Trading for a "Colt"

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cortez kid

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I've been offered a straight trade, a Colt 3rd gen BP for a Yugo SKS. I've got 5 SKS's, but the Yugo is the only one(Yugo) I have. I dearly want a BP pistol and have been jonesing for a ROA. My problem is that I keep hearing that the 3rd gen is not a true Colt(Conn. made). I don't want a Colt wanna be. I've only got $90 in the sks, so I'm not worried about losing out value wise. It's just that, as I say, it's the only Yugo in the collection right now and I don't see me getting another for a while. I have not seen the gun yet, but I'm assuming normal wear. The guy's a gun enthusiat and wants an SKS to play with. Need some input. What say the group?
Thanx.
kid
 
Colt wanna bes? No. Great guns. I have two. Can they be "lettered"? Depends on who you ask. Doesn't matter to me, but it does to some.

Check this out:
COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters located in West Hartford, CT.
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974 to 1976. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978 to 1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.
The Colt Custom Shop also produced a limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory.

The "C" Series 2nd gen.s

COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. : "C" SERIES These Colt percussion revolvers were reintroduced in 1971 (1851 Navy) and 1974 (3rd Model Dragoon). Both models were discontinued in late 1976 (no reference is made to them in either the 1977 Colt Catalog or Colt Price List). The 1851 Navy and Third Model Dragoon were the only models to be produced in both the "C" Series and "F" Series configurations. While the fit and finish of both series is of the highest quality, the difference is unmistakable. The "C" Series has a beautiful bright "Royal Blue" finish while the "F" Series has a more durable dark "Colt Blue" finish. Another distinguishing feature is the serial number range (4201 to 25099 for the "C" Series 1851 Navy and 20901 to 25099 for the "C" Series Third Model Dragoon).

The "F" Series

COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. : "F" SERIES Production of these revolvers began in November 1978 with the 1860 Army and continued with the release of the various models described below until all production ceased in November 1982. Special Edition and Limited Edition models continued to be issued from the Colt Custom Shop inventory through the mid-1990s. Rumors persist, even at this late date, that a few in-the-white specimens are still hidden away at Colt´s. "F" Series revolvers were produced with a durable dark "Colt Blue" finish while the "C" Series finish is a more lustrous "Royal Blue."


COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO. Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002.
All 3rd Generation Colt black powder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Black powder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the back strap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Black powder Arms Company – the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Black powder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

Another rumor heard is that Colt started production of the C Series with the next in line s/n from the old 1851 Colt Navy
S/N's.....Not so. I believe where that rumor got started is when there were a few 5 digit Dragoons inadvertently made with in original Dragoon S/N range. These are "F" series.
 
To be honest, I'm not sure. I'll check it for tightness and operation. I think I can be a good enough judge on condition. Like I said, I don't have too much in the Yugo. I'm excited about it being a Colt. Had to sell both my Python and Trooper for some cash(should have sold my testicles first). All I have left is my 1917 and will shove it up my butt and jump into a vulcano before I let that one go. So I think I'm primed for the deal. I'll keep you informed on model and condition. Thanx.
kid
 
Got it today. It's marked USMR. It has a roll imprint on the cylinder W.I.Ormsby. I don't see any numbers on it yet. Ok, I know nothing about this gun. Haven't been able to talk to the guy I got it from. His wife brought it to me. I'll see him later as we both work for the same company. 1. I can get the wedge out, how do I get the cylinder out. 2 I've noticed a slight tightness on the trigger pull on the "5th" charge. Same every time it goes around. 3. Can I get a manual for it. Don't have picture taking abilities right now, wish I did. Anyway, I'd appreciate any help. Thanx.
kid
 
Hi CK,

This will be exciting for you!

If you cannot post pics then maybe a description and measurements would enable us to share a bit of the thrill with you.

USMR could indicated that it may be a Walker or a Draggy. How long overall is the Gun and any distinguishing features on it? How long is the barrel from the muzzle to the face of the cylinder?

Good one mate - enjoy

Aye

Tony
 
I agree about the 1917. Coolest revolver, ever. Mine's the S&W,and I agree with the whole volcano thing.Congrats on the newish Colt.Pics?
 
Another rumor heard is that Colt started production of the C Series with the next in line s/n from the old 1851 Colt Navy
S/N's.....Not so. I believe where that rumor got started is when there were a few 5 digit Dragoons inadvertently made with in original Dragoon S/N range. These are "F" series.

Actually, it's fact.

The first C series 51 Navy was SN4201. The last '51 Navy with the square back trigger guard (a 2nd model) was SN 4200.

The rest of the second generation models had serial numbers starting a little higher that the last 1st Generation model SNs. 1860 Armies ended at 200100, 2nd Gens started at 201000. Baby Dragoon ended at 14000; 2nd Gen Baby Dragoon started at 16000. SNs started a little higher than originals so there would be no mistaking that they were 2nd Gens

It was the Walker that had 245 made with 5 digit serial numbers. All of the Dragoons had 5 digit SNs.
 
Where do I find the serial number? Figured out how to remove cylinder. I haven't found the serial number. The barrel assembly and the pin(rod, thingy) the cylinder rotates on both have a 20 stamped on them. I think it must be an assembly number. Also, how do you remove the grips. Is this where I would find the serial #. Great gun, but way different than my other revolvers. The barrel is 7"
kid
 
The Grips are very precisely assembled so go easy.
1. Loosen the two Back Strap Screws on each side of the Hammer a few turns per screw.
2. Remove the Bottom Screw of the Back Strap then proceed removing the top screws.
3. When installing the grips start the Back Strap Screws, then the bottom screw. As one screw gets snug go to the next and so on until the grips are seated and screws are tight.
 
