Took new shooter handgun shopping at Cabelas, big mistake

45/30-06OKIE said:
Wow so in your opinion the tungsten guide rods actually work? Hmmm cause my Gen 2 21 recoils like a 9mm with 230gr ball with the stock recoil spring. So a tungsten guide rod and aftermarket spring would lessen that even more?
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Weight in the lower provides greater resistance to movement for the slide to operate against, which helps limp wristing, so does a WML. To what extent can be disputed.

Same can be said of the above for forward weight on the lower for muzzle flip.

Physics.

As to what extent change you experience in your G21 on recoil, I cannot say, I would think just straight "felt recoil" a tungsten/stainless guide rod probably wouldn't be very perceptible.
 
Many years ago at a small local shop, a bad actor came in, asked to see a specific pistol and when handed it, inserted a loaded magazine he'd brought with, racked it and shot the shop owner.

Also consider that most big box stores don't let their staff be armed, while most small shops do; that means it might be more attractive for something like that to happen at one of those mega-stores. In the long run, the trigger guard is probably a prudent way to keep their staff safer.

Larry
 
Highland Lofts said:
I've had several new shooters shoot the 23 and loved it.
As far as ammo goes most new shooters will not be out going cowboy at any range.
One box of fifty will last them awhile.
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And that’s bad. 😞

Only way to get confident, and competent, with any new gun purchase is quality instruction and trigger time putting that instruction to use.

Personally, I find the Glock 43X and 48 to be great options for those with smaller hands that want an auto pistol. (Unfortunately, here in Ca those guns aren’t on the “roster of safe guns” so they are not easy to acquire here. :mad:)

Hopefully, @bigpower491 s friend is able to try out several guns to find out the one(s) she likes and shoots best… and then follows up and puts in the time and effort to become proficient with it. 🙏

Stay safe.
 
Highland Lofts said:
I've had several new shooters shoot the 23 and loved it.
As far as ammo goes most new shooters will not be out going cowboy at any range.
One box of fifty will last them awhile.
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Well, I know dozens of experienced shooters that consider anything in .40 as "snappy" and refuse to buy another.
As far as ammo goes they shoot thousands of rounds per year in competition.
One box of fifty is two to three boxes shy of what they'll shoot at a range trip.

Seriously, new or novice shooters need to learn the basics on a cartridge that allows them to shoot often and without regard for recoil.......the lowly .22LR.
You don't stick a new driver behind the wheel of a Testarossa or a bulldozer. Sure, they'll say the "loved it" but that isn't the point is it?

"One box of fifty will last them awhile" is called a clue. It shouldn't last them more than a half hour.
 
With today's prices where I go shooting the volume of shooters is way down,
People who use to shoot for an hour or so at a time now snap off a couple of mags or cylinders and leave.
 
I won't buy a gun at a gun store that I can't dry fire it because of a trigger lock. The last time I was at the local Cabela's they wouldn't take the trigger locks off. There are no other gun stores that aren't a 3 hour drive from home. After my last visit to Cabela's I will forever buy my guns online. When they start whining about the demise of local gun stores I would consider the anal trigger lock policy a major contributor.
 
frogfurr said:
I won't buy a gun at a gun store that I can't dry fire it because of a trigger lock. The last time I was at the local Cabela's they wouldn't take the trigger locks off. There are no other gun stores that aren't a 3 hour drive from home. After my last visit to Cabela's I will forever buy my guns online. When they start whining about the demise of local gun stores I would consider the anal trigger lock policy a major contributor.
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Agree, trigger quality can vary even with the same make and model. I remember when I bought my Glock 26, the store had 3 of them. I picked the one that had no creep after the wall, where the other 2 did have some creep. Maybe in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter that much, but it made me feel good that I was able to dry fire all 3 before purchase. Even the clerk agreed that the one I picked did seem to have a little better trigger.
 
One can't truly tell if the gun fits their hand well with a trigger lock on it. I went there to look at a S&W CSX. I have large hands and with the trigger lock on it it seemed too small for my hands. Maybe with the trigger lock taken off the gun may have fell into my hands nicely. Cabela's lost a potential sale that day and so did S&W.
 
The Night Rider said:
Why do you want to make life harder for the guy at the low end of the food chain who doesn't have a choice?

He's just doing what corporate told him and it's quite likely that he could be fired for disobeying that directive.

He also doesn't care if you buy it elsewhere because he's going to get paid whether you buy or not
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Cabelas is probably the last place I'd go shopping for a firearm anyway. I can't help his job choices.
 
dogtown tom said:
This.
I cannot imagine a single reason why a new shooter would consider a Glock 23. While its true you can get aftermarket 9x19 barrels, I just dont see that as a good argument for a new shooter in choosing a handgun. I don't even see it as a good argument for an experienced shooter.

While the .40 S&W isn't dead or obsolete, it most certainly is becoming an albatross along with .357sig and .45GAP. Not because those cartridges are inferior, but because sales of .40 are abysmal compared to 9x19. Lack of sales of .40 pistols impacts the ammunition market and less demand means higher prices for those cartridges.

