Traps for the unwary

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Now that we have the Internet it is easier to find out what is and isn't legal in a jurisdiction.

But there are still some restrictions that act as a trap for the unwary.

For example, in New Jersey you can have a semi-auto shotgun, but don't add a pistol grip or extend your magazine to seven shots.

What traps for the unwary in your jurisdiction?
 
There are only two I can think of off the top of my head, and they're related:

1) All handgun transfers have to go through a dealer. Strange, but it is what it is (for now).

2) There is a record here of handgun transfers kept by the State Police. (Supposedly not a registry of owners or guns but sales. Yeah...whatever.) Occasionally an overzealous PSP officer will "run the numbers" on someone's gun in a traffic stop or other encounter and if the sale of that gun to that person isn't in the record (get that? The sale to the person of the gun...not the person or the gun itself. Yeah ... :rolleyes:) then the officer will confiscate the gun causing all kinds of hassle and rights infringement to the owner. There are several perfectly legal reasons why someone's handgun might not appear in the sale registry and there is no legal justification for a confiscation, but it has happened.

A VERY strong reason why, here in PA you do NOT volunteer the information that you are carrying if stopped by a LEO.

Edit to add: 3) Open carry is legal -- BUT any time you're in a vehicle, you are considered to be carrying concealed, so you must have your LCTF.
 
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You can carry in a bar with a weapons license, but can't drink alcohol, AND you must have the express permission of the bar owner.
 
Very soon the only trap I can think of off the top of my head will be resteraunts that serve open alcohol and are not posted "no guns" with the correct sign. No permit to carry concealed as of the 29th, EXCEPT those resteraunts, you MUST have an AZ permit to carry and may NOT drink any alcohol.
 
In Ohio, if you have a CHL or recognized equivalent, you can just drop a handgun in your pocket and walk from one end of the state to the other and be completely legal. Walk out of your front door, get in your car with that same gun in that same pocket and you're committing a crime. When in an automobile, if your firearm is on your body, it MUST be in a holster, including a pocket holster. A "ClipGuard" or similar device is NOT considered a "holster" and somebody was recently arrested for using one in his vehicle.

In Ohio, you must "promptly" notify an LEO if you are "stopped for a law enforcement purpose". The law does NOT define "promptly". A guy was the subject of a felony stop by Beachwood Police during which he was ORDERED NOT TO SPEAK. After ***51*** seconds, he managed to inform. He was arrested, charged and tried for "failure to promptly inform". He was acquitted. In Beachwood, Ohio, the police will order you AT GUNPOINT not to do something, then ARREST you for obeying their commands. I advise everybody who carries in Ohio to shout over a cop to inform "promptly" if necessary, and to take appropriate civil action if he says or does anything to you in retaliation. You can't do untrustworthy things and then complain that nobody trusts you.
 
Very soon the only trap I can think of off the top of my head will be resteraunts that serve open alcohol and are not posted "no guns" with the correct sign. No permit to carry concealed as of the 29th, EXCEPT those resteraunts, you MUST have an AZ permit to carry and may NOT drink any alcohol.
Ohio bans carry in establishments which sell liquor "by the drink" for on premises consumption (Class D). This includes Chipotle.

I don't think I've EVER seen a Class D establishment which was posted, ESPECIALLY Chipotle. My favorite family restaurant has a Class D liquor license, and until they recently put in a cooler by the cash register with wine and beer in it, you'd never know.

I ALWAYS leave my gun in the car before eating at an unknown non-fastfood restaurant because of this.

There's legislation pending to fix this as well as the goofy laws regarding carry in vehicles.
 
I advise everybody who carries in Ohio to shout over a cop to inform "promptly" if necessary

I can see it now.

Officers yelling, tense situation, misunderstanding, mistaken identity, or felony stop.
In your urgency to "promptly inform" you yell into the tension something to inform them that you have a gun.



As for crazy laws?
It is a crime to be outdoors with a flashlight powered by more than 3 volts (two regular 1.5 volt cells) if you have a firearm, even where the firearm would otherwise be legal.
 
