Too weak to rack slide?

[mljdeckard]

I took my mom to a rental range today.

She has recently showed interest in shooting and carrying, (much to everyone's surprise,) and my dad has been trying to help her learn. The problem is, he isn't the greatest teacher, and he really doesn't want to buy anything other than the guns he already has. (A few .22s and a 1911.) The main problem is, she has a hard time racking the slide. I think to myself; "No problem. I have seen this episode of Personal Defense TV. She needs to pull it in tight, grip over the top, and push the gun forward. I am SUCH a freakin' GENIUS."

So we go to the range, I buy a box of .38 and a box of 9mm, unfortunately, the only revolver they had to rent was an LCR. I had meant to let her shoot a medium-heavy weight revolver to show her how much easier it is, but instead all I could do was let her shoot a featherweight one with a small grip and tell her that bigger ones are much easier to shoot and wouldn't beat her up. (For what it's worth, I liked it a lot more than I thought I would.) Then we shot a Glock 17 and a Glock 19. I wanted to show her that she can handle a full-size gun, but a compact one might be a workable medium. With the last 15 rds we shot the Sig P-239. Another option to consider. She liked it a lot.

The problem was, she really still can't rack slides. It was a little easier, but still not easy enough to train with and clear malfunctions in a fight. I asked her what she was feeling, where it was hard, and she reminded me that a few years ago, she cracked her wrist, and it really hasn't been the same since. It is REALLY painful for her to grip a slide to rack it. She can do it maybe once or twice on the Sig, can BARELY do it on either of the Glocks. It was even hard for her to lock it to the rear, load a magazine, and tug it back to release it. She can still rack the Woodsman. But A: I have been in here for years telling people not to carry a .22 if there is anything else they can handle, and B: The Woodsman is an heirloom I don't want to see beat up, lost, or confiscated.

She needs to get real with either a heavy revolver DA pull, or racking a slide. Even if my dad loads the auto FOR her and outs it in her purse, she still needs to know how to reload and clear it. She's over 65 years old, her wrist probably won't get any better.

Before I resign her to the idea that she needs to carry a .22, use Stingers, and put as many rounds COM as possible, what should I have her try?

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

The Bersa Thunder .380 is really easy to rack.

My roomate has a CZ SP-01 with some custom work and a lighter recoil spring, that's even easier. You might invest $20 or so in some lightweight recoil springs for a variety of pistols that you or your rental range have access to and see if any of the guns that feel good in her hand are easy to rack, as well.

ETA: Something CZ-75 based might be a good bet, too, as there is much less weight in the slide than other designs.

 

[mljdeckard]

(Doc is on my ignore list.)

I have never tried lighter springs on a Glock. Maybe there's some power range to work with, I just don't like playing with something that already works.

This rental range didn't have a lot of selection, it was just close to where she lives. I would take her to one where I live, (Impact,) but I am out of time, I'm leaving for a while and I might not get a chance.

 

[gofastman]

Try having her lock her elbows and rack the slide by moving her shoulders, its hard to expain what I mean via internet post, but it works really well, even in really weak people

 

[geologist]

Look for a S&W model 12 Airweight. Load it with Nyclads. It only weighs 20 oz but is a full K frame so it's basically an alloy model 10. It'll have that smooth SW DA trigger and a scary light and crisp SA trigger pull. Easy to shoot and load/unload, no safeties, no clearing drills.

Did I mention that it doesn't have the infernal lock?

 

[GLOOB]

I wouldn't worry about it. She CAN rack the slide, if only "barely." Chances are very good that she'll get better at it. Even with pain, it's highly likely she'll find a way. It just takes time for people to figure out what works for them.

Practicing malfunction drills is good for that 5% chance that she'll need it in a gunfight. But for the other 95% of the time, she'll be glad to have any gun, and she'll do just fine with "barely."

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I have never tried lighter springs on a Glock. Maybe there's some power range to work with, I just don't like playing with something that already works.

That's a pretty valid concern. I've been doing some research lately on making myself an inexpensive race gun, not for competition, just for fun and to learn to tinker with. I uncovered a lot of interesting reading on how the Limited/Open people tune their guns for 100% reliablity with stupidly light springs. Most of them are running various 9mm cartridges loaded to atomic levels to make power factor, so whatever they're doing is probably applicable to self-defense as well. Maybe try looking around on the Brian Enos forums or just googling.

I don't know much about Glocks, but they're big in the stock/production divisions, so I bet there's a fair amount of race-related stuff out there for them, both information and parts.

