To those who dis the 9mm
- Thread starter Just One Shot
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The military probably uses the 9mm for the same reasons that they use the .223, it's inexpensive, an infantry man can carry more rounds at the same weight of a larger round and it is leathal more often than not. I would prefer .308 and .45 as the calibers used buy our fighting men.
The military veiws a handgun as a last ditch weapon any how.
The military veiws a handgun as a last ditch weapon any how.
BlindJustice
Member
This contract doesn't support the 9mm Luger, it simply is the
reality of not screwing around with the logistics of supplying handgun
ammo during a time of conflict.
Randall
reality of not screwing around with the logistics of supplying handgun
ammo during a time of conflict.
Randall
InRemorse Archive
I find the 9mm weak given that it operates at twice the pressure that of the .38 Special. Corbon makes a .38 Special in 110 gr +p at 382 ft/lbs out of a 4" barrel. That is the same as a 9mm out of a 4" barrel. Why isn't the 9mm twice as powerful? What gives? Having tried a snubby and a compact semi-auto I like the 9mm more because of the slimmer profile in a single stack and the ability for quick reloads. My 9mm is more accurate too. Sold the snubby.
I find the 9mm weak given that it operates at twice the pressure that of the .38 Special. Corbon makes a .38 Special in 110 gr +p at 382 ft/lbs out of a 4" barrel. That is the same as a 9mm out of a 4" barrel. Why isn't the 9mm twice as powerful? What gives? Having tried a snubby and a compact semi-auto I like the 9mm more because of the slimmer profile in a single stack and the ability for quick reloads. My 9mm is more accurate too. Sold the snubby.
9mm/M9
Ok, looks like its the "Big Debate" all over..again <chuckles>
Let me start by saying I am a .45 fan and dont think there is a better all around SD round on the market.
That said, IMHO the M9 is a fine pistol, large? yes..when compared to other
9mm pistols. But this is fine I think, our soldiers really arent worried about concealability, and the extra mass can only help the pistols durability. as for the design...well, considering most of our GIs are NOT well versed in the fine art of pistol combat, most of them probably havent shot anything more than "uncle Toms blackhawk". The M9 is easier to use than the 1911, for a beginner.
As far as the cartridge itself...well, yes there are certainly better choices to be had, but theres worse as well, and until some genius comes up with a round that penetrates, expands and instantly incapacitates the Bad Guy EVERY SINGLE TIME, in all conditions..we are stuck with fast and light, slow and heavy, or something in between..
All in all , do I think its better? No...but it could be worse, hell, if the Gov't was going for the cheapest, I think jennings/bryco would have got a contract. Im pretty sure my son could make one of those out in the garage, given a lead pipe some duct tape and a couple tin cans..
Ok, looks like its the "Big Debate" all over..again <chuckles>
Let me start by saying I am a .45 fan and dont think there is a better all around SD round on the market.
That said, IMHO the M9 is a fine pistol, large? yes..when compared to other
9mm pistols. But this is fine I think, our soldiers really arent worried about concealability, and the extra mass can only help the pistols durability. as for the design...well, considering most of our GIs are NOT well versed in the fine art of pistol combat, most of them probably havent shot anything more than "uncle Toms blackhawk". The M9 is easier to use than the 1911, for a beginner.
As far as the cartridge itself...well, yes there are certainly better choices to be had, but theres worse as well, and until some genius comes up with a round that penetrates, expands and instantly incapacitates the Bad Guy EVERY SINGLE TIME, in all conditions..we are stuck with fast and light, slow and heavy, or something in between..
All in all , do I think its better? No...but it could be worse, hell, if the Gov't was going for the cheapest, I think jennings/bryco would have got a contract. Im pretty sure my son could make one of those out in the garage, given a lead pipe some duct tape and a couple tin cans..
Confederate
Member
Look, in my view there's not a hell of a lot of difference between 9mm ball ammo and .45 ACP ball ammo. Ball ammo of any kind is horrible and ineffective. Our military forces the troops to use this crap and, really, this is more of an issue than the caliber.
The .45 doesn't penetrate worth spit! The 9mm does. So if you're shooting at some bad guy and the bad guy has a lot of clothing or padding, you're going to want something to punch through it.
A 9mm JHP and a .45 ACP JHP are much more difficult to size up, but again, ball ammo is ball ammo and none of it works. Most of the guys I talk to prefer the firepower of the 9mm. Arguing stopping power with this stuff just doesn't get anywhere.
The .45 doesn't penetrate worth spit! The 9mm does. So if you're shooting at some bad guy and the bad guy has a lot of clothing or padding, you're going to want something to punch through it.
A 9mm JHP and a .45 ACP JHP are much more difficult to size up, but again, ball ammo is ball ammo and none of it works. Most of the guys I talk to prefer the firepower of the 9mm. Arguing stopping power with this stuff just doesn't get anywhere.
Don't believe it. Anyone wearing sufficient clothing or padding to keep a 230 grain .45 ACP ball bullet from penetrating into their body wouldn't be able to move because of the bulk.
Text in parenthesis added by me.
Read the entire article/report here:
Link: http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm
Confederate
Member
Yes, I've heard all that before.
