To use a handload or a factory load for defense?

[goalie]

I prefer to spend my time worrying about things that are likely to happen. Today, my big worry is getting hit by lightning.....twice......in one hour.

 

[feedthehogs]

I carry Black Talons in my 10mm carry gun because if I have to shoot, I want a media circus yelling from the roof tops that some lunatic trying to protect himself was using cop killer bullets.

By the time they get done you'll have thought that I was using nuke tipped bullets.

Because I don't want the sob's attorney stating:

And that is why my client is a quadriplegic

I want the sob's attorney saying: and that's why my clients head was completely blown off and scattered to the four corners of the world.



Back to watching for lightning also.

 

[Big Boomer]

I only carry factory, but that is mainly due to the fact that I have only been reloading for about 4 years so far and do not consider myself an "expert" by any sense of the means.

I once loaded up 200 rounds of 45 ACP that I had done thousands of times before and yet this time...they wouldn't chamber?!

Something went awry in the crimping process or something, so I redid them all with a lee factory crimp (great tool btw use it on all my calibers) and they functioned flawlessly. But it wasn't until the 3rd or 4th round that I really started having issues.

So, although I can reload damn good. problem is my quality control is less than factory. I can make better performing ammo hands down, but will it feed 100% and not jam? Thats the most important IMHO. So Errors in headspacing, crimping, bullet seating, not even getting to the primer and sealing those. It becomes hard when you try to build yourself some great ammo like corbon dpx but find that you have to do 100 of them just to find out if you can load it right. Well, they cost about $1 per bullet, not cartridge, but per bullet, you still have to pay for primer, powder and brass.

If I were loading for carry, I'd of course only want to use new unfired brass. So after 100 of those suckers wow you are talkin about some spendy testing there.


I'll let them make the carry load stuff

 

[MechAg94]

I think if your reloads are using factory HP bullets and are not excessive or unique in powder loads, you at least don't have to worry about some lawyer saying you made your own super deadly bullets or something.

That said, you others are right. It is easy to just use factory ammo in the first place.

 

[alsaqr]

I follow Massad Ayoob's writing's quite frequently and can recall multiple times where he states it is not a good idea to use handloads

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I cannot find where Massad Ayoob has cited one docket number where the use of handloaded ammunition in a righteous shooting made any difference in the outcome of a trial. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor along with a retired federal judge tried for years to find a case where the use of handloaded ammo became an issue in a righteous shooting case. They could not find one such case.

 

[alsaqr]

generally hand loads are actually different... they are more accurate, but their powder loads cant be anywhere near as consistent...

Consistency and accuracy go hand in hand.

 

[ArmedBear]

Is it so difficult to buy a box of good factory ammo?

 

[HIcarry]

Handloads versus "hollow points"

I think a "good" attorney will make use of whatever round you use. If it's the plaintiff's attorney he'll likely say you made "killer" handloads, and if you used JHPs, he'd say you used a bullet designed to inflict as much damage as possible. He (or she) also might use the caliber of the weapon you used in similar fashion...the PA in the Fish case in Arizona used such arguments...whether those arguments were instrumental in convicting him is debatable, but they were used.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/

 

[Griz44]

Recently at a political rally in the the State of Texas, a political liberal hack job reporter commented to a Texas Ranger on protection duty there that the cocked and locked 45 Colt loaded with Ranger SXT bullets) was too much. She asked the Ranger "Don't you think that's dangerous to carry such a big gun loaded and cocked like that?" The Ranger politely smiled and answered her back, " Lady, if it wasn't dangerous I would not be carrying it. It is supposed to be dangerous. We don't want the bad guys shooting back."

My carry is loaded with the most dangerous stuff I can get, and the bad guys WILL NOT be shooting back or suing anybody.

 

[Lady with a Gun]

At present, there is a lot less reason to use handloads for self defense, than there was in the past. Many of the ammunition manufacturers have excellent self defense loads on the market. I carry Corbon in my Glock, and feel confident that the Corbon load excellent stopping power.

 

[erictank]

Given that it could possibly be brought up as an issue (no matter how right or wrong that is) why would a person given any ammunition (no pun intended) to the prosecution?

Once in court, you will be fighting for you freedom and, quite possibly, your life. Don't you want as many of the chips stacked on your side of the table from the start?

Why would anyone willing give the prosecution something to question? The odds that you have someone on your jury that knows anything about hand-loading is pretty darn slim in most jurisdictions.

Why pay your defense attorney for an additional bunch of billable hours for doing all of the legwork to be able to mount a defense of your choice of ammunition?

Yes - I fully understand that there is no real difference between what we load at home and commercially loaded ammo, but, for me and for the reasons stated above, hand-loads are for the range and commercial ammo is for carrying.

Dave, those are pretty much the arguments my carry permit instructor used several years ago when I took my course here in VA. He also referenced Massad Ayoob, who has written several articles over the years based on his own experience as an expert witness in shooting cases. His (the instructor's) take was, "Here in VA, especially the Fredericksburg area [where I was living at the time], you're best off using either Winchester Silvertips like the city police, or Federal HydraShoks like the state troopers. Get some, shoot 'em till you are comfortable with them and know how they shoot in your pistol, and keep practicing with something similar in weight and speed that's more economical to shoot." Makes sense to me.

