From a self defense/combat standpoint: what's the deal with thumb safeties?

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I don't care for 1911's either primarily because of the grip and thumb safety. My hands are the wrong shape for them, and I don't want the added annoyance of having to remember to do XYZ prior to pulling the trigger.

how high would you rate the importance of a good, clean, crisp, single action trigger pull (a finely tuned 1911 e.g.) vs. a gritty, long double action (CZ P-01 e.g.) or double action only (SA XD e.g.)?
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Why not the long, butter smooth action of a double action revolver?
 
It's been a number of years since the out-of-the-box trigger of a revolver was "buttery smooth". Many agencies don't allow gunsmithing on personal weapons today, either.:)
 
Well, I'm in the minority here, because I don't like thumb safeties. Since most people that carry a gun have never used it in a life threatening situation, I don't think they really know if they will be able to remember to remove the safety in time. But just as an example of how anxiety affects people, I've seen a lot of people forget to remove the safety while hunting and lose their shot while figuring out why their gun won't fire. For me, don't point it at something that you don't want to shoot is safe enough.
 
I dont have a 1911, still need to get one, I know this!

But I do have a pistol with a manual thumb saftey.. a Taurus PT111SSP MilPro. it my primary carry piece, Ive got about 5k thru it, and am quite good with it.
the thumb saftey goes down naturally when I draw now, because I have practiced with it so much. It wouldnt get in the way in a "high stress" situation, as Ive only drawn it one way since I got it.. kinda like how the trigger gets pulled.

during a draw, the saftey comes down as I grip the gun, well before I can reach the trigger.. it natural, simple, and does not effect draw time.. my thumb passes the same course regaurdless if the saftey is on or off.
 
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Carry one gun, train it. I love 1911s but haven't carried them in three years because I have burned into my head point and shoot for the Glock, J, and N-frame. When I transition back to 1911 I will do so when I have time and money to practice and compete with one extensively. I try very hard to compete and practice with the same type, if not the same gun as I am carrying. I was just a crappy C class shooter when I started USPSA with a 1911, never forgot the safety.

When I was forced to carry a beretta I had issue with the up is safe manipulation, it was pretty un-natural. My initial fix was to carry it de-cocked and off safe in the holster which is safe for a DA gun. Unless of course the safety gets put on and you don't train to activate it on every draw. My better solution was to buy a Beretta and shoot the crap out of it and practice present, off-safe, shoot until it was second nature. I did a few 500 round range sessions where I re-safed after every shot to practice nothing but the presentation, safety manipulation, and DA shot. After that moved on to DA/SA transition practice, never had a problem with the Beretta. You just have to train.
 
I don't think they really know if they will be able to remember to remove the safety in time.
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Well, the safety is a very complex mechanism, requiring hundreds of precursory decisions before disengaging and even then it is with a signed letter of release. :rolleyes:

We can play the "I don't think they really know..." game all day long.

I don't think they really know if they will remember they are carrying a gun.
I don't think they really know if they will draw their gun.
I don't think they really know if they will be able to pull the trigger.
I don't think they really know if they will remember there is a trigger to pull.
I don't think they really know if they will remember the gun has sights.
I don't think they really know if they will remember if they are left or right handed.

There is a reason for training, plain and simple. If you believe a safety is too complicated for you, or might be, then it probably is. You probably shouldn't have them on any guns you might ever use for self defense.
 
The 1911 demands expertise in its use, unlike more modern firearms which are designed for the lowest common denominator. If you want to carry a 1911, learn to use it with unconscious competence; if you don't, then it don't matter anyhow.
 
EHL said:
This is why so many world militarys have stolen the 1911 design for use in thier own army's. If it weren't such a great combat pistol, they'd be packing plastic
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Which countries?
 
Wow, didn't expect so many replies. Great discussion! :)

Anyway, first let me rephrase my wording in my first post concerning the IPSC shooter I mentioned in the first post: he did NOT forget the safety on, indeed not. He just couldn't disengage it meaning he tried to maneuver it but when the sights were aligned and he pulled the trigger the safety was still on atleast to the degree that it prevented the gun from firing. If someone here thinks I'm bs:ing everybody on this point you can pm me and I'll tell you in more detail what/who/where/when but I wouldn't feel comfortable posting it on the public board.
He's not the only shooter I've seen fail to disengage the safety when the timer rings, a couple of other shooters far more experienced than I (both have a couple of local IPSC tournaments under their belts, don't know anything about their ranking) have also managed to leave the safety on in a similiar setting. I don't think any of them actually forgot all about the safety, they just couldn't disengage it for one reason or another.

Are there shooters here who practice force on force drills and have never failed to disengage the safety when it counts? I mean 100%? In this video, at 1:55 there's a drill in which the defender has a gun (couldn't find a better ecqc video):
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

I'm not a 100% newbie although I consider myself one: I have just one gun (XD9) which I've had for a few 6 months now, put 1050 rounds through it so far and, as I said, do dry fire practice 30mins a day (skipping a Sunday here and there) and I've fired other guns on the range but have next to nothing experience with them. I'm just trying to figure out whether to transition to manual safety guns such as the 1911 or the CZ 75B Compact or stick with the non manual safety guns such as the XDs, CZ PCRs, P-01s etc.

