Trapdoor Advice Needed

[TheFlynn01]

Hey there folks!

I want to get a 1884 Trapdoor, I have a Krag and love it and felt it would be alot of fun to get a old trapdoor. I see there are reproductions, but from what I have heard at my LGS.. a decent original is better than the Italian reproductions.

I am not sure if that is true or not, but I would love advice from folks who have one, the other, or both.

What should I look for when wanting to get a used trapdoor, things that are dead give away of a bad rifle.

The purpose of this rifle will be for recreation, shooting and reloading and casting fun. A lot of adds on GB claim to have "Great Bore" and such... but would make a "great" bore vs a "poor" one on these rifles? The only thing I could think of would be to watch for wallowing out from the ramrod cleaning tool..

Thanks for reading, and I appreciate any advice anyone could give!

 

[Chief TC]

Hey there folks!

I want to get a 1884 Trapdoor, I have a Krag and love it and felt it would be alot of fun to get a old trapdoor. I see there are reproductions, but from what I have heard at my LGS.. a decent original is better than the Italian reproductions.

I am not sure if that is true or not, but I would love advice from folks who have one, the other, or both.

What should I look for when wanting to get a used trapdoor, things that are dead give away of a bad rifle.

The purpose of this rifle will be for recreation, shooting and reloading and casting fun. A lot of adds on GB claim to have "Great Bore" and such... but would make a "great" bore vs a "poor" one on these rifles? The only thing I could think of would be to watch for wallowing out from the ramrod cleaning tool..

Thanks for reading, and I appreciate any advice anyone could give!

I have an 1888 TD and I love it!! So fun to shoot but it can take awhile to get them in shape. If you don't really know much about these rifles and BP, then I recommend you get Pat and Spence Wolf's book. I have shot smokeless TD loads but it functions best with BP. I think the key thing is to see if the rifling is strong and the action works well. A pitted and dark bore does not mean it will not shoot well. Mine has lots of pitting and I just got 2nd in a competition 200-500yds with 25 of 28 hits on silhouettes. I have shot factory TD smokeless loads and smokeless reloads but original BP load with 500gr bullets makes my TD really shine. There are enough good examples out there to buy that you don't need to buy a reproduction IMHO.

 

[TheFlynn01]

I have an 1888 TD and I love it!! So fun to shoot but it can take awhile to get them in shape. If you don't really know much about these rifles and BP, then I recommend you get Pat and Spence Wolf's book. I have shot smokeless TD loads but it functions best with BP. I think the key thing is to see if the rifling is strong and the action works well. A pitted and dark bore does not mean it will not shoot well. Mine has lots of pitting and I just got 2nd in a competition 200-500yds with 25 of 28 hits on silhouettes. I have shot factory TD smokeless loads and smokeless reloads but original BP load with 500gr bullets makes my TD really shine. There are enough good examples out there to buy that you don't need to buy a reproduction IMHO.

Thats good to hear. Anyone I have spoke to about these rifles say that they are plenty fun to shoot! I am excited at the idea of making some BP rounds for them, I got to do a bit of blackpowder stuff when I was real young with a flint lock my friends dad owned, and it was sure neat. Making a BP cartage just seems super cool. I will look for that book! I primarily reload for smokeless but I am sure with a bit of reading I could get some BP stuff made up.

You mentioned the rifling, looking for it to be strong, not to sound dumb, but anything I should really look for in rifles of that age? I have heard some firearms in the 19th century had much more shallow rifling than one might expect to find today. I just ask, as I dont want to turn my nose up at something thinking it is 'bad' when I simply can not recognize 'good' haha.

Would be good to find some picture examples of good bores, but my googling has found nothing.

 

[.455_Hunter]

The three Trapdoors I own have all fortunately been watched over by the Good Cleaning Fairies, otherwise known as the Army NCO Corps. Even my .50-70, a grizzled veteran of the west on the exterior, has a spotless bore.

A few points to consider:

-Be alert for excessively floppy breach blocks when open, or blocks that "move" when closed and latched.

-Avoid examples that were dry fired by Timmy and the gang back in the day playing Cowboys and Indians. They will have damaged hammers and peened blocks around where the firing pin protrudes.

-Even great bores will have more machining marks than we are used to in modern arms.

-Firing pins are frequently found to be broken, but are available and easily replaced.

-There are enough "good" examples on the market that you don't need to settle for something that "Came From Bubba's Basement" in terms of sporterizing or just general mauling.

 

[TheFlynn01]

The three Trapdoors I own have all fortunately been watched over by the Good Cleaning Fairies, otherwise known as the Army NCO Corps. Even my .50-70, a grizzled veteran of the west on the exterior, has a spotless bore.