I don't buy, and have never bought into this myth, that handguns are inadequate, puny little things that are only good until you get a "real" gun in your hands. Tell that to virtually anyone who's been on the wrong end of a .357 mag 125-gr. JHP (even from a snubby). Massad Ayoob put this myth to rest years ago. Likewise, JHPs from .38s, 9mms, .40 and other calibers work far more times than they don't. I don't even sneeze at a .25 ACP pistol, because I read of cases all the time where they kill people in defensive shootings.
Firepower, too, should not be underestimated. I don't know many people who could walk through a shower of .22LRs shot from any Ruger automatic. So fast and furious are these rounds that I wouldn't feel at all ill prepared in a dark house, or even in an alley.
I have a friend who, during the second world war, was coming into the Philippines just days after MacArthur waded ashore. Not really mindful of what was going on, he suddenly was jolted by a nearby blood curtling scream. He looked up to see an enraged Moro racing at him, machete held high and ready to strike. Fumbling for his .45 auto he aimed squarely dead center to the guy's chest and fired. Before he could fire a second shot, the man was on him and the fight ended only when my friend used the muzzle of the Colt to clobber the Moro over the head. "Even after that," my friend said, "the guy still lived." It just missed his heart, yet had no immediate effect. The Moro was still trying to get a lick in. From then on my friend had nothing good to say about the .45 auto....
...and he was WRONG.
Had he used a modern hollowpoint (185 gr. JHP), I believe he would have knocked the guy right out of the fight and into eternity. Not because the .45 would have expanded. It probably wouldn't have...much...but, the shape of the bullet is just different enough to make a difference.
I would never "dis" a good handgun or its cartridge, but in Iraq I would go for the 9mm and take up prayer rather than go with a .45 loaded with ball ammo.
I don't buy, and have never bought into this myth, that handguns are inadequate, puny little things that are only good until you get a "real" gun in your hands. Tell that to virtually anyone who's been on the wrong end of a .357 mag 125-gr. JHP (even from a snubby). Massad Ayoob put this myth to rest years ago. Likewise, JHPs from .38s, 9mms, .40 and other calibers work far more times than they don't. I don't even sneeze at a .25 ACP pistol, because I read of cases all the time where they kill people in defensive shootings.
Firepower, too, should not be underestimated. I don't know many people who could walk through a shower of .22LRs shot from any Ruger automatic. So fast and furious are these rounds that I wouldn't feel at all ill prepared in a dark house, or even in an alley.
I have a friend who, during the second world war, was coming into the Philippines just days after MacArthur waded ashore. Not really mindful of what was going on, he suddenly was jolted by a nearby blood curtling scream. He looked up to see an enraged Moro racing at him, machete held high and ready to strike. Fumbling for his .45 auto he aimed squarely dead center to the guy's chest and fired. Before he could fire a second shot, the man was on him and the fight ended only when my friend used the muzzle of the Colt to clobber the Moro over the head. "Even after that," my friend said, "the guy still lived." It just missed his heart, yet had no immediate effect. The Moro was still trying to get a lick in. From then on my friend had nothing good to say about the .45 auto....
...and he was WRONG.
Had he used a modern hollowpoint (185 gr. JHP), I believe he would have knocked the guy right out of the fight and into eternity. Not because the .45 would have expanded. It probably wouldn't have...much...but, the shape of the bullet is just different enough to make a difference.
I would never "dis" a good handgun or its cartridge, but in Iraq I would go for the 9mm and take up prayer rather than go with a .45 loaded with ball ammo.
Beretta better than a 1911
I have owned nine 1911 pistols and have shot and seen shot other 1911 pistols. NONE OF THEM WAS AS RELIABLE AS THE BERETTA 92. NOT ONE!
At the time it was introduced, the 1911 set a standard, but that day has passed. I would put a SIG 226, GLOCK 17 or 19 and BERETTA 92 against a 1911 for reliability any day.
Almost every 1911 made before 1980 needed a trip to the gunsmith to feed hollow point ammo reliablely and to add good sights.
In the accuracy department, the average military issue 1911 might beat a GLOCK, but maybe not. It would not come anywhere near the level of the BERETTA or SIG. I found that out from experience with all the above guns.
The reported problems with the BERETTA in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN are the result of second rate magazines. I mail ordered some and they went into my 92 with some difficulty, but were nearly impossible to remove.
You can forget dropping an empty during a speed reload. It took one hand clutching the slide and fingertips of the other hand prying the basepad to dislodge this junk!
Stick with BERETTA made or MECGAR and you will not have any problems.
As for the 9m.m., I carry it all the time when I am off duty. I have complete faith in a +P hollow point. If I was carrying fmj, I would not feel as secure.
If I was carrying a .45ACP loaded with fmj, I still would not feel secure. .45ACP ball is vastly overrated. It is better than 9m.m. ball, but not equal to a 9m.m. with a decent hollow point.
Also, from what I have read lately. The military is going to issue the BERETTA with the expanding full metal jacket ammo that FEDERAL is developing. Sounds better than a semi-reliable 1911 with ball to me.
