To use a handload or a factory load for defense?

[TAB]

what if it was not the bad guy you hit?

 

[MechAg94]

I think you just need to look at your local jurisdiction and prosecutors and decide how you would be treated in a self defense situation.

For me, I normally have used store bought stuff. Mainly I liked the boxes that say "self defense" on the box. It might not amount to much, but it isn't that expensive.

HOWEVER, my brother has started reloading and I have bought him a whole lot of HP rounds (Hornady and Remington and Sierra) that he has loaded for me in different calibers. They all have shot real good and those rounds have started to make their way into my magazines. I don't think it would be a big issue in my area.

For practice, I shoot other stuff. If I am not short on HP ammo, I will empty my loaded mag of HP's at a target as an exercise to see if the gun functions after sitting around for a while. That tests the gun and makes sure I cycle through HP ammo at a reasonable rate. I hate having mags with 3 year old HP ammo.

On the other hand, I think that if your lawyer cannot come up with a response to an aggressive prosecutor, then you need to find another lawyer. It should be something your lawyer anticipates and is ready for.

 

[kingpin008]

what if it was not the bad guy you hit?

Then you'd have a whole lot more to worry about than whether you were using handloads or not, I'd imagine.

 

[NC Dave]

Given that it could possibly be brought up as an issue (no matter how right or wrong that is) why would a person given any ammunition (no pun intended) to the prosecution?

Once in court, you will be fighting for you freedom and, quite possibly, your life. Don't you want as many of the chips stacked on your side of the table from the start?

Why would anyone willing give the prosecution something to question? The odds that you have someone on your jury that knows anything about hand-loading is pretty darn slim in most jurisdictions.

Why pay your defense attorney for an additional bunch of billable hours for doing all of the legwork to be able to mount a defense of your choice of ammunition?

Yes - I fully understand that there is no real difference between what we load at home and commercially loaded ammo, but, for me and for the reasons stated above, hand-loads are for the range and commercial ammo is for carrying.

 

[kingpin008]

I guess I just don't see how hard it is to understand that an individual can hand-load a quantity of ammunition that is identical in every aspect to a commercial brand.

I mean, if it were me, not only would I state the load that I used, I'd spend the money to have my recipe tested in a lab to demonstrate that it was indeed the same.

I agree that not everyone is going to understand handloading and all that, but when you're up on the stand explaining the recipe you used, and then bring in an independent witness who scientifically tested the rounds in question and found them identical, how can that seriously be disputed?

 

[mekender]

I guess I just don't see how hard it is to understand that an individual can hand-load a quantity of ammunition that is identical in every aspect to a commercial brand.

generally hand loads are actually different... they are more accurate, but their powder loads cant be anywhere near as consistent...

 

[HANDLOADER]

Your Wrong!!!

mekender

I am sorry to say but I am going to have to disagreewith your ideals. The ideal that handloads do not have a constent powder charge is complety ridiculous. I dare you to pull the bullets from a man's cartrige that sets and weighs out each charge. Your accusations about powder charges is a dead wrong belief when it comes to talking about my handloads. My loads do the same thing that factory loads will do. How do I know this I test and test them over and over until they obtain the same results. My powder charges are constint and are never off by any amount what so ever. So I must inform you right now that before you go makeing statments of this level in the future you should have your ducks in one row and your facts straight.

Handloader

 

[kingpin008]

they are more accurate, but their powder loads cant be anywhere near as consistent...

You must not know many benchrest shooters..

And btw, your own comment doesn't make sense - you say they're more accurate, yet you assert that the powder loads can't be as consistent as factory loaded ammo. How do you think handloaders get that improved accuracy? They're usually very, very meticulous with their loads. It's a heck of a lot easier to maintain consistent charge weights when you're sitting on a stool measuring out every other round, than it is if you're running a factory assembly line like the commercial folks do.

 

[Jacka L Ope]

I use handloads in my carry guns.

+1

 

[3rdpig]

Handloads won't put you at more risk in a good shoot, just as factory rounds won't make you safer in a bad shoot.

Agreed, it's the cases in the gray area where factory vs. handloads can make a difference.

 

[kentucky bucky]

The cops around here would say "good shot....could you give me your load data, I'd like to make a batch of those!"

 

[.38 Special]

A lot of folks are using the "That's just not logical/It doesn't make any sense" line in response to the idea that judges/juries/lawyers could use the handload issue against a defendant. Considering the kinds of foolishness that do get used against defendants on a regular basis, this seems a weak defense to me.

Having said that, the odds of A) firing a gun in self defense, B) being tried for it, and C) having handloads come up as an issue are, taken as a whole, vanishingly small. You could probably load up with jelly beans and have no problems.

 

[Hawk]

1) show me where this has EVER happened in the real world.