A few points to consider:

-Be alert for excessively floppy breach blocks when open, or blocks that "move" when closed and latched.

-Avoid examples that were dry fired by Timmy and gang back in the day playing Cowboys and Indians. They will have damaged hammers and peened blocks around where the firing pin protrudes.

-Even great bores will have more machining marks than we are used to in modern arms.

-Firing pins are frequently found to be broken, but are available and easily replaced.

-There are enough "good" examples on the market that you don't need to settle for something that "Came From Bubba's Basement" in terms of sporterizing or just general mauling.

Thank you! Sounds advice and I appreciate it! Ill be sure to check out the ones I am looking at. I want to try and get something I can have fun with and take care of. I dont need Custer's special rifle. Just something I can enjoy.


How can I tell if the firing pen is broken, the end snapped off, or some other tell?

 

[Jim Watson]

I knew a guy who had a Gemmer style Trapdoor. That is, a Trapdoor barreled action stocked like a Gemmer or Hawken. People have been sporterizing military surplus for a long time.

ETA Looks like Gemmer put on an octagon barrel, too.

I thought Custer had a Rolling Block.

 

[TheFlynn01]

I knew a guy who had a Gemmer style Trapdoor. That is, a Trapdoor barreled action stocked like a Gemmer or Hawken. People have been sporterizing military surplus for a long time.

I thought Custer had a Rolling Block.

Never heard of that, sounds interesting!

He might have, just a bit of a joke

 

[Chief TC]

Strong rifling means you can see and feel the grooves. If I look down my bore, I can see the 3 grooves down the barrel even though there is pitting. I can put my pinky in the muzzle and I can feel the three grooves and they terminate at the muzzle which means it should have decent accuracy. The problem often encountered is many times the people selling them don't know anything about them and/or never shot them, or cleaned them. Obviously it is more difficult to determine bore condition when it has not been cleaned properly. If you buy online, you could ask for bore pics and if it is dirty, ask them to scrub it a bit so you can see the rifling better. Even when you finally get it, you need to clean it like Wolf's book says and start playing with BP loads and OAL of the cartridge before you know what you got. That is unless a BP shooter who has it in shape that sold it to you. I swore I thought my rifle was junk after a month or so, but I kept working at it trying all kinds of things believing if I found the right combo, it could at least shoot decently at 200. I got it to be competitive. Also, bullets - I love Bear Creek Supply bullets. They make 500gr bullets in 45-70 and you can get them from .458-.462 depending on what you need. Slugging the bore will help you determine bullet diameter but you still have to play with it to see what shoots best. Good luck! Hope you find a nice specimen. Guns International usually has quality guns for sale but you pay more than Gun Broker usually but everything I have purchased there was as advertised and people are always willing to talk to you about the gun and do more pics as requested. In general, I know the 1884 and 1888 version seem to average about $1500 for a good looking and working rifle. Also, really possible to find one that is original and not too beat up (for a 150 year old combat rifle).

 

[TheFlynn01]

Strong rifling means you can see and feel the grooves. If I look down my bore, I can see the 3 grooves down the barrel even though there is pitting. I can put my pinky in the muzzle and I can feel the three grooves and they terminate at the muzzle which means it should have decent accuracy. The problem often encountered is many times the people selling them don't know anything about them and/or never shot them, or cleaned them. Obviously it is more difficult to determine bore condition when it has not been cleaned properly. If you buy online, you could ask for bore pics and if it is dirty, ask them to scrub it a bit so you can see the rifling better. Even when you finally get it, you need to clean it like Wolf's book says and start playing with BP loads and OAL of the cartridge before you know what you got. That is unless a BP shooter who has it in shape that sold it to you. I swore I thought my rifle was junk after a month or so, but I kept working at it trying all kinds of things believing if I found the right combo, it could at least shoot decently at 200. I got it to be competitive. Also, bullets - I love Bear Creek Supply bullets. They make 500gr bullets in 45-70 and you can get them from .458-.462 depending on what you need. Slugging the bore will help you determine bullet diameter but you still have to play with it to see what shoots best. Good luck! Hope you find a nice specimen. Guns International usually has quality guns for sale but you pay more than Gun Broker usually but everything I have purchased there was as advertised and people are always willing to talk to you about the gun and do more pics as requested. In general, I know the 1884 and 1888 version seem to average about $1500 for a good looking and working rifle. Also, really possible to find one that is original and not too beat up (for a 150 year old combat rifle).

Good to know. Got the book on order! So that will help once I find one. Even if it takes me a while, books never complain much haha. Have you ever had to make repairs? I see firing pins seem to have a bit of issue. Any place we can good reproduction, or NOS?