ETA: I've seen from your other posts that you have a Kimber, why not toss a 13 or 14 pound spring in it and see how it works for her?

 

[Billy Shears]

A good gun for someone in her position might be a Beretta Model 86 .380ACP. The barrel tips up at the breech end to allow the shooter to insert a cartridge without having to rack the slide. I think you may have to go to the used gun market for one of these though.

 

[JoeSlomo]

I have never tried lighter springs on a Glock. Maybe there's some power range to work with, I just don't like playing with something that already works.

Lighter springs are indeed an option.

I run 14 pounders in my competition 1911's and have absolutely NO issues with ball ammo at major power level. I know guys that run 11 pounders.

Would it be an issue with hollow points? Don't know. After 5k + stoppage free rounds of hard ball, I really don't care because I KNOW what fires every time.

As mentioned above, check out the Benoverse and see what the production guys are running with in their Glocks. I bet you can go lighter and not sacrifice reliability.

Aside from lighter springs, a revolver may be in order.

 

[nitetrane98]

At least you seem to understand the concept of weakness brought on by pain. Some folks do not. It boils down to if she can't do it, she can't do it. I think in a do or die situation the adrenaline will take care of any temporary pain. The main thing would be that she knows how to do it. It doesn't take 100s of reps to learn to rack a slide. Maybe putting in light spring for practice would work. She would know that it's only for practice and the real deal will be a bit harder. If she can rack one a couple of times that should be sufficient.

I suppose it would be ideal for her to be able to do a tap, rack and bang drill, but let's be reallistic here. I believe I would rather have my mom shooting the most powerful gun she is capable of shooting and concentrate on making that gun the most reliable it can possibly be.

At the end of the day all she REALLY needs to know how to do is safely aim and shoot a gun. The rest is kind of gravy. Unless you're going to Ninja her up to 2-3 extra mags, BUG and a blade, as long as she knows how to shoot, I could live with loading the mag, racking the slide, engage the safety and say, "Here ya' go Mom, ready to go. Be safe out there."

Failing all that, she could just sit down with a good lawyer. They have the answer for everything. Wouldn't light springs be something that ol' mean prosecutor could use against her.

 

[dom1104]

I love CZ 75s but it is the LAST pistol I would reccomend for someone who cant rack a slide.

The issue isnt the weight, its the small amount of slide to grab onto.

CZs have very little real estate to grab onto.

 

[KDS]

My mom can't rack the slide on any of my guns either. She is in her 60s and just got her first gun last year. After trying out a lot of guns, she bought a Smith & Wesson 642. She shoots it really well and with the oversized Crimson Trace laser grips, it doesn't beat her up at all. She'll shoot at least 50-100 rounds through that gun every time we go to the range.

 

[wombat13]

Try having her lock her elbows and rack the slide by moving her shoulders, its hard to expain what I mean via internet post, but it works really well, even in really weak people

I have just gone through this process with my wife. To make a long story short, she couldn't rack my XD45 and can't pull the DA trigger on a snubbie. We went to a LGS and she tried out a G19, G26, M&P9c, and Walther PPS. The owner told her to extend the firearm out in front of her, push with her strong hand and pull the weak hand. She could rack all four with no problems at all.

I think this is the same technique you suggested. When you extend the firearm out in front or go as far as you suggest and lock the elbows, the strength to rack the slide is coming from the shoulders, not the arms.

 

[Slamfire]

Women are just weaker. There are a few that are surprisingly strong, but most are not. Outside of taking her to the gym to build up her muscles, find something that does not have a slide.

Something that does not have a lot of recoil, nor a lot of weight.

 

[Manco]

mljdeckard, based on our previous conversations, I think that you place a lot more emphasis on the differences in effectiveness between calibers than I do, but having said that we're kind of in the same boat here because I've been trying to find an ideal solution for my mom, as well.

First off, read this recent thread if you haven't already:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=527079

Although I still believe that most everybody of any size or gender can rack any slide when using the right technique, it will always be difficult for some because of their individual issues, and I don't think that being able to clear malfunctions or fully operate one's defensive pistol should be in question. In addition to practical and tactical issues, one's confidence will play a role as well, and I wouldn't want to compromise on that if it's avoidable.

