Train with what you carry. But what about +P loads?

[Chargedm90]

Hey guys, Got a new M&P 9mm Pro recently. Love it.

I plan on carrying it at some point, and I figured that for the best accuracy in a critical situation, I should be plinking and practicing with the same thing I would carry. I plan on feeding this thing a lot of ammo, I've already fed it 400 rounds in 3 days lol. I expect to get pretty in tune with this thing over time.

I obviously want to carry a hot and heavy defense load, and the most popular ones I see are 124 grain, +P pressure.

But unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be bulk 124g +P ammo at a reasonable price... Does anyone sell any?

Does everyone else just train with the standard 115 ball? The 115 target loads I've put through it are a pooch in my hands. So I'm not afraid of a tad more recoil. I doubt it will come anywhere near .40 S&W and I could handle that fine.

I came across the Bulk Win 9mm NATO rounds, but those aren't quite up to +P pressures. What do you guys think of those?

Someday I'll start reloading, probably within a year or so, Ironically I've seen some people cannot find current load data for +P 9mm loads.... Does anyone reload to +P pressures???

 

[wally]

While its near impossible to argue with the theory of "train with what you carry", in practice its impractical unless money is no object. Even when taxpayers are footing the bill "training" ammo is used.

I practice with a 9mm Shield and carry one in .40S&W. Since the only two people I know that have fired a gun in a defensive situation both reported they don't even remember hearing the shot, they were so focused (tunnel vision) on the threat, I doubt a minor difference in recoil will be noticed either.

Just verify your practice ammo has the same POA/POI as your carry ammo and practice as much as you can.

 

[shotgunjoel]

I'd call the Winchester 9mm NATO +P pressures, at least close enough to be more similar to your carry ammo than 115gr WWB. Also, handloading would allow you to make +P loads for less than you could buy 115gr WWB.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I typically shoot up my carry ammo every few months and replace it from my reserves. Practicing now and then with what you carry is s good thing. I can't afford to shoot Speer or hornady ammo all the time though.

 

[GRIZ22]

I am not a big fan of +P more so in autoloaders. Autoloaders are designed to operate in a certain pressure band. I do use +P in k frame and larger 38s. If you look at the numbers you are gaining very little if anything from a +P in a 9mm. 100 fps is not a lot in a round already doing 1100 fps plus. If I felt I really needed that extra velocity I'd just carry a 357 SIG.

However if +P does something for you training with cheaper std pressure loads is not going to really make any difference as long as the point of impact is very close if not spot on.

 

[Chargedm90]

What happens to autoloaders when you use high powered ammunition?

Obviously low power wont cycle properly, but I cant really think of what would stop a high powered charge from cycling the action?

 

[Ironicaintit]

What happens to autoloaders when you use high powered ammunition?

Unnecessarily battering the action! Practice with them "full tilt boogy" all the time, and you could be adversely affecting the reliability of your equipment.
Thats the theory.
That effect can be mitigated by the use of a heavier recoil spring, i would think.

I practice with the same type of loads I carry for defense. Both are zinging out there pushing the 1300 FPS mark. (115 grain)

As far as FPS is concerned; what exactly constitutes a +P load?

 

[guyfromohio]

I practice with the cheap stuff, but I test a box of carry ammo in the gun before I begin carrying it.

 

[Ironicaintit]

However if +P does something for you training with cheaper std pressure loads is not going to really make any difference as long as the point of impact is very close if not spot on.

I may be wrong, but i have a theory about this.
I think how and what you practice with, should be as close to identical as possible, with what you carry for defense.
Point of impact should of course be the same, everybody acknowledges that.
But I think the recoil impulse should be equivalent as well!

Multiple, consecutive discharges are a very real and likely possibility, if/when your sidearm must be used in a defensive manner.
So, i include that in my practice.

Sorry, i cant stay away from car analogies....
You cant practice with a V6, then go to the race with a V8 and expect the chassis to act the same way.
Stomp on the gas and expect the situation to go sideways!

 

[GRIZ22]

Ironicaintit, you are correct in theory but I think it makes little if any difference in practice. I opine youre overthinking this. Your recoil energy may go up a pound or two using +P vs std pressure loads. I dont think 99% of shooter's will notice this difference.

I've been a firearms instructor (LE and military) for nearly 40 years. I've observed that muzzle blast and flash bothers more shooters than recoil. You will usually get more muzzle blast and flash with +P than std loads. A lot of people overlook these factors when choosing carry ammo. Many don't have a low or reduced light range to practice on.

+P 9mm ammo I've chronoed gives at best 150 fps more velocity than std. Usually it's more like 100 fps. As I said not a lot. I've seen tests conducted by ammo manufacturers which showed no real gain in expansion or penetration of their +P compared to std. So the only thing you gain with a lot of +P is a bit more recoil and more flash and blast. End result is no gain.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Most 9mm today, at least the ones who want military contracts are designed to shoot NATO ammo.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Isn't Speer Lawman ammo loaded up to duty-ammo levels? As others have suggested Winchester NATO ball is on the hot side, too. Underwood has some pretty reasonable prices on hotter loads. Maybe not cheap enough to use for everything but a lot of bang for the buck.

 

[ku4hx]

My wife and I always train, practice and plink with the ballistic twin of what we carry ... no reason not to. I do load premium JHP (Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Silvertip and Hornady XTP) but we don't go to the range with them hardly ever.

What we shoot has the same ballistics of Premium ammunition with Berry's or X-Treme's plated 124 grain bullets. Actually I can do it with my home-brew cast bullets too but I've getting out of the casting hobby in deference to plated pellets.