A new shooter should be putting as many rounds downrange as they can afford, and thats easier to do with 9x19. There is a reason the FBI, Secret Service and others went back to 9x19.
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I guess she figured if she needed to shoot to protect herself against vicious men, she wanted a reliable pistol, in a men's calibre. :cool:
 
Exactly right. If you really want to help a person don't take them to a tourist trap. The most important help is to get basic handguns from family and friends. Lay them out,teach safety and proper handling. Then shoot them to make a maybe and heck no groups. Now the part about a 40 S&W for a new woman shooter. Oh heck no. I bought a pink tiny Taurus 9mm just so we all can see how soft and gentle they shoot. That stops that idea. My neighbor acquired a little 22lr auto loader just to demo with some ammo that has a lot of duds. That stops that idea. Snub nose 9mm is educational. You never know what people will like. My wife picked out a sp101 22lr. Fits her hands and when a dud shows up she just pulls the trigger again. She has that one old revolver and never wants to look at new firearms. Who can have just one.
 
Trigger locks ARE a hassle. But checking the nature of the trigger movement is less important than verifying that the new shooter's trigger finger lands in the right spot on the trigger. Polishing trigger components is much easier than changing a frame size to fit a shooter's hand.
 
luzyfuerza said:
Trigger locks ARE a hassle. But checking the nature of the trigger movement is less important than verifying that the new shooter's trigger finger lands in the right spot on the trigger. Polishing trigger components is much easier than changing a frame size to fit a shooter's hand.
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Exactly my point. Like I said, I get the policy in today's world, but kinda have to take into consideration that she probably isn't gonna be like most of us in the fact that this may be the only gun she ever buys. So the need to get it right, or as close to right as possible is high on the priorities.
Talked to my LGS, we're stopping in there tomorrow. He says no problem getting her what she wants, and I wouldn't doubt it's much more, if anymore, than what Johnny's big box wants price wise. The big plus is he sells alot of Glocks, and knows all the models pretty much inside and out.
Put together some cream puff 40s with 155s a touch over minimum charge of Zip, so she can get a taste of auto loader shooting this afternoon
 
LUCKYDAWG13
G48 would be a good pick Big enough for a range gun, small enough to conceal carry. Especially since you can get fifteen round magazines for it
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That's the same thing I felt when I was looking for a micro 9mm. I have smaller size hands and a number of full and even compact size 9mm.s just feel too wide for me to get a comfortable grip on the gun. Checked out the Glock G48 and found it to be just the right size for my hand. It could make for being both a decent range gun, as well as be perfectly suited for concealed carry.
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I was in Bass Pro in Springfield MO a couple of years ago. They had a slightly used S&W .460 with the 2¾" barrel that I took a liking to. I asked the counter person if they would ship to an FFL for transfer and he said "sure" and handed me the gun with, of course, the trigger lock. I said I'd buy it if I could check the carry-up and lockup. "Sorry. I'm not allowed to take the lock off". I handed it back, thanked him for his time, and walked away.
 
Anyone that has ever worked in the gun biz is well aware of the tire kickers that just can't help themselves fondling, dry firing, checking the trigger reset, racking slides, opening cylinders, checking timing, lockup and examining the rifling in a new gun barrel. If they do decide to buy, they often don't want the gun on display, but one thats "in the back"., untouched by human hands. :rofl:

Multiply "that guy" by ten per day in Cabelas or by a hundred at a gun show and you get the idea of why they don't want anything more than a visual examination.
 
dogtown tom said:
Anyone that has ever worked in the gun biz is well aware of the tire kickers that just can't help themselves fondling, dry firing, checking the trigger reset, racking slides, opening cylinders, checking timing, lockup and examining the rifling in a new gun barrel. If they do decide to buy, they often don't want the gun on display, but one thats "in the back"., untouched by human hands. :rofl:

Multiply "that guy" by ten per day in Cabelas or by a hundred at a gun show and you get the idea of why they don't want anything more than a visual examination.
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Excellent post as I'm sort of in the middle about this and see both sides. I have been guilty of everything you describe, but then I want one from the back that nobody has ever touched. I have a friend that stormed out of Turners Outdoorsmen, because the clerk wouldn't let him disassemble a handgun he was thinking of purchasing.
 
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dogtown tom said:
Riomouse911 said:
And that’s bad. 😞 ... Only way to get confident, and competent, with any new gun purchase is quality instruction and trigger time putting that instruction to use.
Click to expand...
"One box of fifty will last them awhile" is called a clue. It shouldn't last them more than a half hour.
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Totally agree ... hard to substitute trigger time.

dogtown tom said:
Well, I know dozens of experienced shooters that consider anything in .40 as "snappy" and refuse to buy another.
As far as ammo goes they shoot thousands of rounds per year in competition.
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I transitioned my USPSA calibers from 45ACP/9mm to 40S&W to better meet both major and minor power factors using 155/165/180 gr bullets. As to "snappy" recoil, I find that subjective and different for people and could be mediated by proper training on grip. What I found mainly with many non-match shooting 40S&W shooters complaining of "snappy recoil" was they never changed out recoil springs (And this applies to 45ACP 1911s). Since I carried spare 16/18.5 lb Wolff/Wilson Combat springs for 1911, when I noticed significant muzzle flip, 16 lb for target loads and 18.5 lb for factory loads and presto, milder recoil with less muzzle flip. Same for Glock 22 ... drop in new factory $7 recoil spring assembly and presto, milder recoil with less muzzle flip.