Here you go. Over two years ago but I reference it occasionally. Looks like a good deal of work went into it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

 

[mekender]

all three of the cases mentioned are invalid by todays standards... GSR testing has been dramatically improved... there are multiple laws that allow justified homicide now, and there are vast resources available for testing and retesting loads in ammo... quoting a case from the 70's, another from 1987 and another from 1989 does not show any pattern on the use of such prosecutions today... and while i highly respect Mr Ayoob's opinions... i must say that without current information where this has happened, i cannot consider it plausible in todays courts...

by the same token, i can show you countless murders and rapes that were convicted in those time frames and later exonerated because of new evidence testing methods... the technology has changed a lot in that time....

 

[Hawk]

Technology has changed. Some laws have changed. Numerous attitudes haven't.

You pay your money and take your choice.

Besides. I keep seeing the "show me ANY real world example" canard - wouldn't matter if it was 1789 Jamestown involving homebrew charcoal - there are real world examples and I tire of the assertion that there aren't.

 

[.38 Special]

Thanks for that post, Hawk.

"A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob"

Obviously it wasn't final, but I do find it quite persuasive. There is now no question in my mind that a prosecutor could make an issue of handloads, should he or she choose. That doesn't seem like a sensible gamble to me.

 

[ArmedBear]

I guess I just don't see how hard it is to understand that an individual can hand-load a quantity of ammunition that is identical in every aspect to a commercial brand.

I guess you haven't sat on a jury, then.

Trust me, you won't be judged by a panel of engineers. You'll be judged by the idiot who almost killed you this morning because he didn't look before he swerved across three lanes. You'll be judged by the girl in high school who flunked remedial math three times, and who watches The View daily. You'll be judged by someone whose cousin is a burglar, and someone who thinks an AR-15 is a machine gun that can penetrate armor plate. Half the US population has an IQ under 100, and most people who have higher-level careers get excused from jury duty. (I have served, because my employer wants me to.)

In a civil case, you only need 9 jurors out of the 12 to win. That one person who is principled and intelligent can't change the verdict like in a criminal trial.

For a guy on a gun board, you really trust the rationality of your fellow citizens a bit much. I hope that trust isn't ever shattered.

Let me tell you, though: sitting on a jury changed my view of a few things in the world. I might choose to waive my right to a jury trial, if I'm ever accused of something. That may depend on the judge, but at least the judge usually isn't a complete tool.

 

[janobles14]

ok guys listen carefully....

you WILL get prosecuted if the law will allow. the anti gun crowd is out there and are active.

as a police hand to hand trainer i will pass to you what they tell me.

for example: if you use factory speer gold dots (which is about all i use for every caliber) and you want to reload. reload spent speer brass with cci or win silver primers and gold dot bullets.

in a nutshell...mimick the load you want as closely as possible b/c powder is almost impossible to tell apart after fired so long as no major crime is involved.

again, i can not stress enough how important it is not to use distinguishing hand loads for defense. mimick and improve.

 

[71Commander]

moooose102. Michigan has the same provision.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Phyllis Washburn
July 20, 2006

(517) 373-1690


Castle Doctrine becomes law

Michigan residents given right to defend selves, homes



Michigan residents now have the right to use force to defend themselves and their families, if facing imminent harm at the hands of a violent criminal through Public Act 309 of 2006 sponsored by state Rep. Rick Jones.

Jones worked diligently to pass the legislation through the legislature.

“I’m very pleased the castle doctrine has become law,” said Jones, R-Grand Ledge. “It is very important to allow citizens the right to protect themselves and their families if they are facing death, great bodily harm or rape.”

The package of bills protects innocent victims from civil litigation or criminal prosecution.

During his 31 years at the Eaton County Sheriff’s office, Jones experienced firsthand the incident that helped inspire the legislation. Jones had a case where a violent criminal broke into a home and attacked a man, who fought fiercely for his life. Just as he was losing the battle, his wife came to his rescue and hit the attacker with a jar of pennies, sending the criminal to the hospital.

The criminal then recovered and brought a civil lawsuit against the family he harmed.

“It was shocking to watch this innocent family go through the pain and expense of a civil lawsuit,” Jones said. “Their incredibly painful experience was extended past the brutal attack. This law is important because it gives citizens a sense of safety that even though public safety officers can’t be everywhere all the time, they still have a right to personal safety.”

Further inspiration for the bill came from two books, “One Man’s Castle” and “Arc of Justice.” The books offer the historical account of Dr. Ossian Sweet, a black doctor who defended his life, his family and his Detroit home from a violent mob provoked by the Ku Klux Klan in 1925.

Sweet was successfully defended by the famed attorney Clarence Darrow, which set judicial precedent for the castle doctrine.

 

[bdickens]

My advice: do what you can afford.

 

[DWFan]

If a "sharp attorney" can say that the shooter deliberately loaded "excessive traumatic infliction" ammo for his weapon; an equally good defense attorney can argue that the shooter felt the moral obligation to use the most accurate ammo possible for his weapon to minimize the chance of a stray shot hitting an innocent bystander...then produce targets verifying that accuracy.