Serial numbers of 3rd Generation (Signature Series) Colts are stamped on the bottom of the frame, barrel and trigger guard, bottom of the grip frame, side of the cylinder, the arbor (rod thingy), the loading lever, and the wedge.

Here's a picture of the serial number on the frame, barrel & triggerguard for reference:
serialnumbersloc.jpg

You have to remove the backstrap (3 screws) to get the one piece grips off.

Is there a Sam Colt signature engraved on the backstrap?

A picture would be nice.
 
I'm starting to get nervous. No numbers anywhere so far. No signature. It has Address Sam Colt New York City on the top block area. Also has Colt's Patent on the cylinder. Also found another 20 on the brass frame.
kid
 
With USMR (United States Mounted Rifles) on the cylinder should make it a Walker or Dragoon. A 7.5 inch barrel should make it a Dragoon. Does it look like this one?
3rddrg01.jpg

This is a 3rd Model Dragoon, note the round trigger guard. 1st and 2nd Models had a square back trigger guard.

Do you have a latch on the end of the loading lever? Does it say "Black Powder Only" on the barrel
 
Well, it sounds like a 1st or 2nd model Dragoon. The notches on the cylinder that lock it in place, are they rectangular slots or oval slots? On the left side of the main frame does it have "Colts Patent" stamped on it? Does it have numbers like McGees post #12?
 
There are no other marks on it, other than the ones I talked about. The gun dosen't look refinished, so I don't think any numbers were polished off. It has oval notches on the cylinder. The Colts Patent is on the cylinder along with the Ogilvy roll mark. ADDRESS SAM L COLT NEW-YORK CITY on top of block. The L is smaller and is close and upper next to SAM. I didn't take the trigger guard off to look for a serial, but I didn't think I would find one there, plus the fact that I don't want to start getting into trouble. Also, didn't older guns not have a serial number on them? STUMPED, but loving it. It wouldn't kill me to find out it was an Italian(I R 1 2). I'm also not thinking it's Capt Walkers missing gun. Would be nice to be a LITTLE something special.
kid
 
I've been offered a straight trade, a Colt 3rd gen BP for a Yugo SKS.

Without a visible serial number, it doesn't sound like it's a licensed Colt at all but rather an unmarked ASM (Armi San Marco) or another clone.
Sorry, but I wouldn't complete the trade.
 
It has oval notches on the cylinder. The Colts Patent is on the cylinder along with the Ogilvy roll mark. ADDRESS SAM L COLT NEW-YORK CITY on top of block. The L is smaller and is close and upper next to SAM.

Oval notches and the square back trigger guard (Dragoon trigger guard) make it a 1st Model Colt Dragoon.

The lack of serial numbers is a mystery. The originals had serial #'s on everything. The 2nd and 3rd gens are the same. Most Italian guns have the #'s on the bottom of the frame and barrel lug.

I'm 'guessing' it's a defarbed Italian revolver. I recall, and other may confirm that ASM had the 'Colt" address on the top of the barrel. It sounds like a nice piece.

Before you attempt to completely strip it by sure and have the proper fitting screwdrivers. They should be 'hollow ground' bits that fit the complete width of the screw head. You well need three different sizes. Read these two links, the revolver is a different model but it's the same parts function wise.

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf

If you get stuck on anything you can PM me. Good luck.
 
Without a visible serial number, it doesn't sound like it's a licensed Colt at all but rather an unmarked ASM (Armi San Marco) or another clone.
Sorry, but I wouldn't complete the trade.

I would trade a $90 SKS for any brand 1st Model Dragoon. I'm thinking it's a ASM also. A Yugo SKS is worth what, $250 at the most, I don't keep up on SKS prices. The two ASM's I have are OK guns, a Police pocket and a NMA buffalo hunter. I think a ASM Dragoon is a 200-250 revolver, possibly more if it's been nicely defrabed.

edit
Current blue book for the ASM 1st Model Dragoon, .44, color case hardened frame, loading lever and hammer, Silver plated backstrap and trigger guard.
100% $295 98% $260 90% $195
 
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I know the value of a Yugo SKS isn't much different than an ASM. The Yugo's are selling for around $275 - $375 on Gunbroker.
But there doesn't seem to be a meeting of the minds on what the item is, and the possibility of there being other issues with an ASM revolver that cortez kid isn't aware of.
 
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OK, what kind of trouble did I get myself into? And why did Colt let someone get something on the market trying to defraud without a fight? A defrab? Like I said, I can live with a repro, but now I hear ASM is what, junk. My SKS wasn't. I may have to talk with this guy.
kid
 
But there doesn't seem to be a meeting of the minds on what the item is, and the possibility of there being other issues with an ASM revolver that cortez kid isn't aware of.

ASM went out of business about 7 years ago, so getting repair parts is next to impossible.

One thing is for sure. This is not a Sig Series or 3rd Gen Colt.
 
ASM made some repro.'s with the New York address while leaving off their own maker's marks.
No one defarbed it except the manufacturer.
Some ASM guns were also known for having soft internal parts so their replacement may or may not be necessary much sooner than normal.
It depends on the individual gun.
On the other hand your Yugo is a known quantity.
So you're rolling the dice and taking a risky gamble! :rolleyes:
 
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