Jim
I have owned nine 1911 pistols and have shot and seen shot other 1911 pistols. NONE OF THEM WAS AS RELIABLE AS THE BERETTA 92. NOT ONE!
At the time it was introduced, the 1911 set a standard, but that day has passed. I would put a SIG 226, GLOCK 17 or 19 and BERETTA 92 against a 1911 for reliability any day.
Almost every 1911 made before 1980 needed a trip to the gunsmith to feed hollow point ammo reliablely and to add good sights.
In the accuracy department, the average military issue 1911 might beat a GLOCK, but maybe not. It would not come anywhere near the level of the BERETTA or SIG. I found that out from experience with all the above guns.
The reported problems with the BERETTA in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN are the result of second rate magazines. I mail ordered some and they went into my 92 with some difficulty, but were nearly impossible to remove.
You can forget dropping an empty during a speed reload. It took one hand clutching the slide and fingertips of the other hand prying the basepad to dislodge this junk!
Stick with BERETTA made or MECGAR and you will not have any problems.
As for the 9m.m., I carry it all the time when I am off duty. I have complete faith in a +P hollow point. If I was carrying fmj, I would not feel as secure.
If I was carrying a .45ACP loaded with fmj, I still would not feel secure. .45ACP ball is vastly overrated. It is better than 9m.m. ball, but not equal to a 9m.m. with a decent hollow point.
Also, from what I have read lately. The military is going to issue the BERETTA with the expanding full metal jacket ammo that FEDERAL is developing. Sounds better than a semi-reliable 1911 with ball to me.
Jim
I addressed the ridiculous idea that the .45ACP 230 grain ball bullet wouldn't "penetrate worth spit". The link I gave proved otherwise. So has my own experience with the cartridge over more than half a century.
Moros traditionally practiced "Juramentado" whereby limbs were bound to keep blood from flowing into wounded areas of the body and drugs were taken that whipped them into a murderous frenzy. Our answer was the .45 which the Army found to be effective. The Japanese answer was to kill not only the warrior but his entire family. Under Japanese rule, the practice came to a screeching halt. I'm surprised that your friend ran into a Moro still willing to use Juramentado. Maybe he had no living family to protect.... not that the US troops would have harmed them.
Moros traditionally practiced "Juramentado" whereby limbs were bound to keep blood from flowing into wounded areas of the body and drugs were taken that whipped them into a murderous frenzy. Our answer was the .45 which the Army found to be effective. The Japanese answer was to kill not only the warrior but his entire family. Under Japanese rule, the practice came to a screeching halt. I'm surprised that your friend ran into a Moro still willing to use Juramentado. Maybe he had no living family to protect.... not that the US troops would have harmed them.
golden said:
"At the time it was introduced, the 1911 set a standard, but that day has passed."
Then why does the platform own virtually all high level shooting comps and why do the highest level combat shooters such such as LAPD SWAT, USSOCOM, USMC Det-1, USMC MEUSOC, FBI HRT, FBI SWAT, Delta, and many many others choose the 1911 as their gun of choice? 'Cause they don't know anything about guns? The 1911 is still the king of combat handguns, but it's not for everyone, and no one claims it is.
As Hilton Yam says " The 1911 is an aficionado's weapon, and still has a place in the modern arsenal for those who are dedicated to it. With proper setup and maintenance, the 1911 can serve you like no other weapon."
http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html
The 1911 takes additional training, knowledge, and upkeep, but in the hands of the trained shooter, it has no equal. Or as Hilton puts it
"A tuned 1911 is a high performance machine capable of allowing the skilled user to reach his maximum performance potential. It has unequalled ergonomics, is easy to customize for each user, and is capable of excellent reliability. "
The original military test for the 1911 required 6000 rounds to be fired without malfunction. I would call that reliable.
Glocks, Sigs, etc are fine guns for their intended use, and for general personnel, are the guns of choice. Or to quote Yam again:
"For a dedicated and knowledgeable end user, the 1911 has no equal. For non-dedicated personnel, they are better served by a modern, low maintenance weapon such as a Glock, SIG, or HK. "
http://www.10-8performance.com/id9.html
I agree with his comments there too, and you don't know what you think you know about 1911s it appears...
"At the time it was introduced, the 1911 set a standard, but that day has passed."
Then why does the platform own virtually all high level shooting comps and why do the highest level combat shooters such such as LAPD SWAT, USSOCOM, USMC Det-1, USMC MEUSOC, FBI HRT, FBI SWAT, Delta, and many many others choose the 1911 as their gun of choice? 'Cause they don't know anything about guns? The 1911 is still the king of combat handguns, but it's not for everyone, and no one claims it is.
As Hilton Yam says " The 1911 is an aficionado's weapon, and still has a place in the modern arsenal for those who are dedicated to it. With proper setup and maintenance, the 1911 can serve you like no other weapon."
http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html
The 1911 takes additional training, knowledge, and upkeep, but in the hands of the trained shooter, it has no equal. Or as Hilton puts it
"A tuned 1911 is a high performance machine capable of allowing the skilled user to reach his maximum performance potential. It has unequalled ergonomics, is easy to customize for each user, and is capable of excellent reliability. "
The original military test for the 1911 required 6000 rounds to be fired without malfunction. I would call that reliable.