 

[Chief TC]

Good to know. Got the book on order! So that will help once I find one. Even if it takes me a while, books never complain much haha. Have you ever had to make repairs? I see firing pins seem to have a bit of issue. Any place we can good reproduction, or NOS?

Luckily, I haven't had any parts fail but I actually use it and will fire many rounds through it, so I would think a firing pin would fail at least. I think Numrich is kind of the go to place for old gun parts. Either original or repro. A lot of people that have these never figured out how to use the sights and did not know how to make accurate loads for them, so they just sat in the closets. So most likely, any rifle you find will be in good working order if a kid didn't get ahold of it to use a toy.

 

[.455_Hunter]

How can I tell if the firing pen is broken, the end snapped off, or some other tell?

The first test is if the rounded tip protrudes from the breech face when pressed forward using something to mimic the hammer nose (back end of a ball point pen?). A good pin will slide as a unit, with a broken one will either be jammed or exhibit independent movement of the separated front and rear pieces. The more definitive examination removes the firing using the retention screws on the block. I believe that only the .50-70's had a firing pin spring- all later example were free floating. The final models used an advanced aluminum bronze alloy pin that is quite distinctive looking. All of the .45-70 pins should interchange.

 

[TheFlynn01]

Luckily, I haven't had any parts fail but I actually use it and will fire many rounds through it, so I would think a firing pin would fail at least. I think Numrich is kind of the go to place for old gun parts. Either original or repro. A lot of people that have these never figured out how to use the sights and did not know how to make accurate loads for them, so they just sat in the closets. So most likely, any rifle you find will be in good working order if a kid didn't get ahold of it to use a toy.

Well that makes things a little easier. I will just keep an eye out for obvious issues. how bad is stock cracking on these?

The first test is if the rounded tip protrudes from the breech face when pressed forward using something to mimic the hammer nose (back end of a ball point pen?). A good pin will slide as a unit, with a broken one will either be jammed or exhibit independent movement of the separated front and rear pieces. The more definitive examination removes the firing using the retention screws on the block. I believe that only the .50-70's had a firing pin spring- all later example were free floating. The final models used an advanced aluminum bronze alloy pin that is quite distinctive looking. All of the .45-70 pins should interchange.

good to know! I will be sure to bring a pin then just to make sure, but if they are easy enough to replace I might not have to worry too much... so long as the rest of the rifle is in good condition.

 

[Remington1911]

I have one and enjoy it quite a bit. There is quite a bit of "not quite truths" out there around them, shooting them and reloading for them. All I will say is do your own research and make informed choices. If what you choose to do keeps both eyes in your skull and 10 fingers you chose wisely.

Great fun to shoot. Look at the bore, hundred plus years of black powder have not been kind to some of them.

This is mine, and an example of what it will do with my reloads at 200 yards, you are not going to ever get MOA out of them, you will get "minute of indian" pretty easly.

 

[Remington1911]

Hell with it after reading some of the replies, will teach me to read them first.

IMHO unless you want to "experience" old smokey" and how the rifle was made to be shot I see little point in going down the BP road. A great many of the thoughts around black powder and pressure curves is....well misunderstood. Back when I said read everything you can lay your little mitts on, read this as well.

https://sites.google.com/view/44win...ballistics-handloading/pressure-testing?pli=1

I shoot an all lead Missouri 405 bullet and get the above groups on average at 200 yards, this is where my eyes start to let me down. All the reds blend into one blob that far away.

Again IMHO you need to keep the pressures in the teens. Find loads that have CUP pressures listed, the one above was stumbled across during the great shortages using a VV powder. (i would have to check my notes to see what one).

There is something just magical about them. People talk of lever guns as a "you get it or you don't". Well a trapdoor is that cranked up to 11. All the little clicks the rifle makes when you unload a fired case, the sounds as the old brass comes out the back, clicks as you close the "door" the clicks as you pull the hammer back one more click. It is all just so mechanical and I love that.

It will be very different from your Krag.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I have a carbine repro version and it IS a hoot to shoot.
I load 55gr of 2F with a couple cardboard spacers under a 405 soft lead bullet .
The heavier standard rifle load is less of a "hoot" in the light weight carbine...

 

[Chief TC]

Hell with it after reading some of the replies, will teach me to read them first.

IMHO unless you want to "experience" old smokey" and how the rifle was made to be shot I see little point in going down the BP road. A great many of the thoughts around black powder and pressure curves is....well misunderstood. Back when I said read everything you can lay your little mitts on, read this as well.

https://sites.google.com/view/44win...ballistics-handloading/pressure-testing?pli=1

I shoot an all lead Missouri 405 bullet and get the above groups on average at 200 yards, this is where my eyes start to let me down. All the reds blend into one blob that far away.

