FIVETWOSEVEN
Member
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- Aug 28, 2009
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The gun on my belt has one in the chamber and a fully loaded mag right behind it.
Topping off a magazine.
- Thread starter igousigloo
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Beretta actually suggests in their 92/96 magazines that it's better not to top off. They don't actually say not to do it, in fact they provide their recommended procedure for topping off. But they do say that not topping off "is an advantage because the magazine spring is not fully compressed but under about the same tension as a ... loaded spare magazine."
For what it's worth, I read somewhere that British troops were fined if their magazines in Hi-Powers were fully loaded. There was a belief that one round short of full made for greater reliability. So that's what I do- heck, I have one extra in the tube anyway.
Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland
Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland
Zerodefect
member
Well, yeah.
The first round and the last round in a magazine are the hardest to feed. Racking the slide after reloading is also another huge souce of malfunctions. I'll agree that one round less in the magazine in certain pistols is more reliable.
Try a competition that keeps a running point total for the entire year, like an autoracing championship, and also records failures and deducts points for that. It almost allways first, last, and reloads.
The first round and the last round in a magazine are the hardest to feed. Racking the slide after reloading is also another huge souce of malfunctions. I'll agree that one round less in the magazine in certain pistols is more reliable.
Try a competition that keeps a running point total for the entire year, like an autoracing championship, and also records failures and deducts points for that. It almost allways first, last, and reloads.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Me said:
Well, I thought of this thread today as I fought with a Springfield XDM in .40 with a full magazine.
I have to take back my statement above. This thing, with 16 rounds in a mag, wasn't designed by a human as far as I can tell.
You can get that 16th round in there with the loading tool that comes with the gun, but getting it to seat during a speed reload is about 50-50 unless you use a hammer
I now understand why some download one round, and I will do it always with this XDM on the rare occasion I carry the darned thing.
Fastcast
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Well, I thought of this thread today as I fought with a Springfield XDM in .40 with a full magazine.
I have to take back my statement above. This thing, with 16 rounds in a mag, wasn't designed by a human as far as I can tell.
You can get that 16th round in there with the loading tool that comes with the gun, but getting it to seat during a speed reload is about 50-50 unless you use a hammer
I now understand why some download one round, and I will do it always with this XDM on the rare occasion I carry the darned thing.
No, it's defective....Send it back to the manufacture.
Just kidding ya but that aside, I've noticed this on many semi-autos.
I'm with Drail on this one but then I've argued on here before about always leaving high cap mags fully loaded, even when not in use and got an ear full about how it's perfectly fine.
You gentlemen keep right on smashing your mag springs to oblivion. I'll keep 'em one shy (no top off) and several shy when not in actual use. Reliability trumps everything and always running anything to the max, will without a doubt wear it out prematurely. That's my belief and I'm sticking to it. Blast away.
Waywatcher
Member
I keep my Glock 23 (.40) mags loaded at -1 of full capacity. Much easier to seat the mag on a closed slide.
ny32182
Member
How new are the mags/springs?
I ask because I am firmly in the camp of "smack the magazine in with authority", and given enough force, have never been unable to seat a fully loaded magazine this way until very recently, when I replaced the springs in the two G19 mags I carry with plus power ISMI units; the G19 versions of the ones I have gone to in my 34 for IDPA.
Since they were + power especially, getting 15 in the first time was quite difficult, and I could NOT get those puppies to seat on a closed slide with anything resembling a normal smashing in of the magazine, and I'm not a very small guy. These are the same mags, same followers, same gun that that task was easily accomplished with the relatively worn factory springs, so it is definitely the springs. They have been sitting loaded for a few days and I've been meaning to check them to see if they have broken in some.
That said, I have never "topped off" my carry pistol:
1) 15 vs. 16... meh, who cares? If it was 7 vs. 8 or something like that where one round represented a greater percentage of your total, maybe I would.
2) Gives me a spot to put the extra round if the gun is cleared.
3) I can feel a significant difference in how much drag there is on the slide, when there is 15 vs. 14 rounds in the mag. This is due to the extra upward pressure on the slide if it is cycling with a full 15 vs. 14.
I ask because I am firmly in the camp of "smack the magazine in with authority", and given enough force, have never been unable to seat a fully loaded magazine this way until very recently, when I replaced the springs in the two G19 mags I carry with plus power ISMI units; the G19 versions of the ones I have gone to in my 34 for IDPA.
Since they were + power especially, getting 15 in the first time was quite difficult, and I could NOT get those puppies to seat on a closed slide with anything resembling a normal smashing in of the magazine, and I'm not a very small guy. These are the same mags, same followers, same gun that that task was easily accomplished with the relatively worn factory springs, so it is definitely the springs. They have been sitting loaded for a few days and I've been meaning to check them to see if they have broken in some.
That said, I have never "topped off" my carry pistol:
1) 15 vs. 16... meh, who cares? If it was 7 vs. 8 or something like that where one round represented a greater percentage of your total, maybe I would.
2) Gives me a spot to put the extra round if the gun is cleared.
3) I can feel a significant difference in how much drag there is on the slide, when there is 15 vs. 14 rounds in the mag. This is due to the extra upward pressure on the slide if it is cycling with a full 15 vs. 14.