Gun Free School-Zones act of 1996, 1990 and OC

http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?50+Duke+L.+J.+637
The addition of a jurisdictional element and findings to the Gun-Free School Zones Act addresses the problems raised in Lopez. Limiting the offense to possession "affecting interstate or foreign commerce" at least makes the statute constitutional on its face. However, doubt remains as to whether the jurisdictional element makes the statute constitutional when the only connection to interstate commerce is that the firearm has moved in interstate commerce. Until Congress offers a reasoned explanation of how past movement in interstate commerce makes subsequent possession affect interstate commerce, the constitutionality of a federal crime prohibiting possession in a school zone of a gun that has moved in interstate commerce, with nothing more, remains in grave doubt.

It would be an interesting test case for any non-CHL having open carrier to test. How would your open carry of a firearm be affecting interstate commerce?

U.S. vs Lopez set a very important constitutional precedent with this case. The 1990 law was found to be unconstitutional. The 1996 law added the while affecting interstate or foreign commerce verbiage. I don't think that this new law has been challenged yet.

Even with the new and improved verbiage :uhoh:,It won't pass constitutional muster with this opinion found below.

U.S. Supreme Court
UNITED STATES v. LOPEZ, ___ U.S. ___ (1995)
UNITED STATES v. LOPEZ, ___ U.S. ___ (1995)

UNITED STATES, PETITIONER v. ALFONSO LOPEZ, JR.
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

No. 93-1260.

Argued November 8, 1994
Decided April 26, 1995

After respondent, then a 12th-grade student, carried a concealed handgun into his high school, he was charged with violating the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990, which forbids "any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that [he] knows . . . is a school zone," 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(1)(A). The District Court denied his motion to dismiss the indictment, concluding that 922(q) is a constitutional exercise of Congress' power to regulate activities in and affecting commerce. In reversing, the Court of Appeals held that, in light of what it characterized as insufficient congressional findings and legislative history, 922(q) is invalid as beyond Congress' power under the Commerce Clause.

Held:

The Act exceeds Congress' Commerce Clause authority. First, although this Court has upheld a wide variety of congressional Acts regulating intrastate economic activity that substantially affected interstate commerce, the possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, have such a substantial effect on interstate commerce. Section 922(q) is a criminal statute that by its terms has nothing to do with "commerce" or any sort of economic enterprise, however broadly those terms are defined. Nor is it an essential part of a larger regulation of economic activity, in which the regulatory scheme could be undercut unless the intrastate activity were regulated. It cannot, therefore, be sustained under the Court's cases upholding regulations of activities that arise out of or are connected with a commercial transaction, which viewed in the aggregate, substantially affects interstate commerce. Second, 922(q) contains no jurisdictional element which would ensure, through case-by-case inquiry, that the firearms possession in question has the requisite Page II nexus with interstate commerce. Respondent was a local student at a local school; there is no indication that he had recently moved in interstate commerce, and there is no requirement that his possession of the firearm have any concrete tie to interstate commerce. To uphold the Government's contention that 922(q) is justified because firearms possession in a local school zone does indeed substantially affect interstate commerce would require this Court to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional Commerce Clause authority to a general police power of the sort held only by the States.

I just posted this at OFCC as well. This is a legal pitfall for everyone in the U.S.
 
I advise everybody who carries in Ohio to shout over a cop to inform "promptly" if necessary, and to take appropriate civil action if he says or does anything to you in retaliation.

I wholeheartedly second this advice.
 
Hmm, simplest one I can think of in CT to get messed up on is due to our AWB...

Should you have a semi auto rifle with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip on it, make sure you don't mistakenly add a muzzle attachment that is considered a flash suppressor or leave the device unwelded/pinned. Otherwise, you have an illegal assault weapon. Compensators, and other muzzle breaks seem to be fine. Just flash suppressors are a no-go.
 
I can see it now.

