Trigger Quality and Self Defense

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Dibbs said:
Just my 2 cents, the whole point of a DA trigger is a heavy pull. If it's a light pull, it might just as well be a SAO trigger.
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I can appreciate this opinion but for me DA isn't just about trigger weight but also trigger travel.

That extra travel is, IMO just as relevant as weight.
 
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Dibbs said:
Just my 2 cents, the whole point of a DA trigger is a heavy pull. If it's a light pull, it might just as well be a SAO trigger.
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These whole point of a DA trigger is actually the "double action" function.

It's heavier than the trigger pull on a single action only because of the mechanics/physics behind the function of DA vs SAO.
 
Going back decades when we didn't have as many experts as there are now, many men and women learned that by placing a dime, nickle or quarter on a revolver's top strap, DA trigger control was learned in a very short time period. Learn trigger control on a revolver makes it easier to shoot pistols IMO.

There is more to trigger control than weight pull. I am still able to push split times on target with S&W .357mag ammunition, due in part, to extensive training learning trigger reset and hammer timing. Change over to a Colt Trooper Mk III and I was surprised to learn...trigger reset was very different, it was longer by comparison, kind of like short stroking a pump shotgun. While I like the Mk III very much, it's not in the carry category like the Smiths. This example can be used for other platforms, including pistols...steel, alloy or polymer. Training with one platform may not carry over to others. :)

Over time, I trained, qualified and carried 1911s. For me, this is the fastest sidearm to put into action and sub .20 second split times on target is very doable, in part, due to trigger reset...at my age. :) Same goes for many other platforms, but this isn't going to happen with some platforms known to have "crappy" triggers.

Double and triple taps on target should be the norm for personal defense training, trigger pull and reset times are extremely important during critical encounters. YMMV :)

Enjoying range time is a common smile on face experience.
 
2zulu1 said:
Going back decades when we didn't have as many experts as there are now, many men and women learned that by placing a dime, nickle or quarter on a revolver's top strap, DA trigger control was learned in a very short time period. Learn trigger control on a revolver makes it easier to shoot pistols IMO.

There is more to trigger control than weight pull. I am still able to push split times on target with S&W .357mag ammunition, due in part, to extensive training learning trigger reset and hammer timing. Change over to a Colt Trooper Mk III and I was surprised to learn...trigger reset was very different, it was longer by comparison, kind of like short stroking a pump shotgun. While I like the Mk III very much, it's not in the carry category like the Smiths. This example can be used for other platforms, including pistols...steel, alloy or polymer. Training with one platform may not carry over to others. :)

Over time, I trained, qualified and carried 1911s. For me, this is the fastest sidearm to put into action and sub .20 second split times on target is very doable, in part, due to trigger reset...at my age. :) Same goes for many other platforms, but this isn't going to happen with some platforms known to have "crappy" triggers.

Double and triple taps on target should be the norm for personal defense training, trigger pull and reset times are extremely important during critical encounters. YMMV :)

Enjoying range time is a common smile on face experience.
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Indeed.

The human body is just as much a mechanical machine as anything else, full of levers, pulleys, ropes, and joints.

Therefore the "machine-to-machine" interface is a fairly complex "device" in and of itself. Especially when you consider one of them is a learning machine.

As you point out, triggers vary mechanically in many ways all of which may have a significant impact on control.

I remember, for example, when I bought my Beretta 92FS and then discovered I couldn't consistently hit my target with a darn. I had two other pistols at that time that I had absolutely no problems with...an AMT Automag II and a Colt 1991A1. I could hit point of aim with them all day, but my Beretta targets looked like I shotgunned them.

I finally forced myself to slow way down, did some extremely slow fire from a bench rest, and paid very close attention to trigger control.

I was able to put bullets at point of aim no problems this way.

After studying this for a while, I realized the triggers were designed differently and that was what was throwing me off. Both my previous pistols had triggers which pulled straight back into their pistol frames. The Beretta's, however, pivots.

I simply had to relearn trigger control all over again, which was pretty easy once I understood what was going on.
 
