You use generalities and personal opinion of smokeless just being better. We still do use BP but obviously it made sense to move to smokeless since you don’t have the fouling and can just keep shooting 100s of rounds. BP in trapdoors and sharps rifles is much more than having a smoky experience. There are more factors to try in BP for accuracy than smokeless, the main one being neck tension. Because of all the variables in adjusting BP loads, you can tune one to your rifle better than smokeless load most of the time. So it is worth it doing both BP and smokeless when owning a TD or a buffalo type rifle. It is not just about making smoke.
Trapdoor Advice Needed
- Thread starter TheFlynn01
- Start date
Remington1911
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2022
- Messages
- 1,514
But you do have fouling you do get nasty hands. You also don't need to worry about "air space" in your loads. There is a great many things to think about, and things you need to have (lube, wax, cork) that you don't need to worry about with smokeless.
When you talk about neck tension what (I) read into the bottom line of that is a quest on how accurate you can make it. I see where you are coming from with that. Shooting these old rifles as they are "made to be shot" is also very educational, and fun. If it was not fun there would be no market for cap and ball revolvers. Why would you buy one over a "modern" revolver. Guess if you are a felon you could as it is not really a "gun" in the eyes of the ATF, you can have it brought to your house in the mail in most free states.
What I am doing a very poor job of trying to explain and say is you are not locked into BP when you go this way, this is why I linked the 44-40 article. This is why I said do your own research, read and make your choice.
I think that many people coming into something like an old trapdoor think well that would be cool but I don't want to "mess" with black powder, I am trying to say you don't need to go to black powder to enjoy these old things.
Agreed. There is no need to only use BP and I have seen some folks try to make that argument. I am not one of them. As long as they are trapdoor loads then you can use them. I shoot both myself and encourage folks to try both.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
I load for 45-70 using both Accurate 5744 and Trailboss. Start with the lighter end and work up, I have had no trouble with either.
Remington1911
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2022
- Messages
- 1,514
Are you shooting out of a trapdoor or "modern lever rifle"
I ask this as the pressures I have seen published as well as the numbers I get from quickload (something I suggest if you are running off into the weeds) put the pressures for "typical" loads using traiboss a little higher then I personally am comfortable.
Everything I see says to keep your loads in the teens, I stumbled across a VV load with a published CUP of IIRC 14k. That is what I have come to use with my TD.
At one time again IIRC Remington made factory ammo that had the label "trapdoor safe", I have a box and will shoot a photo if anyone wishes, found it last night looking for 410 ammo to put down an animal that got hit by a car.
There is a HUGE difference between the old trapdoors and the "modern lever" you see talked about in so many loads.
Just keep in mind this rifle is over 100 years old, using tech that was still half a step above muzzle loading flint locks. Be careful.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
I shoot a Trapdoor Carbine mostly with the 5744. I loaded a few with the Trailboss because I already had it for 38 Special cowboy shooting.
tark
Member
Custer's personal rifle was a 50-70 rolling block carbine.
Smokeless is easier to clean and does not rust bores. It is also easier to load accurate rounds because of the many details that must be adhered to when loading B/P rounds. I have found that most of my B/P accuracy problems came down to using the right bullet with lots of grease grooves and using a soft lube. SPG works fine for me. I have found little difference in accuracy between the two powders. My home made rolling block has shot near M.O.A. groups out to 200 yards, with both black powder and smokeless loads.
I find that cleaning up after black is just as easy it is with smokeless and no more time consuming. But with black, it is mandatory. Black is more of a pain when it comes to the fired cases. After firing they should be dropped in a water/ favorite cleaner solution. Everybody has their favorite recipe. They are pretty grungy when they come out of the water.
If the OP isn't experienced in loading black powder rounds, there are books out there that will help you learn. Mike Venturino wrote a good one. If you don't learn the proper way to load black, you will be doomed to disappointment.
TheFlynn01
Member
I am interested in trying BP loads. I enjoy casting and reloading for smokeless, so I think it will be in my wheel house. I ordered the book by Pat Wolf, and I am hoping that will have plenty of good info. I think i will try both types.
The thing I am curious about, as smokeless round for the trapdoor seem to be much lighter... will that cause issue with the powder? Will they need to have a bit of cotton or something in them to act as a patch?
The thing I am curious about, as smokeless round for the trapdoor seem to be much lighter... will that cause issue with the powder? Will they need to have a bit of cotton or something in them to act as a patch?
Jim Watson
Member
I would load 5744 if I could find any, otherwise a medium-fast extruded powder; see what Mr Wolf or Ken Waters says.
I would not load Trail Boss or a ball process powder and I would not put non-gunpowder crap in my shells.