Officers yelling, tense situation, misunderstanding, mistaken identity, or felony stop.
In your urgency to "promptly inform" you yell into the tension something to inform them that you have a gun.
It's that or be arrested, indicted and TRIED for "failure to inform" because you OBEYED THE LEOS' ORDERS. Those are your choices.

It reminds me of a trick the Philippine Constabulary used to use. They'd pull you over for something and demand your license. While they had your license, they'd order you to pull farther off the road. Then they'd cite you for "driving without your license in your possession".

The notification requirement has clearly been abused and needs to be done away with.
 
It's that or be arrested, indicted and TRIED for "failure to inform" because you OBEYED THE LEOS' ORDERS. Those are your choices.

First thing that comes to my mind would be is the officers order to remain silent a lawful order. I can tell you that personally I'd never obey that order anyway if I have something the officer needs to be made aware of.
 
It's that or be arrested, indicted and TRIED for "failure to inform" because you OBEYED THE LEOS' ORDERS. Those are your choices.

I'd say with the precedent set by the other case that was mentioned, they'd have a hard time making it stick in court.
 
As for crazy laws?
It is a crime to be outdoors with a flashlight powered by more than 3 volts (two regular 1.5 volt cells) if you have a firearm, even where the firearm would otherwise be legal.
I would think that this has something to do with late night hunting/ blinding animals before shooting them?

Here in Illinois, FOID cards for people who inherit/given a gun, or old guys who didn't need them when they were young and got their shotgun and never got one. Also, the whole unloaded, in a case, out of reach in the car thing.
 
In Texas you can legally hunt cougars and hogs with airguns but it's illegal to shoot squirrels or crows (or any other game animals/birds) with airguns.

You can legally carry a handgun in your vehicle in Texas without a permit as long as it's concealed. If it's not concealed then it's illegal. If you live next door in New Mexico just the reverse is true.
 
New Mexico law allows a person to have a concealed loaded firearm in his/her vehicle (including motorcycles and bicycles). If you are not licensed to carry concealed in this state or a state that NM honors, you may not have the weapon concealed on your person when you exit your vehicle or motorcycle. As long as you are in or on your vehicle, you may carry openly or concealed.
 
First thing that comes to my mind would be is the officers order to remain silent a lawful order. I can tell you that personally I'd never obey that order anyway if I have something the officer needs to be made aware of.
Who knows if it's lawful or not. I'd ignore it simply because whatever he does is going to have fewer and lesser consequences for me than failure to notify.
I'd say with the precedent set by the other case that was mentioned, they'd have a hard time making it stick in court.
It'd NEVER stick in court. But why put yourself in the position where they can even TAKE you to court without committing a major civil rights violation?

There's no telling what the cop would do if you shouted over him to notify. Unless he shoots me, in the end, it'll hurt him worse than it hurts me. It would be more than worth it to get tazed in such a situation. You have an unqualified duty to notify. Using physical force to prevent you from notifying is a prima facia civil rights violation. I'd rather get tazed or even beaten, than indicted for not obeying the law, even under coercion. That'd be a dashcam video seen around the world. And like a lot of Ohioans who carry, concealed and openly, I ALWAYS carry a voice recorder.
 
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In Florida, there are no restrictions on where within a motor vehicle a long gun is carried. However, it cannot be on your person unless your are a CW/F license-holder. I have read of at least one prosecution, which was unsuccessful, of a man who had one behind the seat of his pickup. There, it was legal, but was interpreted as having become illegal when he reached behind the seat to retrieve his ID.
Also, in Florida, carrying in a bar, even by a CW/F license-holder, is prohibited. In a restaurant that serves alcohol, it is permitted. However, if that restaurant has a bar, one may not carry while at that bar, only while in the dining portion.
 
U.S. vs Lopez set a very important constitutional precedent with this case. The 1990 law was found to be unconstitutional. The 1996 law added the while affecting interstate or foreign commerce verbiage. I don't think that this new law has been challenged yet.

Even with the new and improved verbiage ,It won't pass constitutional muster with this opinion found below.