The guns don't know the difference, neither do we and on the paper they strike just where they should.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Another note; I usually only use +p ammo in a shorter barreled gun like my XDs. I'm concerned about a lack of speed inhibiting expansion out of the short barrel since regular 45's aren't real fast to begin with.

In a full size gun, +p ammo is not really needed, as a 4 or 5" barrel will likely give you all the speed you need. But, if it floats your boat, then carry on. As far as warm practice ammo, I think as suggested already, the Speer Lawman stuff is more on par with carry ammo. I have never found a real good price on +p hollow points.

 

[BSA1]

As already commented on semi-autos have a narrow range of power for them to function as designed whereas magnum revolvers have a very wide power range for their ammunition.

In days of long ago reliabile expansion was attempted by pushing hollow points as fast as practical which was hard on guns (and the shooter). With advances in bullet design speed is much less important.

Pay a visit to Youtube. There are a lot of videos of ammo tests. Among the better ones are the ones done by Shooting The Bull (ammo quest).

 

[SFsc616171]

None of my firearms are of the 'plus p' generation, and i do just fine.

Since the 115 grain was mentioned, I shoot the Remington L9MM1/MM3 series.
The rounds have been around since before the '80's, and are accurate, and function fine in mine.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Ironicaintit, you are correct in theory but I think it makes little if any difference in practice. I opine youre overthinking this. Your recoil energy may go up a pound or two using +P vs std pressure loads. I dont think 99% of shooter's will notice this difference.

I do have a tendency to overthink things. (Or not think enough...i dunno, have to think about it)
I totally understand what you're saying. Close is close, and wont likely be noticed.
I had in mind though, more like a person who practices with a 115 gr "target" load, and then carries a 124 gr "hot" load.
The two are going to act differently, and that wouldnt be a wise way to practice.

 

[Sam1911]

Whether you need +P or not for defense is up to you, but you do want good expanding bullets and that means high ammo costs. Most of us can't afford 5,000 or whatever super premium JHP +Ps each year for practice. Buying bulk FMJ (or reloading -- DUH!) makes a reasonable amount of practice possible.

As long as the point of impact is the same (using the same bullet weight will usually take care of that) and you aren't shooting total powder puff loads in practice, trigger time is trigger time. The important thing is to get as much good practice in as possible. The small difference you might feel at the range with slightly more powerful ammo won't be a factor when your arteries are pumping 97% adrenaline because you think you're about to kill or die.

It won't be the difference between a wimpy V6 and a roaring V8 making you spin out and wreck. More like a V6 with cloth seats vs. a V8 with leather.

 

[Glock Doctor]

Frankly, I consider the rationale to, 'PRACTICE WITH WHAT YOU CARRY' to be a wonderful internet gun forum myth; and I strongly suspect that I've done a lot more pistol shooting than most of the people I come across on the net.

This said: With the possible exception of certain NATO 9mm, 'machine gun ammo', I consider all 9 x 19mm pistol ammo to be ridiculously easy to control. A few years ago, with a G-19 in my hands, I ran through 178 rounds in less than 7 minutes; and it was very easy on my body, and very accurate to shoot! At one point I ran low on loaded magazines; and I grabbed one of the carry mags off my belt. It was loaded with Federal Premium, +P+ cartridges; and, except for being a little louder, I didn't notice any real difference in either muzzle rise or recoil.

I think you're correct that a lot of what's presently being sold, commercially, as 9mm NATO ammunition isn't really the same thing as, say, the IMI or Remington, 'Military Contract', or Hirtenberger Patronen ammo that's used by various police and military forces.

Whenever I carry 9 x 19mm I tend to be acutely aware that I'd better keep my groups as tight as possible, and be able to hit exactly where I aim. I don't really care what bullet I'm firing; as long as they're, 'going in there' I'm happy.

 

[entropy]

I practice with the cheap stuff, but I test a box of carry ammo in the gun before I begin carrying it.

Bingo! We have a winner!

 

[Delmar]

Rather than being overly concerned about buying plus P ammo, might be better off practicing double taps-two decent bullets put out more energy than one slightly more powerful one.

 

[Mainsail]

I typically shoot up my carry ammo every few months and replace it from my reserves. Practicing now and then with what you carry is s good thing. I can't afford to shoot Speer or hornady ammo all the time though.

+1

I will typically draw and fire my carry pistol when I get to the range, shooting all the SD ammo in the gun. I want to know that it would have operated properly had I needed it. That means no manipulation- unloading or press-check- just draw and fire on the target.

Then I'll reload the magazine with practice ammo and proceed from there.

 

[mgmorden]

Regardless of what you carry, you'll fare a LOT better shooting 200 rounds per month of weaker target ammo than shooting 50 rounds every other month of high powered defensive ammo.

Whatever lets you practice more is better than worrying about it being the same load.

If you get really obsessive about it, learn to handload. You can handload +P ammo for much cheaper than you can buy factory plinking ammo (the only cost difference is more powder).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

This is why everyone should handload. Develop a cast bullet load that matches your carry load and use that for practice.

 

[Drail]

My simple solution to this "problem" is to practice with AND carry standard pressure loads. If you place the round where it needs to go, it doesn't matter if it's "+P" or not. If you cannot, then it still won't matter. A peripheral non center of mass hit with "+P" isn't going to stop the bad guy. Find a load you can hit consistently with and stop worrying about the whole "+P" nonsense. A person with just a .22 Ruger pistol who can make head shots consistently is far more of a threat to a bad guy than a guy with a whole magazine full of "+P" loads who sprays and prays but never really "connects".