it off. Before the red dot I could put all ten shots in a 2 inch circle at 25 yards with cci ammo. Once I put the red dot I was all over the place, I personally did better with open sights.

 

[Peakbagger46]

I'm fairly old school on things; no I don't carry a model 10 with a drop pouch. However I am one of the few people that carry a backup gun in uniform in my area. I'm a firm believer in 129 woven kevlar over hybrid polymer blends. I still have patrol boots instead of sneakers.... And I have concealable body armor instead of the over the shirt uniform vest carrier.

However today at range qualifications blah blah blah there was extra time so I took a look at the red dot on one of the swat guy's pistol. I took a few shots. I took a few more.... I'm sold.

I was never resistant to the idea I just didn't think it made much difference. And well it doesn't make much difference but it does make some difference, particularly at distance. I'm now saving up my pennies for a red dot for my duty and gun.

Has anyone else been converted recently? Did you change because it was the "in thing" to do, or because it actually helped you, or you just thought you'd give it a try and you liked it better?

I was forced into the RDS thing several years ago when my agency adopted them (along with stepping back from .40 to 9mm).

They can be nice but have a big training curve, particularly in acquiring the dot on the draw, even if you’re damn proficient at practical handgun fighting.

Sounds like you are in an agency where you have to buy your own gear. In your shoes I probably would stick with irons.

If you can’t help yourself and just have to have one, automatic brightness adjustment is a must for what we do in various lighting conditions. Don’t dick around with lower cost options and just go Trijicon RMR.

Then enjoy thousands of draws and dry fire to find that damn dot quickly.

 

[shafter]

I was forced into the RDS thing several years ago when my agency adopted them (along with stepping back from .40 to 9mm).

They can be nice but have a big training curve, particularly in acquiring the dot on the draw, even if you’re damn proficient at practical handgun fighting.

Sounds like you are in an agency where you have to buy your own gear. In your shoes I probably would stick with irons.

If you can’t help yourself and just have to have one, automatic brightness adjustment is a must for what we do in various lighting conditions. Don’t dick around with lower cost options and just go Trijicon RMR.

Then enjoy thousands of draws and dry fire to find that damn dot quickly.

I caution people against automatic adjustments for law enforcement particularly because of the possibility of shooting from a dark place into a light one and vice versa. The dot won't adjust properly. It seems perfect until you try shooting from a light room into a dark one.

 

[Peakbagger46]

I caution people against automatic adjustments for law enforcement particularly because of the possibility of shooting from a dark place into a light one and vice versa. The dot won't adjust properly. It seems perfect until you try shooting from a light room into a dark one.

I’ve tried both standing in light area and aiming at dark ones / standing in darker area and aiming into daylight. Both work fine with the RMR.

What’s the alternative anyhow, messing with very tiny adjustments on a small optic during an “incident”? RDS isn’t working, better revert to both point shooting and the suppressor height irons.

 

[Boom Vang]

The RDS is greatest thing to hit police administrators since abandoning the 50 yard line! Everyone "qualifies", with less of that expensive training time and ammo.

I write as the now-retired head of field firearms training at a very large agency. Qualification is not about competency, it's about agency liability. If it was about competency, you wouldn't have 1000+ different LE qualification courses in the United States, because there would be general agreement on what the core skills are.

When you shoot the same exact marksmanship course every qualification cycle, on the same target, at the same known distances, there ain't no surprises. Those that can shoot - do, and those that can't shoot - struggle. So when you put an RDS on the pistol... all those marginal and failing recruits and officers scores go ZOOM to the moon!

The results on the street are quite the opposite.

For the typical once or twice a year re-qualifying officer, the skills sets are just not there for finding that dot in under 2 seconds, under stress, while moving, at close range, with an offender also moving to try and kill you. The same marginal and poor shooters, give the same marginal and poor shooting performances with an RDS or irons sights. But hey, they qualified. What the difference is, they THINK they are compentent, but they are NOT. They - and their fellow officers and the public - are being done a dis-service.

Don't believe me? Look at all the body cam vids of mag dumps at bad breath distance, with no sight picture, and 5-15% hits. Agencies that went to the RDS as the new fad are finding that is a failure on the street for the majority of average officers. I watch these body cams and think maybe we are better off going back to the revolver, when disciplined fire and accuracy actually mattered.

I hate to sound like an old hair bag, but back in the day more emphasis was placed on firearms skills. In 1986 at the Academy, qualification started at 60 yards, and you ran to the 50 yard line and fired 12 rounds - including prone and weak-hand barricade. And then ran to the 25 yard line for another 18 rounds, including 6 weak-hand barricade. And so on. After plenty of ammo and training, if you didn't make it on qual day, you left. That doesn't happen anymore, and the results are apparent.

I've been using RDS on handguns for over 30 years. Yup, the RDS makes target shooting accuracy better/easier with a handgun. No question about that. But conflating combat with target shooting is the problem, and the typical officer is not a target shooter.