Corpral_Agarn said:
I can appreciate this opinion but for me DA isn't just about trigger weight but also trigger travel.
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Anyone who shoots a Kahr can attest to that.

When I teach people to shoot my Kahr, I have to tell them about the long trigger pull... if you are not prepared for it, you keep anticipating it, waiting... waiting... waiting... and what I've found is people tend to use their entire hand to squeeze the trigger, instead of the trigger finger all the way. It is not a target pistol, it's a service pistol... pull the trigger straight through, using your trigger finger only, don't load it, stack it, or hesitate.
 
IMHO trigger quality is extremely important, especially if using it in harms way. On my 1911s used for carry I prefer a 5lbs pull, as smooth and crisp as possible. On my BHPs I usually leave them stock and just deburr and smooth things out, I leave the mag disconnect in place (even though I do not care for it), most of my BHPs measure around 6.5Lbs, but they are smooth and crisp.

I personally do not like really light triggers on a carry piece. A smooth and crisp trigger often "feels" lighter than it actually is.
 
It depends, in my opinion. Is it an up close fight where the defender just needs to empty his gun? Then the trigger is completely unimportant. Or is it a radically different scenario, like the Fairchild AFB event where the good guy had to make a 70 yard pistol shot to stop a rampage? Then you want the best trigger you possibly can get.

I personally see no downside to a good trigger. I do not consider it completely necessary for a defensive gun, but also do not understand why a fellow would put up with a bad trigger when there are so many decent ones available.
 
My CZ-75 Compact 9mm has a 10 pound pull in double action,
but it's very smooth, so the "first shot from draw" is good. The
following single action shots are 5 pound pull and quick.

I prefer the hammer/double action combo for CCW; I don't
like striker fired pistols for deep conceal carry (in my crotch)
as I value keeping my "johnson"...
 
I can handle triggers pulls at factory-stock-spec weight, in every handgun I own. Long range sessions may be more fatiguing, sooner, but the relatively few shots that would be fired in a realistic defensive scenario would not be a problem.

If there is a hitch, somewhere, in the git-along, however, that can be a challenge. Examples are a burr on an engagement surface of one of the parts, or, any Glock trigger. ;)

I worked for a PD that did not allow us to carry weapons with altered or modified trigger parts. This applied 24/7/365. (Except for a few specialized SWAT and Narcotics Entry Team weapons, and less-lethal shotguns, we were not issued weapons, being expected to buy our own, within guidelines.) A burr being stoned-away never got anyone in trouble, presumably because a burr is extra metal that did not belong, anyway.
 
for me, i can handle a long trigger pull, and a heavy trigger pull, but not at the same time. my carry guns have always had relatively short, moderate weight and reasonably crisp triggers.
 
My measure of a "good ccw" trigger is what happens after it breaks. A lot of over travel has me hammering the trigger back into the frame. It can be heavy, long, spongy, whatever, as long as the over travel is minimal.
 
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MCFLYFYTER said:
My measure of a "good" trigger is what happens after it breaks. A lot of over travel has me hammering the trigger back into the frame. It can be heavy, long, spongy, whatever, as long as the over travel is minimal.
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I am a trigger snob and really do best with a trigger that has no faults at all. Your post, though, is a good reminder that not everyone has the same needs or requirements.
 
All my carry guns have great DAO triggers. Both Pistol and revolvers. I love them. My favorite and most fun gun to shoot is the Ruger LCR22. Nothing like a smooth, deliberate, DAO trigger for EDC. Controlled all the way through. I save the light short triggers for Target guns.(seldom shoot bullseye target anymore) And I have never ridden a reset in my life nor do I intend to. Constant familiarity with the triggers. Shoot a minimum of once a week. Usually twice a week. More in the summer.
 
My competition firearms all have better triggers than many of my SD firearms, pistol, rifle and shotgun, across the board.

That said, I have fired many hundreds of thousands of rounds practicing and competing, very, very few in SD.
 