Nice thing about Glock 22/23/27 is that 40-9mm conversion barrels are readily available for cheaper 9mm practice (More trigger time for same amount of cost as 40S&W ammunition) using the same trigger.

dogtown tom said:
Seriously, new or novice shooters need to learn the basics on a cartridge that allows them to shoot often and without regard for recoil.......the lowly .22LR.
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I agree. Advantage Arms makes 22LR slide kits for Glock 22/23 and will allow cheapest practice using the same trigger. When I do enough fast point shooting drills in several range sessions with 22LR slide kit (Compared to cost of 40S&W ammunition) to buy a new pistol, makes me smile. (Doesn't matter I already spent over $190,000 in 30 years for shooting/reloading components :))
 
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frogfurr said:
I won't buy a gun at a gun store that I can't dry fire it because of a trigger lock. The last time I was at the local Cabela's they wouldn't take the trigger locks off. There are no other gun stores that aren't a 3 hour drive from home. After my last visit to Cabela's I will forever buy my guns online. When they start whining about the demise of local gun stores I would consider the anal trigger lock policy a major contributor.
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What's the difference between buying a gun online that you can't dry fire and buying a gun with a trigger lock on it that you can't dry fire?
 
The Night Rider said:
What's the difference between buying a gun online that you can't dry fire and buying a gun with a trigger lock on it that you can't dry fire?
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I was taught to shoot matches and reload while building a match 1911 from Norinco donor with Wilson Combat components from a seasoned bullseye match shooter doing all the fitting including a 2.5 lb trigger job.

I learned accuracy of pistol to produce tight groups on target primarily comes from muzzle not moving much when bullet exits the barrel. What I learned from that trigger job is firing pin/striker release is not an "instantaneous" event rather a sequence of events that require increasing amount of force to undo several intentional safeguards and mechanical action of metal-to-metal contact surfaces overcoming friction/tension applied by springs and leverage; and muzzle is moving the whole time from shooter induced input on trigger/grip and what's going on inside the pistol as stated by Jerry Miculek and Brian Zins - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640

When I did Burwell site posted trigger job on my M&P40/45 from gritty 9-10 lbs down to smooth 4.5 lbs, certain engagement surfaces HAD to be "reshaped" from round circle to a smooth incline and metal-to-metal surfaces polished so the sequence of undoing intentional safeguards and metal-to-metal surface friction decreased - http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htm

And why do we do trigger jobs or replace triggers? Because even after break-in of trigger parts, front sight/muzzle still moves when firing pin/striker is released when dry fired.

What most people do not realize is that there is "natural point of aim" that is produced by pistol properly gripped in hand(s) when proper trigger control is exercised and this "natural point of aim" can be repeated even with eyes closed to produce fast point shooting tight groups with accurate enough ammunition (See my signature line on "Holes on target speak volumes") as demonstrated by these videos - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...hose-with-vision-issues.891558/#post-11996959

So when buying a pistol, starting out with a pistol that doesn't move the front sight/muzzle (Or that moves minimally) when dry fired will help produce greater accuracy after trigger/gun parts break-in. You can't do this buying guns online or not being able to dry fire. When I bought my last Glock 23, I went through several Glock 23s while dry firing. When the range/gun store employee asked what I was looking at, I told him modular assembly of parts did not always produce optimal trigger parts mating and showed him how the front sight jerked/moved when the striker was released and the one I decided to buy did not (When he dry fired comparing the two pistols, he was surprised). Yes, trigger surfaces will smooth out during break-in, but starting out with pistol that doesn't move the front sight/muzzle (Or move minimally as possible) likely will result in more accurate pistol.

During my 10,000+ round "real world" 22LR comparison testing using brand new 10/22 and T/CR22 where every 5/10 shot groups were captured, factory 10/22 trigger pull went from gritty 7.5 lbs to cleaner/smoother 4.7-4.8 lbs after 3000 rounds and then down to 4.5 lbs after 3500 rounds, it still added significant input to trigger after "real world" break-in resulting in left/right POI deviation (BTW, T/CR22 factory trigger went from 6 lbs down to 4.5 lbs). So triggers were updated with Volquartsen Target Hammer kits which reduced 10/22 trigger pull down to 2.25 lbs (2.75 lbs after initial installation) and 2 lbs for T/CR22 to minimize shooter induced flyers (Until I needed to replace/rework bolt to pin firing pin and square/headspace bolt face to reduce flyers further). On my last range trip, after 3000 rounds 10/22 Volquartsen trigger was just over 2 lbs and after 1500 rounds, T/CR22 trigger was just under 2 lbs - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nition-comparison.908102/page-2#post-12812234

So for me, being able to dry fire is pretty important.;)
 
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