It's really hard for me to get that last round in due to the pressure I must exert on the spring, but using either the Springfield loading tool or a general handgun magazine loader I haven't had any issues with it. I load up 16 rounds every time.
If your issue is with 16+1, then I don't know, because I don't top off. But if you're putting 16 rounds into an empty gun, you shouldn't have any issues if the gun and magazine are working correctly.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Fastcast said:
Yeah I have that one coming for sure.
I thought all you guys were crazy the other day when this thread started.I guess being a mostly 1911 shooter I didn't really understand what you were getting at.
The problem was mainly with speed reloads when I had the new mag topped off. The usual "smack" just isn't enough, I had to spend valuable time pushing the mag to get it to lock. Drop one round out and the usual way works fine.
-1 for the big capacity double stacks, I'm a believer now.
Mike1234567
member
The only mags I don't keep at their "advertised" capacity are M&P 14-round. The 14th round is very difficult loading in one mag and the other two won't accept a 14th round at all. Despite what S&W claims these are definitely 13 round mags. All other mags are kept topped off.
JohnKSa, I was wondering this about my Beretta 92FS. I had noticed that if I take a full mag and insert it with a closed slide, empty chamber, it goes in fine. If I chamber a round, top off the mag and try to re-insert it, it is real tough to get in. Not SUPER difficult, but noticeably harder to get it to seat. My question is why it is harder when a round is chambered versus empty? Shouldn't the mag spring be compressing the same either way? I know there is a loaded chamber indicator, does that somehow also put more pressure on the mag? Any info would be great. For now I don't top off the mag.
New member here but have been a longtime reader, it is a great site and great discussion here on THR. Thanks!
New member here but have been a longtime reader, it is a great site and great discussion here on THR. Thanks!
I have a series 80 Gold Cup that won't hold a full 8 round mag. Neither the one that came with it, nor the aftermarket one. I assumed that was normal with the 8-rounders, seeing as I have the grip and arm strength of a chimp, and I can't get it in all the way!
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If the slide is forward, locking a full magazine into the gun should require the same amount of force whether a round is chambered or not. There's nothing I can see that would make a difference in the difficulty of inserting a full mag with the slide forward, chamber empty and the slide forward, chamber loaded.
Just to be sure, I did some experimentation with my 92 and I can't tell the difference.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Nope. There's more to it than just the spring. It's unlikely that Browning and Colt's Dream Team was unaware that the magazine would physically hold 8 rounds. They probably even tried to make it work, and discovered the flaws.
The standard 7-round follower is kept stable on the last two rounds because the rear leg is long enough to allow three spring coils to bear against it. One in the bend at the top corner...one at the mid-point...and one near the bottom. Shortening the follower eliminates the one at the bottom, and the follower pitches forward on the last round. It not only offers a good chance for a misfeed, it can even become jammed against the frame and lock the gun up...or lock the magazine in the gun, making a fast change impossible. Neither does it provide positive slidestop lug engagement to lock the slide on empty.
Several reasons why they settled on 7 rounds. The main one being reliability...and that means more than just feed reliability.
I've never downloaded.
Only recently I noticed that my AR has trouble seating a fully loaded PMAG, I guess I never noticed at the range because the rules limit the number of rounds in a magazine. Those PMAGS are pretty hard to load to 30 anyway, so in that one 29 works just fine. It "can" be forced, but in a stressful situation you'd not want to have trouble seating a magazine. All of my pistols take a full magazine without issues, some better than others.
All of my HK's mount with the same force, full or empty, the 1911's require a more forceful seating and I've not paid a lot of attention to the others.
Only recently I noticed that my AR has trouble seating a fully loaded PMAG, I guess I never noticed at the range because the rules limit the number of rounds in a magazine. Those PMAGS are pretty hard to load to 30 anyway, so in that one 29 works just fine. It "can" be forced, but in a stressful situation you'd not want to have trouble seating a magazine. All of my pistols take a full magazine without issues, some better than others.
All of my HK's mount with the same force, full or empty, the 1911's require a more forceful seating and I've not paid a lot of attention to the others.
igousigloo
Member
I think that some of the drills at the range are made to make you find problems like this. I would never have found this because the rounds in the magazine were enough for me. When i load the magazine I have to force the last round in and then smack the magazine on the heel of my hand to seat the last round. But I never tried to seat it in the gun with a closed cylinder. I tried it with an eight round magazine for a full sized 1911 and did not have a problem. I will just live with six in the mag and one in the cyl. A tactical reload is just a range drill anyway. All the people that I have talked to that were in a shooting situation shot at least one empty click before they knew they were empty.
JohnKSa, thanks for the response. Based on your experiment I went and experimented with mine again. I have noticed that one mag is tougher than the other (the one I keep full with 15 versus the one that sits in the gun with only 14) but both are easier than last time I checked. I'll just assume it was due to (relatively) new mags and now I have a few more rounds through it they are easier to push in. Next time at the range I will try topping off the mag and checking to see it doesn't cause any cycling issues. I doubt it will but just to be safe. Thanks again for the info.
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