Charlie98 said:
If you are talking about the trigger at the Moment of Truth? It could be 35# and you wouldn't know the difference.

As far as a decent trigger on a carry pistol for training, it should be reasonable. If you are doing draw and shoot drills and you are constantly fighting the trigger, it's not going to help... and same with a too-light trigger, which could result in a AD if you are drawing.

When I first started to take concealed carry seriously, I was carrying an AMT DAO .380. My D&S drills were terrible... a tiny pistol with a horrible trigger. It was not a good match.
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This makes me think of some experience I had with a sw40ve. When trying to make very slow, carefully aimed shots the long trigger pull would throw me off every time. Try shooting it against a timer or in a 3 gun match and accuracy improved dramatically.
 
2zulu1 said:
Training with one platform may not carry over to others.
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Several years ago, I took some training where part of it included slow motion recording of practice. The trainers analyzed every part from moving the cover garment through reloading. One of the things that they noticed and harped on me about was that I did not keep my index finger on the trigger after a shot - there would be a very small amount of space on fast strings of fire. You may already know where I'm going with this. Those trainers all used a certain brand of guns that have a longer trigger travel, but a very short reset. I was shooting a different brand, where the overall trigger travel was shorter, but the reset was longer, almost near the start of the trigger pull. When a person attempts the trainer's technique on my make/model, you get a trainer that wonders why your gun can only do single shot strings for them!

Understanding, familiarity, and practice with the individuality of your trigger is important.
 
cougar1717 said:
Several years ago, I took some training where part of it included slow motion recording of practice. The trainers analyzed every part from moving the cover garment through reloading. One of the things that they noticed and harped on me about was that I did not keep my index finger on the trigger after a shot - there would be a very small amount of space on fast strings of fire. You may already know where I'm going with this. Those trainers all used a certain brand of guns that have a longer trigger travel, but a very short reset. I was shooting a different brand, where the overall trigger travel was shorter, but the reset was longer, almost near the start of the trigger pull. When a person attempts the trainer's technique on my make/model, you get a trainer that wonders why your gun can only do single shot strings for them!

Understanding, familiarity, and practice with the individuality of your trigger is important.
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The main reason I traded my Sig 250, I didn't mind the long trigger pull but I short stroked the reset pretty often.

Didn't want to spend the time learning a trigger so different than my other guns
 
Light trigger pulls are important for target shooting. Under the duress of a real world self defense shooting they are probably more of a handicap than help.
 
I think a fine trigger is needed for a fine gun.
When judging a guns overall characistics I will judge the trigger pull. But for a self-defense gun, if it points good and grips good, that's really all what matters.
I mean, my Colt Trooper mk3 has a awful trigger. Very heavy, and probably is a sign of it's LE history. But it still points good as any other Colt, so I still use it. It's a extremely accurate gun, despite that pull though. Maybe I'm just really good with DA revolvers for it not to matter. Nonetheless it's not a revolver I'd hand to a woman or someone with considerably weaker fingers.
So for self-defense use, trigger pull is not really a big deal. If YOU can use it, that's what matters.
 
I have owned 12 pistols over the past 20 years. My experience was that with practice one can master any trigger. Some are more difficult than others. Case on point was the Ruger LC9 with an hard and long pull. It took some time to get used to that trigger. When the LC9s came out I switched to it. It took 30 minutes to get used to that trigger. However I think triggers are a mater of personal presence. For example I did not buy an LCP because I really found the trigger to be so difficult as to not be worth the effort. I did buy an LCP II because it had such an improved trigger that I liked it immediately. My choice for for EDC/SD will be a a lighter pull trigger with short travel to break point and short reset.
 
jmr40 said:
Light trigger pulls are important for target shooting. Under the duress of a real world self defense shooting they are probably more of a handicap than help.
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I don't think they are really a handicap for a defensive firearm..I don't they they are a help either..add in the 'possibility' of a malfunction of that non OE part..trigger work not needed, ATMO.

"Trigger quality and self defense"..stock trigger for me thanks..
 
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