Given what I've read over the years, the cost of the occasional box of HydraShoks seems like a small one.

 

[Catherine]

I have factory loads in mine for self defense.

I use hand loads too. My husband hand loads.

I have heard both sides of this including full metal jacket versus hollow points versus YOU name it!

I was told to use HP for self defense years ago. I read this in many books too.

If I was in a 'situation' in the woods where a 2 legged creature (Bad guy.) decided to do me harm, IF I was in fear of my life and IF ALL I had loaded in my Ruger, Smith and Wesson, Marlin, etc. were HAND LOADS... I would dang sure use them and STOP the attack.

I would like to see a documented case where a hand load or reload in any type of ammunition did the VICTIM IN BY SOME OVER ZEALOUS D.A., police force, judge, jury and/or criminal's attorney.

Can anyone SHOW me where this has happened or did I miss it on here? Years ago, on some other websites... a former LE MAN and a JAILER who both went into the ministry claimed that there was never a case where this happened... reload versus factory load. That is what I remember but I am NOT positive if my memory is that accurate. I used to read many boards years ago.

Catherine

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Recently at a political rally in the the State of Texas

Recently eh? That story is older than the hills, though who the person asking the question is tends to vary. I think I first heard it in 1998 or thereabouts.

 

[scrat]

all of my guns have handloads. Except for my .22lr. Otherwise i dont have any factory ammo. just thousands of rounds of handloads.

 

[K3]

Is it so difficult to buy a box of good factory ammo?

Given time, it will be. Especially if any of those ammo serialization bills get legs.

The guy who mentioned getting hit by lightning twice in an hour hit the nail on the head. It reminds me of a scene from Hamburger Hill where a guy says to Biletski "Do you stay awake at night thinking of the things you should worry about?" Something like that.

 

[jrfoxx]

I think a "good" attorney will make use of whatever round you use. If it's the plaintiff's attorney he'll likely say you made "killer" handloads, and if you used JHPs, he'd say you used a bullet designed to inflict as much damage as possible. He (or she) also might use the caliber of the weapon you used in similar fashion...the PA in the Fish case in Arizona used such arguments...whether those arguments were instrumental in convicting him is debatable, but they were used.

Exactly what I was going to say. If a prosecutor is so inclined, for whatever reason, there are LOTS of things they can bring up to try to get the conviction.Handloads, "extra-deadly" hollow-points, the caliber used, an unrelated comment you made to your mother 6 months before the incident, a post on a forum, a picture on MySpace, Photobucket, still in your digital camera, etc. If a DA really wants to try and convict you, and wants to paint you in a bad light, there are TONS of things they can, and possibly will, use to do so.

So, what it boils down to,is there are a TON of things that COULD be used against you, and you cannot eliminate all of them (they could use the fact you belong to a gun forum against you, so ALL of us have at least 1 thing they COULD use, that we cant eliminate.The deed is done on that one), so you have to decide for yourself, what you think is best, based on your circumstances,and what makes you feel most comfortable/confidant (I say "feel", because you will never know if you made the right or wrong choices until after the fact, and then its too late).

All that said, I use factory ammo because its not so expensive I cant afford to buy it for SD/HD, as well as enough to test to my satisfaction, and, because I am just more confident in the R&D of the big manufacturers, than I am in my personal ability to gauge what is LIKELY to be the most effective round. They have more time, money, and people trained in that field, than me, so....

 

[Hawk]

I would like to see a documented case where a hand load or reload in any type of ammunition did the VICTIM IN BY SOME OVER ZEALOUS D.A., police force, judge, jury and/or criminal's attorney.

Can anyone SHOW me where this has happened or did I miss it on here? Years ago, on some other websites... a former LE MAN and a JAILER who both went into the ministry claimed that there was never a case where this happened... reload versus factory load. That is what I remember but I am NOT positive if my memory is that accurate. I used to read many boards years ago.

Not sure if this is what you're looking for:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

It was posted earlier in the thread so I might be reading your question wrong.

 

[WoofersInc]

Quote:
I follow Massad Ayoob's writing's quite frequently and can recall multiple times where he states it is not a good idea to use handloads

.


I cannot find where Massad Ayoob has cited one docket number where the use of handloaded ammunition in a righteous shooting made any difference in the outcome of a trial. Sheriff Jim Wilson, Handgun Editor along with a retired federal judge tried for years to find a case where the use of handloaded ammo became an issue in a righteous shooting case. They could not find one such case.

Post 67 right above me has a link to Mr Ayoob discussing cases where handloads were an issue. They may not have changed the outcome but it still remains that the use of handloads did come up in the trial.
I still would rather have that not be an issue at all. Even if I did handload I would continue to use factory for carry.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

I always carry factory and usually the same damned thing the local LEs are using if I can find it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You should use the ammo that is best for your personal safety and worry about the possible legal issues afterwards. You should not sacrifice your legal safety out of the fear of some legal preceding that may never materialize (note that I am not suggesting use of illegal arms).

With that said and as a general observation, I don't see handloads as being as good as factory ammunition in most cases. Lots of folks claim great reloads, but I rarely see such as performing better when at the range.