Again IMHO you need to keep the pressures in the teens. Find loads that have CUP pressures listed, the one above was stumbled across during the great shortages using a VV powder. (i would have to check my notes to see what one).

There is something just magical about them. People talk of lever guns as a "you get it or you don't". Well a trapdoor is that cranked up to 11. All the little clicks the rifle makes when you unload a fired case, the sounds as the old brass comes out the back, clicks as you close the "door" the clicks as you pull the hammer back one more click. It is all just so mechanical and I love that.

It will be very different from your Krag.

I will agree every rifle is different but disagree there is little point going down the BP road. As you said, there is a magical thing about them making them unique and special. I could not get a smokeless load to shoot near as well as BP, especially beyond 200 yards. So there is very much a point to experience BP and compare ALL reloads. My TD can shoot to 600yds on a 30inch gong with its original military sights.

 

[Chief TC]

I have one and enjoy it quite a bit. There is quite a bit of "not quite truths" out there around them, shooting them and reloading for them. All I will say is do your own research and make informed choices. If what you choose to do keeps both eyes in your skull and 10 fingers you chose wisely.

Great fun to shoot. Look at the bore, hundred plus years of black powder have not been kind to some of them.

This is mine, and an example of what it will do with my reloads at 200 yards, you are not going to ever get MOA out of them, you will get "minute of indian" pretty easly.

View attachment 1158899

View attachment 1158900

yep, that is about what you can expect on average for a grouping at 200yds with these rifles.

 

[Remington1911]

I will agree every rifle is different but disagree there is little point going down the BP road. As you said, there is a magical thing about them making them unique and special. I could not get a smokeless load to shoot near as well as BP, especially beyond 200 yards. So there is very much a point to experience BP and compare ALL reloads. My TD can shoot to 600yds on a 30inch gong with its original military sights.

It is up to each person. For me the cleanup after shooting was a pain. The loading of BP is also a pain. Smokeless is just, well better. But I do get it, I had a car you had to hand crank.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I've a friend with a Trapdoor (not sure which model -- it was sporterized by a blind monkey) but I personally have no experience other than wanting a good example one of these days.

I have seen a few nice examples pass through Simpson's in the last year, and would trust their descriptions more than most I've seen on Gun Broker.

https://simpsonltd.com/search-results-page?q=trapdoor

If you do go with GB, check out listings there by Lock Stock and Barrel.

https://lsbauctions.com/

 

[Chief TC]

It is up to each person. For me the cleanup after shooting was a pain. The loading of BP is also a pain. Smokeless is just, well better. But I do get it, I had a car you had to hand crank.

Smokeless is not better. You can’t quantify or prove that except for your rifle, assuming you tried BP. Before I got into BP, I thought it would be more of a pain and too messy as well. But it turns out it is just not true. My BP rifles clean up faster than smokeless. Too many turn cleaning into a sacred ritual. All you need is a ballistol emulsion as a cleaner. My BP load for my TD is the easiest and fastest one to build. Pour powder directly into the case and seat bullet to desired OAL. No crimping and no resizing needed. I think your experiences with BP were not good, so you automatically assume smokeless is better when it is not. Even the BPCR champions will tell you that their smokeless loads can’t compete. Main thing is to let people explore what they think works for them and not assume your experiences are the end all be all.

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

To the point of evaluating mfc. quality / existing cond. Ancestry Guns does a great job of posting very good pics for evaluation purposes. A little pricy, yes I agree but I would pay it for a really good piece to hand down.

 

[Chief TC]

To the point of evaluating mfc. quality. Ancestry Guns does a great job of posting very good pics for evaluation purposes. A little pricy, yes I agree but I would pay it for a really good piece to hand down.

I see they advertise a lot on Guns International and they definitely seek their stuff on the high end. I’ve seen the same things as you but I think they are way too proud of what they have.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

This website has all of the information you need about Trapdoors. https://www.trapdoorcollector.com/index.html

I have one in 45/70 and it is a lot of fun to shoot. The connection to the 7th cavalry is also fun to explain to my relatives who shoot it.

 

[Remington1911]

Smokeless is not better. You can’t quantify or prove that except for your rifle, assuming you tried BP. Before I got into BP, I thought it would be more of a pain and too messy as well. But it turns out it is just not true. My BP rifles clean up faster than smokeless. Too many turn cleaning into a sacred ritual. All you need is a ballistol emulsion as a cleaner. My BP load for my TD is the easiest and fastest one to build. Pour powder directly into the case and seat bullet to desired OAL. No crimping and no resizing needed. I think your experiences with BP were not good, so you automatically assume smokeless is better when it is not. Even the BPCR champions will tell you that their smokeless loads can’t compete. Main thing is to let people explore what they think works for them and not assume your experiences are the end all be all.