Glocks, Sigs, etc are fine guns for their intended use, and for general personnel, are the guns of choice. Or to quote Yam again:
"For a dedicated and knowledgeable end user, the 1911 has no equal. For non-dedicated personnel, they are better served by a modern, low maintenance weapon such as a Glock, SIG, or HK. "
http://www.10-8performance.com/id9.html
I agree with his comments there too, and you don't know what you think you know about 1911s it appears...
007BondJamesBond007
Member
From: 1911: The classic
homeland security pistol
By Massad Ayoob
Countless tales of up close and personal pistol fighting emerged from WWI. The bottom line was that when Americans shot Germans with Colt .45 automatics, the Germans tended to fall down and die. When Germans shot Americans with their 9mm Luger pistols, the Americans tended to become indignant and kill the German who shot them, and then walk to an aid station to either die a lingering death or recover completely. Thus was born the reputation of the .45 automatic as a “legendary manstopper,” and the long-standing American conviction that the 9mm automatic was an impotent wimp thing that would make your wife a widow if you trusted your life to it.
Full text
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html
homeland security pistol
By Massad Ayoob
Countless tales of up close and personal pistol fighting emerged from WWI. The bottom line was that when Americans shot Germans with Colt .45 automatics, the Germans tended to fall down and die. When Germans shot Americans with their 9mm Luger pistols, the Americans tended to become indignant and kill the German who shot them, and then walk to an aid station to either die a lingering death or recover completely. Thus was born the reputation of the .45 automatic as a “legendary manstopper,” and the long-standing American conviction that the 9mm automatic was an impotent wimp thing that would make your wife a widow if you trusted your life to it.
Full text
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html
Vonderek
Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2006
- Messages
- 1,537
Hate to beat a dead horse but here's an oldie but goodie against a steel helmet (I do agree with your statement about clothing but 45 ball is a less than inspiring penetrator):
http://www.realmilitaryflix.com/public/401.cfm?sd=60
However, excluding ball ammo, I feel equally safe with 9mm Gold Dots or CorBon and .45 with 230gr Hyrdrashoks
SaMx
Member
I doubt a 9mm fmj would have made it through that helmet either, or any pistol round. They have less velocity, less momentum, and more frontal area, compared to a rifle.
confederate, I'm going to have to disagree with you on pistols vs. rifles. Lots of people here hunt, and I'm sure lots could tell stories of shooting deer with a pretty powerful rifle such as a .30-06, and having it sprint almost 100 yards before it fell over dead. To expect a much less powerful handgun, even with good expanding ammo, to instantly drop a person who weighs about as much, or even more, than that deer is unrealistic.
confederate, I'm going to have to disagree with you on pistols vs. rifles. Lots of people here hunt, and I'm sure lots could tell stories of shooting deer with a pretty powerful rifle such as a .30-06, and having it sprint almost 100 yards before it fell over dead. To expect a much less powerful handgun, even with good expanding ammo, to instantly drop a person who weighs about as much, or even more, than that deer is unrealistic.
Your link is interesting and reminds me of the training films I watched when I went into the military. Most were from WW2. However, a steel helmet isn't thick or padded clothing. Nor do I think anyone wants their head inside of a steel helmet when it's struck by a .45ACP bullet. It may not penetrate the helmet but it would otherwise ruin your day IMO. (FWIW, I've shot a WW1 German helmet at close range with a 9mm and it takes a straight-on hit to penetrate. Any angle to the shot will likely open a small hole in the steel but the bullet will glance off.)
26 inches of penetration in ballistic gelletin and 6 inches of white pine is not bad at all. If the .45 bullet stops inside of a person's body, ALL of it's energy is expended in that body. A 9mm passing through will not impart all of it's energy to the target which lowers it's effectiveness.
There is no question that a properly constructed 9mm HP or softpoint bullet is far more effective than hard ball but the military is restricted to hard ball and in that light the .45ACP is simply more effective.
During the First Gulf War there were numerous reports coming out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq that the fine grit and sand that found it's way into the M9 magazines effectively jammed the pistols. It seems that the rounds in the magazines, being double stacked, roll as they rise and the sand prevented them from rolling. The Marines went so far as to officially request re-issue of the 1911A1 pistols. They didn't jam. This information was published in either G&A or ST magazine shortly after the war was over.
26 inches of penetration in ballistic gelletin and 6 inches of white pine is not bad at all. If the .45 bullet stops inside of a person's body, ALL of it's energy is expended in that body. A 9mm passing through will not impart all of it's energy to the target which lowers it's effectiveness.
There is no question that a properly constructed 9mm HP or softpoint bullet is far more effective than hard ball but the military is restricted to hard ball and in that light the .45ACP is simply more effective.
During the First Gulf War there were numerous reports coming out of Saudi Arabia and Iraq that the fine grit and sand that found it's way into the M9 magazines effectively jammed the pistols. It seems that the rounds in the magazines, being double stacked, roll as they rise and the sand prevented them from rolling. The Marines went so far as to officially request re-issue of the 1911A1 pistols. They didn't jam. This information was published in either G&A or ST magazine shortly after the war was over.