My mom, although fairly robust for her age (67 years), can rack even a fairly heavy slide now with some effort, but cannot do it consistently on the first try, so after working on it with her for a while, I've come to the conclusion that she'd probably be better off with a revolver because she can at least pull the trigger (in DA mode) every time. She actually came to this conclusion well before I did because frankly she's tired of trying to do something that she doesn't believe she'll ever be good enough at anyway (she's gone from preferring autoloaders at first to greatly preferring revolvers). In fact, she knows exactly what gun she wants: a Smith & Wesson Model 617 with a 10-round cylinder and 6" barrel (for home defense only). The only reason I've been resisting her choice is the fact that it is chambered in .22 LR, but I think that I'm going to cave on that, too. All she needs to know is that she shoots better with it--faster and more accurately at speed--and that it can kill and/or chase off bad guys, which it certainly can.

Back to your mom, perhaps lighter springs are the way to go, as long as reliability doesn't suffer, but I would suggest at least carefully considering how well she handles different calibers to see whether it makes a significant difference for her. Everybody has different standards, and I, for one, place a lot of emphasis on how fast one can shoot with adequate recovery and of course accuracy. If your mom is willing to practice a lot, then maybe she can get used to larger calibers, but if she's not going to work at it much, then perhaps a smaller caliber would be more suitable, in all honesty. The latter would also obviate the issue of being able to rack a slide, since smaller calibers tend to have lighter recoil springs.

In my view, all a bullet needs to do is penetrate adequately, leaving the rest to shot placement and preferably multiple hits. For instance, I've managed to convince myself that my mom's choice of handgun is quite a practical one for her because it has decent capacity, a relatively long barrel that should allow solid .22 LR bullets to meet the minimum 12" penetration standard that most people (including law enforcement) go by, it's inherently reliable and advances to the next round in case of ammunition failure (more frequent with rimfire ammo, although CCI ammo has been extremely reliable in my experience) with the next pull of the trigger, and does not require her to rack a slide (I wouldn't trust the reliability of a .22 LR autoloader for self-defense anyway for several reasons). Anyway, I've rambled enough for now....

 

[Jim Watson]

To make a long story short, she couldn't rack my XD45 and can't pull the DA trigger on a snubbie.

This is my worry about the Standard Internet Recommendation to "get her a revolver."
I have seen women placing both forefingers on the trigger of a DA revolver (or auto) to be able to drag it back against the mainspring.

I don't know The Answer, but proper technique described on The Cornered Cat will go a long way towards operating the slide. Also, if the gun has an exposed hammer, cocking it first to get the resistance of the mainspring out of the way will help a lot.

I think there is also a case for furnishing the non-enthusiast with a loaded gun and hoping she can get the job done in one magazine full, as Nitetrane said above.

I know one Lady Shooter who has trouble racking the slide, so for recreation and defense practice, she does it once at the range. She sets out her gear, hangs a target, loads the gun, grits her teeth, and racks the slide to chamber a round. After that, the gun is either being shot, or is empty at slidelock. Change targets, insert a fresh magazine, punch the slide stop, and she is back in action with little exertion.

 

[RidgwayCO]

Here's another vote for the Beretta 86. If that has too much recoil, then the Beretta 21A has the same tip-up barrel design (no slide manipulation required).

 

[Jim Watson]

The Beretta 86 is frequently mentioned but seldom seen. I was with a friend who was breaking in his co-worker on one and can say it is rather fiddly to operate.

The Model 86 Beretta pistol is loaded by the following procedure:
Put the SAFETY LEVER in the ON position with the RED DOT completely covered. Be sure the safety lever is all the way up and the Red Dot is covered.
Put the hammer in the half cock position.
ROTATE THE BARREL LATCH 180 DEGREES, COUNTERCILOCKWISE, . one half way around. This will allow you to tilt the barrel open.
At this point you can insert a cartridge directly into the chamber of the barrel. Be sure the cartridge is fully inserted. DO NOT TRY TO FORCE the barrel closed if the cartridge is not fully into the chamber. A clean chamber will make loading simple. Once the chamber is loaded, press the barrel] down and ROTATE THE BARREL CATCH 180 DEGREES CLOCKWISE to assure that the barrel catch has fully engaged. Now you can insert the loaded magazine into the grip frame of the pistol. Push the magazine in until the magazine catch locks it in place

Note that the opening lever is on the right side of the gun and must be swung 180 degrees back to open the barrel, then forward again to latch it down when closed. This is more activity than the spring return lever on the left side of the .22,.25, and .32 Berettas. It can also lead to a right hander pointing the gun in some scary directions in the process.

 

[Salty1]

The Sig P250 has a pretty light slide pull compared to the others while still staying up in caliber. My wife initially had the same issue so I started by not having her lock the slide back and just slingshot it to load a round. That worked out fairly well as it would automatically lock back on the final round anyways. Grease on the rails versus oil will make it seem a bit looser as well, I use slideglide. As an FYI, my wife loves my LCR and actually takes it ocassionally as it fits her hand and there is not much to think about other than aim and squeeze

 

[Manco]

This is my worry about the Standard Internet Recommendation to "get her a revolver."
I have seen women placing both forefingers on the trigger of a DA revolver (or auto) to be able to drag it back against the mainspring.