 

[XD_fan]

Y'all are forgetting the Black Talon. The prosecutor said, "Blaaack TAAAAlons" as a way to emphasize their awesome lethality. Over and over she did this. Sure you can still buy essentially the same round today, but its sure not called Black Talon.

We all know that we're not looking for a fight or have a burning desire to gun someone down. However, we are in the minority, those of us who CC, and will be treated as such in court. Why give a prosecutor even the least bit of help? Its not like innocent people haven't been wrongfully prosecuted, convicted and jailed in this country. Let's face it, we're not the cops and won't get the same shake they do.

I would have to agree that mimic and improve is probably the best way to go with a handload. And to get them tested to make sure they are meeting "spec". And to keep that documentation with the ammo. And to keep that ammo separate from the rest of your ammo. And to...well, its just easier to pick a box of shoks and be done with it. I do like the advice to mimic and improve though; it certainly doesn't lend itself to you somehow creating a "more lethal" round.

After everyone hears how overwhelmingly lethal your ammo is, and of the "awesome wounding capability of this assault load" (Thank you CSI:Miami, finally something worthwhile from that cess pool.), its pretty hard to refute fact when your attorney says, "The local police use the same ammo every day."

I have to agree that your probably not placing yourself in any further jeopardy to use handloads but its just another nit to for the prosecutor to pick at. YMMV

 

[ArmedBear]

an equally good defense attorney can argue that the shooter felt the moral obligation to use the most accurate ammo possible for his weapon to minimize the chance of a stray shot hitting an innocent bystander...then produce targets verifying that accuracy.

LOL

More comedy. At least this is entertaining.

Waving someone's targets around as a defense against the accusation of bloodlust. That's rich.

My advice: do what you can afford.

Think about this for a minute. A 20-round box of Cor-Bon .38 Sp+P is $23.27.

How much of a lawyer's time will $23.27 pay for?

And contrary to what some say, you don't have to practice with this stuff. Sure, you might want to practice with the same bullet weight and similar velocity, but it doesn't have to be premium JHP with premium sealed primers. Your wrist and the paper won't know the difference.

 

[mrkwns]

I guess I just don't see how hard it is to understand that an individual can hand-load a quantity of ammunition that is identical in every aspect to a commercial brand.

I mean, if it were me, not only would I state the load that I used, I'd spend the money to have my recipe tested in a lab to demonstrate that it was indeed the same.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to practice with the handloads, and buy a box of factory loads for sd? After all, if there truly is no difference between the two, it is an easy way to eliminate a risk.

It seems like it would be a lot more practical than having your ammunition analysed, and you wouldn't risk the possibility that the lab results come back different than you had hoped for. If you gain absolutely no advantage because you are using loads that are identical to factory loads anyway, why bother?

It doesnt make sense that you can afford all of the extra costs involved to justify your choice in ammunition, but are unwilling to pay the extra 15-20 dollars that it might cost you to buy factory loads for when you carry to avoid all of the hassle instead.

 

[coloradokevin]

Legally I don't see using a handload as an issue, even though it has been debated for years.

Simply put, you were either justified in shooting the bad guy, or not... If it was justified, it doesn't matter who loaded the bullet, or what the bullet was (or whether you used a gun, a tire iron, a baseball bat, a knife, or your bare hands... deadly physical force is deadly physical force).

While I do think it raises an interesting question, I don't know that I buy into the civil suit issue either. If I recall correctly, the Geneva Convention set guidelines which caused our military to carry ball (rather than JHP) pistol ammo. So, you could also argue that if you shot someone with Speer Gold Dot HPs, then the lawyer could say "My client was shot with a cruel bullet that has been outlawed by the Geneva Convention". In other words, these things can always have a bit of "spin" added to them by lawyers... As such, I would again remind you that the most important issue is whether or not you were justified in using that level of force in the first place.

Beyond the legal arena, how much do you trust your handloads? I'm a fairly new handloader myself, and I've been turning out a good product... But, I'm not ready to trust my life to my handloads at this point. For me, I continue to carry factory loaded 200gr Speer GDHP ammo.

You sound like you have been in the handloading game for quite some time, so if I were you, I probably wouldn't sweat carrying them!



Also, as a police officer, I doubt the issue would even come up. We'd collect the shell casings, and the gun... The gun would be examined along with the recovered bullets. It is highly unlikely that we'd come back and say "hey, where did you buy this ammo? We need the original box!"

I mean, heck, what if you were using remanufactured ammo, or someone else's handloads? Or, a mixture of different ammo? (not that I'd recommend any of these, but some people do silly stuff for "self defense")

Again, the shoot was either legally justified, or not.

It doesnt make sense that you can afford all of the extra costs involved to justify your choice in ammunition, but are unwilling to pay the extra 15-20 dollars that it might cost you to buy factory loads for when you carry to avoid all of the hassle instead

I was under the impression that the OP wanted to carry handloads because he was more comfortable with ammo that he had loaded himself. I've always carried ammunition that I'm most comfortable with for defense, so I could see why an experienced handloader could feel that way!