Last edited:
Baron Holbach4
Member
There must be something wrong with the M9. After all, it was awarded the 1985 contract during the Reagan era.
I cant wait to qualify on the M9 and finally get issued one. Hopefully the M9 will be around for many more years (or at least until im out).
BTW: if your using your pistol in combat your probably already screwed, 9mm or not. Read my sig line, LOL.
BTW: if your using your pistol in combat your probably already screwed, 9mm or not. Read my sig line, LOL.
mljdeckard
Member
Confederate- all your anecdote shows is that NO pistol round is sufficient for self-defense. We use them in emergencies only because we are caught without something bigger. I sneeze at the .25 quite frequently. MANY people have walked away from multiple hits of .357.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say .45 hardball lacks penetration power. It will typically exit a human-sized target. How much penetration power do you think it should have?
Golden, If Berettas are so magnificent, why did you own nine of them? And if you think a military issue Beretta with premium Federal ammo would be better than a 1911 with ball, why do you skip over the idea of a 1911 loaded with premium Federal ammo? (HSTs, for example.)
I was an armorer when we switched from 1911A1s to Berettas. I could recondition a 1911 with a new link, barrel, and bushing, and it was fantastic. When we got the Berettas, soldiers were tinkering with them and screwing them up. (I had one 11C platoon sergeant who took the grip panels off, took out the springs, replaced them backwards, and wondered why the gun wouldn't work. Of 87 that were issued NEW IN PLASTIC, I had to return 16 of them for higher-level maintenence.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say .45 hardball lacks penetration power. It will typically exit a human-sized target. How much penetration power do you think it should have?
Golden, If Berettas are so magnificent, why did you own nine of them? And if you think a military issue Beretta with premium Federal ammo would be better than a 1911 with ball, why do you skip over the idea of a 1911 loaded with premium Federal ammo? (HSTs, for example.)
I was an armorer when we switched from 1911A1s to Berettas. I could recondition a 1911 with a new link, barrel, and bushing, and it was fantastic. When we got the Berettas, soldiers were tinkering with them and screwing them up. (I had one 11C platoon sergeant who took the grip panels off, took out the springs, replaced them backwards, and wondered why the gun wouldn't work. Of 87 that were issued NEW IN PLASTIC, I had to return 16 of them for higher-level maintenence.
Dan Crocker
Member
9mm, .45acp, I'd rather not be shot with either. I don't know why everyone feels like this point needs to be argued until the other side drops dead and you can compare your cartridge the ultimate champion.
Your confused
mljdeckard,
I think your a little confused. I have not owned 9 BERETTA 92's, I have owned 9 model 1911's!
I would like to buy a BERETTA 92 ELITE, but am not in a rush.
I also think that a 9m.m. EXPANDING FULL METAL JACKET ROUND that the military WILL adopt beats a .45ACP NON EXPANDING BALL round that the soldiers would get stuck with if we go back to the .45ACP.
I have not read or heard of anyone talking about the military buying the HST round in any caliber. If you have, let me know. It would be a huge improvement that I do not see happening with OBAMA in office.
I switched to the BERETTA 96D Brigadier when my agency adopted it. I found it to be much more accurate than the GLOCK 17 I was then carrying on duty and the GLOCK 19 I carried off duty.
The superior reliability of the BERETTA and GLOCK convinced me to retire my 1911 as my home defense gun. There was no advantage over the BERETTA in firepower, acccuracy, sights (my BERETTA came with tritium nite sights or stopping power.
My personal choice for home defense was the .45ACP 230 grain HYDRO SHOK round. This has proven to be as effective a round as you can find. Switching to GLOCK 19 using 9m.m. +P+ gave me virtually the same stopping power in a smaller, lighter (carry a steel 1911 on your hip for 16 hours and tell me that weight is not important), easier to control gun with twice the ammunition capacticy.
With the BERETTA 92, I gain accuracy at the cost of greater weight and bulk. Fine for home, less so for use as a belt gun.
My agency was an early user of the .40S&W round using the 155 grain JHP at almost 1200 fps. I have not heard of any complaints about failure to stop incidents rom the field and the accuracy was superb.
When my agency adopted the .40S&W, they tested quite a few guns. Only the BERETTA 96D Brigadier and SIG 229 survived. Both can shoot as well as the semi-custom 1911's for half the price.
WILLBRINK,
You stated that a trained user carrying a 1911 cannot be equaled. WHY? Why would a NAVY SEAL using a SIG 226 not be able to equal an FBI HRT member? The SEAL'S are not complaining. Neither are the British SAS or SBS.
WILL, you cannot compare a $1300.00 KIMBER or $2000.00 WILSON with a standard army issue 1911.
Most, if not all the groups you mentioned are carrying custom or semi-custion 1911's. Take a standard model to the range and see how well it works. I choose the 1911 as my personal defense pistol for 20 years and when I fould something better, I went with it.