I would not load Trail Boss or a ball process powder and I would not put non-gunpowder crap in my shells.
tark
Member
Smokeless powder has much more energy, "pound for pound" than Black powder. That's why the charges are so much less to get the same velocity with a given bullet weight. As long as you stick to the loading Manuel's instructions, the empty space in the case is not a problem.
It most definitely IS a problem when loading black powder. No empty space allowed. Rule # 1 with black powder is this: Fill the case with all the black powder it will hold, while still leaving enough room to seat the bullet. The powder should be slightly compressed during the seating operation. Black powder is a true explosive, not a propellent like smokeless. It is the weakest true explosive, as far as I know. It's detonation rate is 800 meters per second. By comparison, TNT is 6,940 meters per second. Leaving air space in the loaded case can wreck a gun. I don't know the physics of this but it is a well known phenomenon.
Please don't let any of this scare you off from using Black powder. Rule #1 is easy to follow. There is something very satisfying ( and challenging ) about loading with black. That big white cloud of smoke is a lot of fun as well.
Last edited:
You will find loading data for trapdoor loads with 5744. That is what I use. Always make sure your data is for the trapdoor. There is 45-70 loading data for rifles up to 29000 cup, which is your repros and then over 50000 for Rugers, etc. You may have some unburned powder with 5744 but you can always do a quick wipe if you feel it is necessary. Start with 62gr of Swiss 1.5 for BP and 23gr of 5744 for an RN bullet. Accurate has a reloading spec sheet you can download for free. Again, I recommend the Bear Creek Supply 500gr bullet if you are not casting.
Last edited:
TheFlynn01
Member
Thank you for the heads up. I am excited to try BP once I get the chance. I am going on a bit of a trip to Cody but when I get back ill get things started to see what I can make up.
So Accurate 5744 is good for the trapdoor? I read up on it and it seems like a nice bet. I have head that there are some smokeless blackpowder substitutes. Any info on that end?
As for black powder brands and type. is Swiss a brand, like... IMR, or is it a type, like 5744. If that makes sense!
TheFlynn01
Member
Another side note. I do plan on casting once I get the moulds. However I see talk of the 500g vs 405g bullet. Which one would be more historically correct?
Jim Watson
Member
Swiss is a brand of black powder, made in Switzerland, of all places.
Their No 4 is 1 1/2 Fg on the traditional US scale and is very popular in BPCR; I use it.
Schützen powder is made in Germany.
Goex powder, made in USA has a checkered past. When the DuPont plant blew up, they were going to rebuild, fill outstanding government orders, and shut down. But Gearhart and Owens bought it out and stayed in production. Hodgdon then bought out Gearhart and Owens. Then the plant blew up and Hodgdon wanted out. The facility was picked up by Estes who have been making model rocket motors for years. They are said to have the plant back in operation on government orders with sales Real Soon Now.
.45-70-405 (.45-55-405 for carbines) was the original 1873 load. After the Sandy Hook trials the Army went to 500 grain bullets for better long range performance; it was then thought good tactics to be able to sprinkle the enemy with company volley rifle fire at extreme range.
The .45 2 1/10" Sharps and .45-70 Winchester use the same case but loads were different.
Personally, I would make Swiss loads and 5744 loads for the trapdoor. I am not knocking the potential or use of fake BP but most people seem to think it’s not worth it. I think because it needs a different cleaning regimen and it is not as good as real BP
TheFlynn01
Member
Makes sense. I will have to keep an eye out for both!
and it will be fun to check out the moulds for both. Might be fun to have a 405 and 500. I got room on the shelf and they don’t eat much haha.
have another question for everyone! I got the trapdoor book by Wolf. It has been interesting, he had a little tid-bit on the muzzle, about checking it for wear, by using a 45 ACP. .452 bullet and putting the BASE into the muzzle, if it’s sits on top. It’s good, if it goes down into the bore, I guess it’s worn.
my buddy has 4 very nice trap doors. Nice on the outside, bores look shiny and clean. One is a 78 the rest 84s. Not one of them seemed to pass this test that Mr. Wolf had in his book. Does it hold water to anyone else? I am just curious as those rifles looked very nice, but they seem to swallow up that bullet. Not fall down and rattle off not the barrel, but it just stuck into the top till the nose of the bullet was all that showed.
he found it funny as they all shoot “well” according to him.
and it will be fun to check out the moulds for both. Might be fun to have a 405 and 500. I got room on the shelf and they don’t eat much haha.
have another question for everyone! I got the trapdoor book by Wolf. It has been interesting, he had a little tid-bit on the muzzle, about checking it for wear, by using a 45 ACP. .452 bullet and putting the BASE into the muzzle, if it’s sits on top. It’s good, if it goes down into the bore, I guess it’s worn.
my buddy has 4 very nice trap doors. Nice on the outside, bores look shiny and clean. One is a 78 the rest 84s. Not one of them seemed to pass this test that Mr. Wolf had in his book. Does it hold water to anyone else? I am just curious as those rifles looked very nice, but they seem to swallow up that bullet. Not fall down and rattle off not the barrel, but it just stuck into the top till the nose of the bullet was all that showed.
he found it funny as they all shoot “well” according to him.