I would not consider and RDS for a defensive pistol unless my engagements are all 25+ yards. LE work is not military ops.... it's a close-range hands-on distance confrontation that you must resolve in under 2 seconds of get injured/killed. I can quote many studies but 90+% of LE shootings are inside 30 feet. I'll argue that the RDS is a HANDICAP at those distances for the typically trained LE officer, and probably the expert as well. You can index a front sight immediately upon drawing and presentation, with no special techniques, and unaffected by weather, grime, batteries, dust bunnies.

And I haven't even begun to address reliability.

Flame on peeps!

 

[trackskippy]

I would think that those who dont practice realistically and diligently on a regular basis arent doing well with irons or dots. You get out of both what you put in.

As to the mag dumps at close range....has anything changed? I remember the very same thing all along, not just since red dots and body cams came about. Now, we just get to see more of things as they happen, instead of the after the fact counting of all the brass on the ground and the bullets hitting everywhere but the target.

And revolver performance was usually in the 20%-25% range when they were carried, was it not?

At close range, the red dots are no different than the irons, unless you're so conditioned to actually try and use them in every instance. I shoot both all the time, and I don't see any difference "up close" 5-7 yards in, as Im not using either. But then again, I practice shooting like that every time out.

If you arent training your people to shoot in as many different ways as possible and requiring them to shoot all the time, its not going to matter what they have on the gun or what gun they use for that matter. Most of what Ive seen the military and police turn out shooter wise, has never been very impressive.

What Ive been noticing here too when these threads come up is, the people willing to continue to learn and move forward, don't seem to have a problem with the newer tech, where those who think they have it all figured out, and have stagnated and are stuck where they might have been at their peak, do.

If you arent willing to continue to learn and keep moving forward, you get to stay where you are and bitch.

 

[Shodan]

I'm not a fan. I find the fastest self defense type shooting is by keeping eyes on the target & just shoot. For shots that need sighted, a large open blade w tritiums would be my preferance.

You've perfectly described being target focused, the correct way to use a dot sight.

 

[Pudge]

The only reason to use them is if they help, and if they help, I would (do) use them.

 

[Bcwitt]

You've perfectly described being target focused, the correct way to use a dot sight.

I can shoot just fine as described without it. I just do not see what it does.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I wanna say "no," but as my avatar indicates I finally gave in to red dots with my old, bifocal needing eyes. I'm at that point where some days I can see the front sight fine, and others I can't. Don't have that problem with the red dot.

It does take a bit of getting used to, though.

 

[jmorris]

I can shoot just fine as described without it. I just do not see what it does.

That's a good sign.

Our eyes don't have an unlimited focal length, so as the distance to objects change our focus on them does too.

Will get worse with age as well.

Red dot sights solve the issue, providing a focused aim point as well as intended target. It would be clearer if this photo was actually in focus on the target/dot vs the backer but you get the picture...

 

[trackskippy]

I can shoot just fine as described without it. I just do not see what it does.

What it does is gives you a 24/7 sight that isn't hindered by low light or a dark background where you often lose your sights. You don't have to worry if your alignment isn't just right. And as has been mentioned, the older you get and/or worse your eyes are, you don't need correction to be able to shoot well.

I shoot fine with both, but the more I shoot with the dots, the easier and more natural they become, and I do see the more positive side to them, just like I did with my long guns when I first switched over to them.

Whats taken me so long to jump on the handgun bandwagon with them has been the cost and still-evolving tech. I knew once I got started, I was going to be on it, and I have been, and my wallet just wouldn't be able to keep up to fill my needs, and with the changing tech. And it really still isnt, but like the rifle sights 20 years ago, Im dealing with it.

Just in the 8 months or so now Ive been shooting with them, Ive already seen another change in tech, the Holosun SCS versions, where now, they are smaller, and small enough to go on the gun and you can still use the factory sights, and the battery is now fully self-charging and not something you have to deal with. I don't doubt soon, you're going to see them even smaller and and standard issue on pretty much everything.

I think too, once the "gap" in shooters has been broken, the resistance to them is going to be less and less. Those who arent willing to move forward with them, wont, and that's fine, if it works for them, but the generations of younger people, many of whom have been brought up using them in the "games", are willingly going to accept them and not know there's a problem.

Its really no different than what went on with the rifle sights, and we all know where things are now with them.

 

[JERRY]

I was forced into the RDS thing several years ago when my agency adopted them (along with stepping back from .40 to 9mm).

They can be nice but have a big training curve, particularly in acquiring the dot on the draw, even if you’re damn proficient at practical handgun fighting.

Sounds like you are in an agency where you have to buy your own gear. In your shoes I probably would stick with irons.

If you can’t help yourself and just have to have one, automatic brightness adjustment is a must for what we do in various lighting conditions. Don’t dick around with lower cost options and just go Trijicon RMR.

Then enjoy thousands of draws and dry fire to find that damn dot quickly.

Yes, finding the red dot from the draw will be the learning curve.

 

[Bcwitt]

OK, but most SD type shooting, none of the sights are very useful. You save time by not lifting up to where you can even see the sights. Just eye the target & shoot as soon as you clear the holster. @ any reasonable distance (15 yd or so) is plenty accurate. I cover my face when I practice this, as there is quite a bit more blast in this position.