Yes but the original was overturned on a different criteria the Supreme Court used to determine interstate commerce.
Under the newer criteria of the Raich case, even the original law would likely have been deemed Constitutional.
See Raich and United States v Stewart (9th district, sent back "in light of Raich" from the Supreme Court.)

I would think that this has something to do with late night hunting/ blinding animals before shooting them?
The intent was certainly to stop such things, but the statute does not include that.
It is also always in force, whether hunting or not.

The Fish and Game code does not cease to exist because you are not engaged in sporting activities. It is still the law. Whether you are camping, walking in the woods to go to the bathroom, or pulled over on the side of the road changing your tire.
If it is a rural area where game animals can be found, it is a crime to use a flashlight over 3 volts:
(b) It is unlawful for any person, or one or more persons, to
throw or cast the rays of any spotlight, headlight, or other
artificial light on any highway or in any field, woodland, or forest
where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are
commonly found, or upon any game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or
nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or
her control any firearm
or weapon with which that mammal could be
killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or
otherwise pursued
.

(d) The provisions of this section do not apply to any of the
following:
(1) The use of a hand-held flashlight no larger, nor emitting more
light, than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, provided that light
is not affixed in any way to a weapon, or to the use of a lamp or
lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light.

In fact a light that is attached to a weapon is always illegal under the statute in such an area.
Ones not attached to a weapon must be 3 volts or less.

There is an exemption for motor vehicle headlights (or if you are involved in agriculture):
(2) Headlights of a motor vehicle operated in a usual manner where
there is no attempt or intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing
mammal, or nongame mammal.

But flashlights are always illegal to use if over 3 volts if you have a firearm in your possession. Interestingly enough it is not illegal to possess the flashlight, merely to "throw or cast its rays" while also possessing a firearm.
 
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As Gen Geoff pointed out, the "trap" is that there are just flat out too many laws.
Not merely the RKBA ones that are our primary focus, but the Byzantine labyrinth which is the matrix of Federal, State, and Local laws, ordinances, and rules we are expected to be knowledgeable of and obey.

Which is tough sledding since that runs from about 9000 to over 12,000 of these laws and regs and the like we are expected to know (varying by location). For those people living near jurisdictional borders, there's the added burden of having to know all the things that are legal on "the other side of the line" as well.

Bad enough for citizens as is, redoubled for "our" community, as we cannot become "criminals" and still keep our arms, But, even more foolish, to my thinking, for the burden placed on LE.

But, I know I am preaching to the choir here; "we" must needs immerse ourselves in our rights, in being "good guys" or we do not get to "play." Which makes the isolation from reality our legislators enact more laws, rules, ordinances, etc., all the more galling.

Want a "trap"? On the other side of the Rio Grande, you can buy sugar cane by the bundle, to cook down to make canella. But, the longest hunk of cane you can take across to this side of the border is 25mm (and very much not 26mm). But, you can make canella and walk it over.

We probably have Stamp Acts by the score, and would need weeks to sift just what is in print now, a great long time to find them out. Then, we'd have the problem of going to those who enacted them for redress.
 
In NC I would say it is the "Armed to the terror of the people" charge:
"By common law in North Carolina, it is unlawful for a person to arm himself/herself with
any unusual and dangerous weapon, for the purpose of terrifying others, and go about on public highways in a manner to cause terror to others."

The N.C. Supreme Court states that any gun is an unusual and dangerous weapon for purposes of this offense. So if you are carrying and the cop does not like the smell of you, he can throw this charge on you. I have not seen the stats but I swear this has got to be the most charged and dropped charge in NC. It is used anytime a cop find someone with a gun who just does not smell right to them. In most other states, barring an actual criminal offense they would reluctantly let you go. In NC, they can declare this charge and arrest you.
 
n Texas you can legally hunt cougars and hogs with airguns but it's illegal to shoot squirrels or crows (or any other game animals/birds) with airguns.

That's because squirrel and birdies are cute and cougars and hogs are ugly. Same reason my exterminator can set traps and poison all around the place if I see a rat but not if a squirrel gets in my house.
 
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