Also, if you think that the 1911 is the greatest gun around, just consider issuing them to the average law enforcement agency and watch the accidental discharges and wrongful death lawsuits and MANSLAUGHTER INDICTMENTS begin.
The chiefs are right to fear acidental discharges. I have seen several by officers with no gun interest and 2 by firearms instructors who can shoot as well as the SWAT guys. These included revolvers and double action semi-autos. I am sold on the double action only/safe action guns.
My experience is that the best a 1911 can due is equal a BERETTA, SIG or GLOCK for reliability. Accuracy goes to the BERETTA and SIG unless you want to buy a BIG BUCK KIMBER or SPRINGFIELD armory.
The COLT NATIONAL MATCH model could provide excellent accuracy, but was a problem child with hollow point and the sights were really large and exposed. The COLT government model needed a ramp job as soon as you bought it and sights would be the next fix.
My opinions are based on what I have read, observed and personally experienced. Just for the record, I started out as a COOPERite worshiping the 1911 and the .45ACP round. Not so now.
Jim
mljdeckard,
I think your a little confused. I have not owned 9 BERETTA 92's, I have owned 9 model 1911's!
I would like to buy a BERETTA 92 ELITE, but am not in a rush.
I also think that a 9m.m. EXPANDING FULL METAL JACKET ROUND that the military WILL adopt beats a .45ACP NON EXPANDING BALL round that the soldiers would get stuck with if we go back to the .45ACP.
I have not read or heard of anyone talking about the military buying the HST round in any caliber. If you have, let me know. It would be a huge improvement that I do not see happening with OBAMA in office.
I switched to the BERETTA 96D Brigadier when my agency adopted it. I found it to be much more accurate than the GLOCK 17 I was then carrying on duty and the GLOCK 19 I carried off duty.
The superior reliability of the BERETTA and GLOCK convinced me to retire my 1911 as my home defense gun. There was no advantage over the BERETTA in firepower, acccuracy, sights (my BERETTA came with tritium nite sights or stopping power.
My personal choice for home defense was the .45ACP 230 grain HYDRO SHOK round. This has proven to be as effective a round as you can find. Switching to GLOCK 19 using 9m.m. +P+ gave me virtually the same stopping power in a smaller, lighter (carry a steel 1911 on your hip for 16 hours and tell me that weight is not important), easier to control gun with twice the ammunition capacticy.
With the BERETTA 92, I gain accuracy at the cost of greater weight and bulk. Fine for home, less so for use as a belt gun.
My agency was an early user of the .40S&W round using the 155 grain JHP at almost 1200 fps. I have not heard of any complaints about failure to stop incidents rom the field and the accuracy was superb.
When my agency adopted the .40S&W, they tested quite a few guns. Only the BERETTA 96D Brigadier and SIG 229 survived. Both can shoot as well as the semi-custom 1911's for half the price.
WILLBRINK,
You stated that a trained user carrying a 1911 cannot be equaled. WHY? Why would a NAVY SEAL using a SIG 226 not be able to equal an FBI HRT member? The SEAL'S are not complaining. Neither are the British SAS or SBS.
WILL, you cannot compare a $1300.00 KIMBER or $2000.00 WILSON with a standard army issue 1911.
Most, if not all the groups you mentioned are carrying custom or semi-custion 1911's. Take a standard model to the range and see how well it works. I choose the 1911 as my personal defense pistol for 20 years and when I fould something better, I went with it.
Also, if you think that the 1911 is the greatest gun around, just consider issuing them to the average law enforcement agency and watch the accidental discharges and wrongful death lawsuits and MANSLAUGHTER INDICTMENTS begin.
The chiefs are right to fear acidental discharges. I have seen several by officers with no gun interest and 2 by firearms instructors who can shoot as well as the SWAT guys. These included revolvers and double action semi-autos. I am sold on the double action only/safe action guns.
My experience is that the best a 1911 can due is equal a BERETTA, SIG or GLOCK for reliability. Accuracy goes to the BERETTA and SIG unless you want to buy a BIG BUCK KIMBER or SPRINGFIELD armory.
The COLT NATIONAL MATCH model could provide excellent accuracy, but was a problem child with hollow point and the sights were really large and exposed. The COLT government model needed a ramp job as soon as you bought it and sights would be the next fix.
My opinions are based on what I have read, observed and personally experienced. Just for the record, I started out as a COOPERite worshiping the 1911 and the .45ACP round. Not so now.
Jim
"You stated that a trained user carrying a 1911 cannot be equaled. WHY?"
Because Hilton Yam said so
" Why would a NAVY SEAL using a SIG 226 not be able to equal an FBI HRT member? The SEAL'S are not complaining. Neither are the British SAS or SBS."
And you know that how? The SEALs I know don't like the 9mm. SEALs don't use SIgs or 9mm due to choice. That's what they are given. The groups that are allowed to choose their own weapons, have opted for 1911 in .45 ACP. more often then not. The SEALs I know who have a CO who allow them to choose their own side arm, will usually bring a 1911, or a HK USP in .45 ACP.
"WILL, you cannot compare a $1300.00 KIMBER or $2000.00 WILSON with a standard army issue 1911."
I didn't. I made no mention of which 1911.