 

[jmorris]

OK, but most SD type shooting, none of the sights are very useful. You save time by not lifting up to where you can even see the sights. Just eye the target & shoot as soon as you clear the holster.

I enjoy hip and point shooting myself but most of the things I have killed, I aimed at.

I suggest some form of competitive shooting, the timer and scores generally highlight what gear is advantageous. Why red dots are generally in a different class and there is no "point shooting" classes that know of, except fast draw and that's point shooting at balloons with wax bullets, very close.

 

[trackskippy]

Yes, finding the red dot from the draw will be the learning curve.

Yes, finding the red dot from the draw will be the learning curve.

If you want to lessen that curve, bring the gun straight up out of the holster, into basically a high ready, so the window is in front of your face, before you push out. Think 90° vs 45° presentation.

Youll index the gun properly (squared and centered to the body, very much like Applegate showed in his point-shooting primer), and pick up the dot a lot quicker and you'll find, if the dot isn't on the target where you're looking, it will be very close.

And of course, you still have to put in the regular time in practice, just like you did, and still do, irons or not. Nothing is going to change there, either way.

OK, but most SD type shooting, none of the sights are very useful. You save time by not lifting up to where you can even see the sights. Just eye the target & shoot as soon as you clear the holster. @ any reasonable distance (15 yd or so) is plenty accurate. I cover my face when I practice this, as there is quite a bit more blast in this position.

There is no difference in how you shoot up close, irons or dot. Although, a lot of times, I still get the dot now when I am point shooting, simply because with most of my dot sights, its where Im normally looking over the gun when I point shoot (the SCS is a little different as its lower and more in line with the irons).

Even so, if the gun is still lower than "just over the top", I don't have any issues, nor do I consciously look for the dot, when shooting up close. My focus is still on the target and Im just shooting it.

I think a lot of this is how you're accustomed to shooting too. The only real difference with the dot is, you have a single aiming point that requires no alignment or focus when you want it. No "front sight focus", as its not necessary, and you're focus is on the target where it should be. Once you get used to letting your brain find the dot when it needs it, things will go a lot quicker and easier.

The only time I encounter any "blast" when shooting below line of sight, is when Im up tight against the target and shooting, and usually from a retention position. You get blowback off the target/backer when its at arms length or closer. Beyond that, I don't notice any increase in muzzle blast.

One other thing too as to what "point shooting" is, or at least what it is to me is, that solar plexus and higher, in tight or pushed out, one or two handed, qualifies as "point shooting". Anything below that is something different and generally more of an emergency, contact distance type thing, and done one handed.

Point shooting, or lack of conscious use of the sights shooting, is something everyone should have a good base in, so you can shoot that way without thought when you need to shoot that way. Same goes for moving while you're shooting, which the two basically go together as a whole. You arent going to be trying to use the sights as you're moving off line and shooting at the same time.

 

[trackskippy]

I enjoy hip and point shooting myself but most of the things I have killed, I aimed at.

I agree, but at the same time, anytime I was shooting things reactively, I don't remember "aiming" at the critter, but I must have been, as I hit it.

Point shooting is "aiming", just not with the same visual cues. Your brain is using cues and indexes it has stored from sight-focus shooting and takes care of things while you're focused on doing the shooting.

 

[Buzznrose]

I'm fairly old school on things; no I don't carry a model 10 with a drop pouch. However I am one of the few people that carry a backup gun in uniform in my area. I'm a firm believer in 129 woven kevlar over hybrid polymer blends. I still have patrol boots instead of sneakers.... And I have concealable body armor instead of the over the shirt uniform vest carrier.

However today at range qualifications blah blah blah there was extra time so I took a look at the red dot on one of the swat guy's pistol. I took a few shots. I took a few more.... I'm sold.

I was never resistant to the idea I just didn't think it made much difference. And well it doesn't make much difference but it does make some difference, particularly at distance. I'm now saving up my pennies for a red dot for my duty and gun.

Has anyone else been converted recently? Did you change because it was the "in thing" to do, or because it actually helped you, or you just thought you'd give it a try and you liked it better?

I have embraced them. At 60 years old, they are so much better than fuzzy irons. I love the clear sight picture.

Lots of options. For duty use, I’d look hard at Trijicon but Holosun is a viable option too. Sig optics have a fairly high fail rate from what I see.

I use lots of Swamp Fox red dots and carry them, and have had great results, but I won’t say they are “duty grade” per se. YMMV

There is a bit of a learning curve. Dry fire draws help a LOT. Here is the ultimate solution to fast…draw and look for your front sight like you always have done…if properly set, the red dot will be there. Do not draw and hunt for the dot as you begin…this is why many folks fail to find the dot!

 

[WestKentucky]

I had an itch to do some competition type shooting a while back. Totally informal, and not competitively, just similar to how competitive matches have people shoot. So I put a dot on top of an old raggedy model 10-6 and it was really really nice. I never finished doing that one right, but I still plan to. The gun fits me well and with gutter sight I was shooting roughly 3” at 25 yards, but it was slow. With the dot I could shoot the 3” at 25 much faster or I could get tighter groups at any range. Either way that’s a win.