Whatever works. Having never tried this myself (although I've seen it done in movies and on TV a couple of times), is it really bad for trigger control? On the one hand, two fingers would seem to roughly double the number of things that can go wrong during a trigger pull, but on the other hand it might actually help to cancel out horizontal motion and reduce strain that might otherwise cause sympathetic squeezing of the other fingers that can make shots go low. I've always chuckled whenever I saw somebody use both index fingers, but maybe it works better for some people.

Also, if the gun has an exposed hammer, cocking it first to get the resistance of the mainspring out of the way will help a lot.

As I recall suggesting in the other recent thread with a similar topic, one could cock the hammer with the weak-hand thumb for each shot on a revolver, or even try "slip-shooting" (holding down the trigger and fanning the hammer with the weak-hand thumb instead of one's palm) with SA revolvers (shouldn't cause any damage as long as the trigger is held back firmly and you don't pull the hammer back excessively far or hard). Either technique should allow one to shoot quickly enough with practice. Whatever works.

I think there is also a case for furnishing the non-enthusiast with a loaded gun and hoping she can get the job done in one magazine full, as Nitetrane said above.

While I prefer to have at least one reload on hand myself, one fully loaded gun is usually all it takes. For the non-enthusiast, having a second loaded gun handy is probably better, if more ammo capacity is desired, and many experts prefer this as well.

I know one Lady Shooter who has trouble racking the slide, so for recreation and defense practice, she does it once at the range. She sets out her gear, hangs a target, loads the gun, grits her teeth, and racks the slide to chamber a round. After that, the gun is either being shot, or is empty at slidelock. Change targets, insert a fresh magazine, punch the slide stop, and she is back in action with little exertion.

That's right, racking a slide is not something that many people have to do very often, but I think that clearing malfunctions is an ability that most here would consider important. On the other hand, if one's pistol is very reliable--as it should be if it is intended to be used for defensive purposes--then one could choose to take their chances that it will always go bang, in which case we might be making too big of a deal out of being able to rack a slide. In fact, that's the current situation with my home defense pistol--I expect to be the one to most likely have to use it, but if somebody else in my household has to, then I hope that one magazine is enough and that it will function flawlessly, as it always has. The other members of my family can shoot and have reloaded the gun before, but they just don't train like I do, so I try not to burden them with too much to think about regarding equipment (I'd rather that they focus on the task at hand).

Here's another vote for the Beretta 86. If that has too much recoil, then the Beretta 21A has the same tip-up barrel design (no slide manipulation required).

That's an interesting idea (forgot all about it), but how does one clear malfunctions on that thing?

With all due respect, every handgun is going to recoil.....it is called physics and it has laws also. Every action has an opposite and EQUAL reaction. This is also going to be determined by the mass of the projectile. FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION .

Yeah, but for example there's a significant difference between shooting a .357 Magnum round out of a lightweight, small-frame revolver and a .22 LR round out of a much heavier medium-frame, long-barreled revolver. In a real-life combat situation (as opposed to shooting a round a minute at a static target at the range), I think that my mom, for one, would be far deadlier with the latter because she can more rapidly place well-aimed shots into the target (plus she actually enjoys shooting it, while larger calibers give her a massive flinch).

 

[Boomm]

I taught my GF to rack the slide a different way because can't just pull it back and let it go, Ill try to explain how I taught her to do it.

If she is right handed, have her hold the gun palm facing up and gun pointing to the left. Next, have her place her left hand on the slide. Then have her lean into it and push the slide to the right, and the frame to the left.

I've taught a number of women to shoot and most, not all, have had difficulty racking the slide. All of them found this method the easiest because you are using your chest and your lats to rack the slide instead of your arms and wrist.

 

[Jim Watson]

Boomm,
The technique is valid but she should adjust her grip or stance to keep the gun pointed downrange. I have seen people point their guns to the left to get this kind of purchase on the slide, or to rotate the gun to reach the magazine catch, and it will make anybody on that side very nervous... with good reason.
There is also some risk of exaggerating the position and pointing the gun at the left elbow.

 

[Boomm]

Clearly

 

[BHP FAN]

Buy mom a used S&W 4'' bbl.revolver?

 

[geologist]

A good old fashioned K frame SW model 10 has a very light DA trigger pull.