"Most, if not all the groups you mentioned are carrying custom or semi-custion 1911's. "
Yes they are, the guns they carry are superior to anything Glock/Sig, et al ever made. You never made any distinction about which 1911. Yes, they all tend to use the best 1911s they can get their hands on, as they know from experience is the best combat handgun on the planet.
"Take a standard model to the range and see how well it works."
I have shot a 1940's era 1911 that had 100,000rnds plus on it, and it still shot great. The original contract for the stock 1911, as written already above, was 6000 rnds without failure.
" I choose the 1911 as my personal defense pistol for 20 years and when I fould something better, I went with it."
Better FOR YOU is the correct statement.
"Also, if you think that the 1911 is the greatest gun around, just consider issuing them to the average law enforcement agency and watch the accidental discharges and wrongful death lawsuits and MANSLAUGHTER INDICTMENTS begin."
Which has zero to do with the gun and everything to do with the training of the users. I really suggest you read closer. I, also quoting Yam, was clear the 1911 is NOT for everyone, and many are better served by Glocks, HK, Sigs, etc. Read what I wrote again perhaps.
"The chiefs are right to fear acidental discharges. I have seen several by officers with no gun interest and 2 by firearms instructors who can shoot as well as the SWAT guys. These included revolvers and double action semi-autos. I am sold on the double action only/safe action guns."
Great, but that has zero bearing on the facts and reality as revealed to you in my prior post, and we agree: the 1911 is not for most PDs. As Yam said again:
"For non-dedicated personnel, they are better served by a modern, low maintenance weapon such as a Glock, SIG, or HK. "
And as I said, above, I agree with that assessment.
"My experience is that the best a 1911 can due is equal a BERETTA, SIG or GLOCK for reliability. Accuracy goes to the BERETTA and SIG unless you want to buy a BIG BUCK KIMBER or SPRINGFIELD armory."
Ah, so now you have added an additional condition to your position, which is they have to be "big buck" 1911s....
Because Hilton Yam said so
" Why would a NAVY SEAL using a SIG 226 not be able to equal an FBI HRT member? The SEAL'S are not complaining. Neither are the British SAS or SBS."
And you know that how? The SEALs I know don't like the 9mm. SEALs don't use SIgs or 9mm due to choice. That's what they are given. The groups that are allowed to choose their own weapons, have opted for 1911 in .45 ACP. more often then not. The SEALs I know who have a CO who allow them to choose their own side arm, will usually bring a 1911, or a HK USP in .45 ACP.
"WILL, you cannot compare a $1300.00 KIMBER or $2000.00 WILSON with a standard army issue 1911."
I didn't. I made no mention of which 1911.
"Most, if not all the groups you mentioned are carrying custom or semi-custion 1911's. "
Yes they are, the guns they carry are superior to anything Glock/Sig, et al ever made. You never made any distinction about which 1911. Yes, they all tend to use the best 1911s they can get their hands on, as they know from experience is the best combat handgun on the planet.
"Take a standard model to the range and see how well it works."
I have shot a 1940's era 1911 that had 100,000rnds plus on it, and it still shot great. The original contract for the stock 1911, as written already above, was 6000 rnds without failure.
" I choose the 1911 as my personal defense pistol for 20 years and when I fould something better, I went with it."
Better FOR YOU is the correct statement.
"Also, if you think that the 1911 is the greatest gun around, just consider issuing them to the average law enforcement agency and watch the accidental discharges and wrongful death lawsuits and MANSLAUGHTER INDICTMENTS begin."
Which has zero to do with the gun and everything to do with the training of the users. I really suggest you read closer. I, also quoting Yam, was clear the 1911 is NOT for everyone, and many are better served by Glocks, HK, Sigs, etc. Read what I wrote again perhaps.
"The chiefs are right to fear acidental discharges. I have seen several by officers with no gun interest and 2 by firearms instructors who can shoot as well as the SWAT guys. These included revolvers and double action semi-autos. I am sold on the double action only/safe action guns."
Great, but that has zero bearing on the facts and reality as revealed to you in my prior post, and we agree: the 1911 is not for most PDs. As Yam said again:
"For non-dedicated personnel, they are better served by a modern, low maintenance weapon such as a Glock, SIG, or HK. "
And as I said, above, I agree with that assessment.
"My experience is that the best a 1911 can due is equal a BERETTA, SIG or GLOCK for reliability. Accuracy goes to the BERETTA and SIG unless you want to buy a BIG BUCK KIMBER or SPRINGFIELD armory."
Ah, so now you have added an additional condition to your position, which is they have to be "big buck" 1911s....
Confederate
Member
There is merit to all of your comments. Each person must be comfortable with what he or she has to use in self defense situations. Bullet for bullet, yes, I'd rather have a .45ACP than a 9mm; however, taking into account the superior reliability of the Beretta and the firepower, like I said, the majority of the guys I've talked to will take the extra capacity.
In a foxhole, or close in shooting, a .45ACP does about as well as anything could be expected to do with ball ammo. A friend of mine who served in Korea told me that frequently Chinese soldiers would be found with .45 slugs embedded in the heavy padded coats they wore, while the mortal wounds were generally caused by machine gun fire. He said that .45s jammed all the time in the cold weather. All this proves, of course, is that .45s lose a lot of their punch over distance.