The carbine is is a 405 bullet. The did start with a 405 for the 1873 but they switched to 500. If you do end up getting a rifle with the Buffington sights then I do recommend a 500 govt bullet. You can read more about the rifles and sights with the 405 vs the 500 bullets. The key for the 405 is the hollow base. Typically, flat based 405s will not shoot well in trapdoors. 500s don't need to be hollow base to obturate. The bores can be different sizes and you need to slug it and measure to see what size your bore is. However, the key indicator for me on muzzle is how it looks and feels. If you see the grooves terminate at the muzzle and you can feel the grooves with your pinky, then the muzzle is probably fine. I have rifles that don't pass the inverted bullet tests and they are fine. That is not to say muzzle erosion does not exist but sometimes it is not a significant factor in accuracy. As an example, my M1 Garand has a terrible muzzle. The last .25 inches is worn to a smooth bore. By all rights, it should have terrible accuracy but can shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 and holds great accuracy to 500 meters (furthest I've been able to shoot it.
I meant to add if you are going to cast you want to try a lot of bullets to see what shoots best. Let's say the bore is .459 and you may find .461 is the best. Bear creek can do .458 to .462, so you can see what diameter is best before you start casting.
I meant to add if you are going to cast you want to try a lot of bullets to see what shoots best. Let's say the bore is .459 and you may find .461 is the best. Bear creek can do .458 to .462, so you can see what diameter is best before you start casting.
Last edited:
TheFlynn01
Member
Okay that is good to know. I was kinda sad to see that none of them passed. When I get my rifle I will be sure to slug it.
from what I have read, soft lead plug, lube it up, and then lightly hammer it down the bore with a wooden dowel. That sound about right?
I will have to check out Bear Creek and get a few sizes to play with!
it is also interesting that the 500 grain one does not need a hollow base to work. Why is that?
from what I have read, soft lead plug, lube it up, and then lightly hammer it down the bore with a wooden dowel. That sound about right?
I will have to check out Bear Creek and get a few sizes to play with!
it is also interesting that the 500 grain one does not need a hollow base to work. Why is that?
Correct on slugging. Getting the correct measurement is a little difficult. I'm not sure of all the science behind it. Something about once you reach a certain size and mass, the bullet will obturate the bore properly. When the size is too small, then it needs a hollow base to get it to obturate. This is why factory 405gr bullets don't shoot well in many rifles because they are using flat based bullets. And this is not just for trapdoors. My Pedersoli Sharps will allow 405gr FB bullets to tumble and keyhole. I think 405gr in a lever guide gun for 100 yds is fine but not for longer range shooting. The fun of trapdoors is that they are accurate for long ranges when you find the right load.
tark
Member
If you are using black powder and bullets that aren't too hard, the detonation of the black powder will whack the base of the bullet hard enough to expand the slug to grip the grooves correctly. I have gotten good accuracy with bullets that were .002 to .004 thousands undersize. This does not happen with smokeless powder.
If 405 gr. flat base bullets won't shoot accurately in a rifle, the flat base has nothing to do with it. The rifle either has an oversized bore, a damaged crown or something else is wrong. If your Pedersoli keyholes .458 diameter 405 gr. FB bullets...something is seriously wrong with the gun.
Well, a lever gun isn't a trapdoor.... Not sure I agree with this statement....but OK . You probably have more experience with 45-70 lever guns than I do. I've never owned one.
Nothing wrong with my Pedersoli Sharps whatsoever. Shoots the right bullets with exceptional accuracy. If the 405 is not hollow base, some rifles will not shoot them well. This is well known in BP circles. This is why they made the 405s hollow base - to obturate properly. Now maybe you can get them to be acceptable at 100 yards but that means nothing if they don't perform well at other distances. If your gun can shoot FBs well, then good for you but this is certainly not a standard.
Not sure what you mean about lever not being a trapdoor. That is obvious. I am only referring to the fact that these guns shoot the 405s very well up to 100 yards.
tark
Member
Well, maybe we are talking about different bullets so let's clarify. I'm talking about a .458 dia. 405 gr. flat based bullet. doesn't matter if it is jacketed or lead. If your Pedersoli keyholes these, something is wrong. Does it shoot accurately with factory 405 grain bullets? Those are flat based.