If it is not "better" then why are we not still using it?

I enjoy old smoky.......for what it is. I have one cap and ball revolver and enjoy it, I really want a Remington, go figure. Playing Pale Rider is a thing I really want to do, there is no stupid reason to buy another gun. I also bought but did not make BP loads for my trapdoor, after looking into what needed to be done with that I gave it a pass. There are quite a few other rifles out there I want to shoot, the old 11mm german rifles, Martini henry naturally, but during the shortage BP "stuff" was also hard to come by and I have not started looking again as of yet.

There is no doubt it is far more dirty, shoot 20 rounds through an BP revolver will tell you that real quick, almost as quick as a look at your fingers, I will not get into Crisco, yes I am from that era, I think the third gun I shot ever was a BP revolver.

 

[TheFlynn01]

I have one and enjoy it quite a bit. There is quite a bit of "not quite truths" out there around them, shooting them and reloading for them. All I will say is do your own research and make informed choices. If what you choose to do keeps both eyes in your skull and 10 fingers you chose wisely.

Great fun to shoot. Look at the bore, hundred plus years of black powder have not been kind to some of them.

This is mine, and an example of what it will do with my reloads at 200 yards, you are not going to ever get MOA out of them, you will get "minute of indian" pretty easly.

View attachment 1158899

View attachment 1158900

Good looking rifle, I am digging into plenty to research. I plan on keeping all my digits if I can help it! and while it may not be a MOA rifle, that is still plenty good for me, it would put dinner on the table!

Hell with it after reading some of the replies, will teach me to read them first.

IMHO unless you want to "experience" old smokey" and how the rifle was made to be shot I see little point in going down the BP road. A great many of the thoughts around black powder and pressure curves is....well misunderstood. Back when I said read everything you can lay your little mitts on, read this as well.

https://sites.google.com/view/44win...ballistics-handloading/pressure-testing?pli=1

I shoot an all lead Missouri 405 bullet and get the above groups on average at 200 yards, this is where my eyes start to let me down. All the reds blend into one blob that far away.

Again IMHO you need to keep the pressures in the teens. Find loads that have CUP pressures listed, the one above was stumbled across during the great shortages using a VV powder. (i would have to check my notes to see what one).

There is something just magical about them. People talk of lever guns as a "you get it or you don't". Well a trapdoor is that cranked up to 11. All the little clicks the rifle makes when you unload a fired case, the sounds as the old brass comes out the back, clicks as you close the "door" the clicks as you pull the hammer back one more click. It is all just so mechanical and I love that.

It will be very different from your Krag.

Well, I love my lever gun, and I feel I will like the Trapdoor. I enjoy the mechanical process and the whole 'ritual' of it all. Same reason I like manual transmissions haha. I will give the article a good read!

I have a carbine repro version and it IS a hoot to shoot.
I load 55gr of 2F with a couple cardboard spacers under a 405 soft lead bullet .
The heavier standard rifle load is less of a "hoot" in the light weight carbine...

The carbines do look like fun! Those long arms, are very long! I still cant help but enjoy the look of the standard rifle.

A friend has shot a Trapdoor (not sure which model -- it was sporterized by a blind monkey) but I personally have no experience other than wanting a good example one of these days.

I have seen a few nice examples pass through Simpson's in the last year, and would trust their descriptions more than most I've seen on Gun Broker.

https://simpsonltd.com/search-results-page?q=trapdoor

If you do go with GB, check out listings there by Lock Stock and Barrel.

https://lsbauctions.com/

I will be sure to check them both out. Thank you!

To the point of evaluating mfc. quality / existing cond. Ancestry Guns does a great job of posting very good pics for evaluation purposes. A little pricy, yes I agree but I would pay it for a really good piece to hand down.

I will check out Ancestry Guns. I want to find someone reputable. Thank you.

This website has all of the information you need about Trapdoors. https://www.trapdoorcollector.com/index.html

I have one in 45/70 and it is a lot of fun to shoot. The connection to the 7th cavalry is also fun to explain to my relatives who shoot it.

I will check out that site! Seems like a good place to go! It is awesome you could connect it back like that! Gotta love that history!

When looking at the rifles for BP and Smokeless, I will prolly try both. I think it will be interesting to see the differences and what not. I am looking forward to casting those heavy lead lumps!