The Beretta was the first of the really ultra-reliable pistols of our day. During the initial trials, if memory serves, the Berettas tended to malfunction 1 in every 2,000 rounds on average. The runner up was the S&W 459, which jammed on an average of 1 every 952 times. Both scores were excellent, but subsequent designs showed similar improvements.
As for .25s, think what you want. They would never be one of my primary choices for a firearm, but with 9 rapid fire shots, there's a good chance you can complicate any bad guy's day. If he's got a knife and you have the gun, you've got the "edge" unless the guy's absolutely determined to end your life. And for defense, the .357 125-gr JHP I believe is the ultimate handgun round for stopping humans. Once it goes up or down in bullet weight, it's another matter. Heavier slugs over penetrate; lighter ones under-penetrate.
The issue we're discussing has been debated many times before and by people both pro and con. People who have successfully used a firearm tend to gain respect for it while those who have seen a given firearm or caliber fail tend to lose respect. I never cease to be amazed at how often the lowly .25 has been used not only to stop a bad guy, but kill him. There may be those who walk away from encounters, but they're the lucky ones. There are enough people who have been shot once with those things that end up either dead or on a hospital bed, with tubes down their throats and fighting for their lives.
I won't ever dis a handgun, especially in the hands of one who knows how to use it. And I'm convinced that anyone who gets a solid hit from a .357 125gr JHP isn't going anywhere but down. Animals in the wild really have little bearing on the debate. People are relatively puny creatures with no natural means of self defense or defense from the elements. Of all the primates, we have the lowest muscle density and possibly the lowest threshold to pain. With modern JHPs and bullet configurations, not to mention new weapons designs, ball ammo will always be at the bottom of the list, regardless of caliber.
If it were up to me, I'd throw out that part of the Geneva Convention, arm our troops with 9mm +P JHPs and save American lives. But even barring that, for the .45 lovers, there's no reason a hi-cap .45 ACP can't be developed, even if the magazine extends below the grip.
In a foxhole, or close in shooting, a .45ACP does about as well as anything could be expected to do with ball ammo. A friend of mine who served in Korea told me that frequently Chinese soldiers would be found with .45 slugs embedded in the heavy padded coats they wore, while the mortal wounds were generally caused by machine gun fire. He said that .45s jammed all the time in the cold weather. All this proves, of course, is that .45s lose a lot of their punch over distance.
The Beretta was the first of the really ultra-reliable pistols of our day. During the initial trials, if memory serves, the Berettas tended to malfunction 1 in every 2,000 rounds on average. The runner up was the S&W 459, which jammed on an average of 1 every 952 times. Both scores were excellent, but subsequent designs showed similar improvements.
As for .25s, think what you want. They would never be one of my primary choices for a firearm, but with 9 rapid fire shots, there's a good chance you can complicate any bad guy's day. If he's got a knife and you have the gun, you've got the "edge" unless the guy's absolutely determined to end your life. And for defense, the .357 125-gr JHP I believe is the ultimate handgun round for stopping humans. Once it goes up or down in bullet weight, it's another matter. Heavier slugs over penetrate; lighter ones under-penetrate.
The issue we're discussing has been debated many times before and by people both pro and con. People who have successfully used a firearm tend to gain respect for it while those who have seen a given firearm or caliber fail tend to lose respect. I never cease to be amazed at how often the lowly .25 has been used not only to stop a bad guy, but kill him. There may be those who walk away from encounters, but they're the lucky ones. There are enough people who have been shot once with those things that end up either dead or on a hospital bed, with tubes down their throats and fighting for their lives.
I won't ever dis a handgun, especially in the hands of one who knows how to use it. And I'm convinced that anyone who gets a solid hit from a .357 125gr JHP isn't going anywhere but down. Animals in the wild really have little bearing on the debate. People are relatively puny creatures with no natural means of self defense or defense from the elements. Of all the primates, we have the lowest muscle density and possibly the lowest threshold to pain. With modern JHPs and bullet configurations, not to mention new weapons designs, ball ammo will always be at the bottom of the list, regardless of caliber.
If it were up to me, I'd throw out that part of the Geneva Convention, arm our troops with 9mm +P JHPs and save American lives. But even barring that, for the .45 lovers, there's no reason a hi-cap .45 ACP can't be developed, even if the magazine extends below the grip.
mljdeckard
Member
Ok golden I read that line too quickly.
My current issue sidearm is a M9. I doubt I will EVER be issued any ammo other than NATO hardball. I have heard no indication of any kind that the general forces will use or receive any kind of HP ammo. If I thought for one second I could get away with it, I would bring 500 rds of it from home. Or better yet, I would just bring my Kimber.
My current issue sidearm is a M9. I doubt I will EVER be issued any ammo other than NATO hardball. I have heard no indication of any kind that the general forces will use or receive any kind of HP ammo. If I thought for one second I could get away with it, I would bring 500 rds of it from home. Or better yet, I would just bring my Kimber.
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