I am part of those "BP circles" Been shooting BPCR for decades. I never heard of this. Read again the first paragraph of post #45.
BTW the original 405 gr. lead bullet for the trapdoor was a flat based bullet.
Last edited:
Read Wolf's book on TDs. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Here is an excerpt from the book:
The 405 grain M1873 bullet has the hollow base design required for this bullet to properly obturate to bore size. A FLAT base bullet of this weight and size will fail to seal correctly into the bore in the original 3 groove Springfield barrel--it would have to be groove size, or up to .002" larger to obtain accuracy. Many modern barrels, and even the old Win- chester barrels, have a different barrel design which allows flat base bul- lets to perform well in them. The nose diameter of the 500 grain M1881 bullet is .447" as per the original specifications and is not supposed to be bore ride as with modern bullet designs. This is explained in later sections. Although this bullet has a flat base, it will expand to the correct fit upon firing due to the greater inertia of 500 grains.
405gr bullet was hollow based and those using 405s with BP typically use hollow base bullets. They determined 500s could be flat based and didn't need a hollow base. A Pedersoli will typically not shoot 405s in .458 or .459 well. They do better with heavier bullets and usually .460. This is common knowledge in BP circles. You can find all kinds of info on this throughout the gun forums and Spence Wolf's book. Jacketed and high speeds, my Pedersoli is fine. Trapdoor speeds and lead bullets that are too light or not hollow base shoot terrible. I won 1st place at mid-range buffalo rifle competition - 300 yds to 600 yds. Perfect. Pretty sure my rifle is fine. Every rifle is different and it is common that TDs and Sharps don't shoot 405gr FBs that well. Not sure why you are so convinced that a rifle that can't shoot a 405gr FB bullet has a problem. Bottom line is the bullet and bore need to have elements to have a marriage that works well. If it works for you, great. But that is not the standard.
The 405 grain M1873 bullet has the hollow base design required for this bullet to properly obturate to bore size. A FLAT base bullet of this weight and size will fail to seal correctly into the bore in the original 3 groove Springfield barrel--it would have to be groove size, or up to .002" larger to obtain accuracy. Many modern barrels, and even the old Win- chester barrels, have a different barrel design which allows flat base bul- lets to perform well in them. The nose diameter of the 500 grain M1881 bullet is .447" as per the original specifications and is not supposed to be bore ride as with modern bullet designs. This is explained in later sections. Although this bullet has a flat base, it will expand to the correct fit upon firing due to the greater inertia of 500 grains.
405gr bullet was hollow based and those using 405s with BP typically use hollow base bullets. They determined 500s could be flat based and didn't need a hollow base. A Pedersoli will typically not shoot 405s in .458 or .459 well. They do better with heavier bullets and usually .460. This is common knowledge in BP circles. You can find all kinds of info on this throughout the gun forums and Spence Wolf's book. Jacketed and high speeds, my Pedersoli is fine. Trapdoor speeds and lead bullets that are too light or not hollow base shoot terrible. I won 1st place at mid-range buffalo rifle competition - 300 yds to 600 yds. Perfect. Pretty sure my rifle is fine. Every rifle is different and it is common that TDs and Sharps don't shoot 405gr FBs that well. Not sure why you are so convinced that a rifle that can't shoot a 405gr FB bullet has a problem. Bottom line is the bullet and bore need to have elements to have a marriage that works well. If it works for you, great. But that is not the standard.
tark
Member
I may stand corrected, but I still find it hard to believe that a Pedersoli 45-70 rifle will keyhole properly sized 405 grain flat based bullets. I know two people that have the same rifle as yours. Their rifles shoot all bullet weights accurately, flat based or not. No company will market any rifle that can't fire factory ammo with good accuracy. I know of no currently available factory ammunition that is loaded with hollow based bullets. And Pedersoli's have six lands and grooves not three so the "three groove obturation problem " isn't an issue.
Last edited:
Believe me, I was surprised too but the rifle hates that bullet. And I will clarify this is 300 yards and further, Does not keyhole at short distances. The Pedersolis like .460 lead bullets, so while I do agree a company would not want their product to not be able to shoot factory ammo, they do manufacture the repros with BP shooters in mind. So .458 and .459 lead bullets at trapdoor speeds do not shoot well for many of these rifles. From what I can tell, it seems to be half and half. Some will and some won't. Mine is definitely the kind that needs .460 and shoots best with 500-535gr bullets.