As for the ability to execute fine motor skills in a high stress situation, I do that pretty regurarly when performing with the guitar so it's no rare feat if even I can do it. The difference being that if I muck up on stage it doesn't get me killed (except when the band gets their hands on me after the show :D).

Anyway, I'm starting to get a clearer picture now:
Neither method (thumb safety vs no thumb safety) is superior but depends on the preferences and the nature of the shooter which works best, right?
A person who has shot manual safety guns for the most part might be apt to lose time trying to disengage a Glock safety that isn't there while a shooter new to the manual safety mechanism might fumble with it when it counts.

Thanks for all the thoughts, folks, cleared up a few of my doubts. :)
 
yepp!
Id say if yer interested in transitioning to pistol with a manual saftey, buy one that feels good in yer hand, then practice yer draws over and over and over..
If its not for you, itll become obvious.

I also have a Kahr CW(, that I have no trouble with.. but thats just me..

wont hurt to find out what yer most comfortable with, but till then, only pack what you ARE good with :)

ip.
 
My take on manual safeties is that they are not there to keep you from shooting yourself, they are there to keep you from being shot with your own gun! If a BG grapples you and takes your gun from you, that engaged safety is going to buy you a few precious tenths of seconds to either try to get your gun back or deploy a backup and try to resolve the situation. Even if its an intuitive thumb safety, the BG still has to go through the mental "Oh...duh!" thought process to release the safety, which gives you precious seconds to react and hopefully save your life. A similar case can be made for mag safeties. If you feel like you are loosing control of your weapon, drop the mag, and get your spare out while the BG fiddles with a inert weapon.

As for a nice trigger pull, I suspect that for most people, the adrenaline will make your/our hands shake sufficiently that any benefits of a glass-break trigger will be largely annulled. Besides, its defensive shooting, not bulls-eye. if you need a match trigger pull to reliably put lead into a 1-sq ft target at oh 5-7 feet, there's other more serious issues going on :p!
 
It's been a number of years since the out-of-the-box trigger of a revolver was "buttery smooth"
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BOXES? We don't need no stinkin' BOXES. I buy them old and perfected. Factory guns are for bottom feeders.

Seriously, if you haven't experienced a quality DA revolver then you don't know what you're missing. I like some semis, but I've never liked their triggers.
 
Its a lever for crying out loud. You grip the gun, thumb goes on top of the safety and your shooting grip automatically sweeps the safety off.

If you can safely drive a car with up to 26 separate controls, work a tv remote with 30 buttons without looking or wipe your ass with a handful of toilet paper without the use of a mirror you can certainly remember to flick off the safety before pulling the trigger...

I am actually tired of hearing this crap... It ain't exactly rocket surgery...
 
heh, heh!!! I can't believe how many people think that little lever is such a puzzling device that perplexes even the greatest minds!!! This is nuts!!! Honestly, I know us guys tend to have one track minds, but this is a little silly to make such an issue of the mind boggling thumb safety. From the talk I hear, I'm surprised I'm not hearing on the nightly news of daily reports of people killed because they couldn't figure out the safety on thier 1911. "This just in, we just recieved word that 19 more people were killed tonight by assailants because of their thumb safety. Apparently this device has been known to cause problems among 1911 owners. Colt was unavailable for comment.....":rolleyes:
 
The literature on stress responses is very clear. Those of you who think that even the best trained and practiced cannot flub a motor sequence due to stress are just wrong.

Many of us have seen it happen in matches and in real life and simulations in other trained domains, it happens.

If you don't want to believe it, then you should be one of our current politicians who ignore science.
 
Its a lever for crying out loud. You grip the gun, thumb goes on top of the safety and your shooting grip automatically sweeps the safety off.

If you can safely drive a car with up to 26 separate controls, work a tv remote with 30 buttons without looking or wipe your ass with a handful of toilet paper without the use of a mirror you can certainly remember to flick off the safety before pulling the trigger...

I am actually tired of hearing this crap... It ain't exactly rocket surgery...
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I think some of you are missing the point. It isn't that it is "rocket surgery," that it is complicated, or anything of the sort. The point is, when you are excited, threatened, in a hurry, the adrenaline is flowing, etc. I would bet that the small little thumb lever gets a little more complicated and a little harder to remember.

Based on what I have witnessed on different ranges and in hunting scenarios where I have seen people who were very knowledgable about their guns, I would say it changes under stress.
 
Those of you who think that even the best trained and practiced cannot flub a motor sequence due to stress are just wrong.
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Never said it couldn't happen. In stressful situations people pull triggers before they are ready to actually fire... people drop guns, forget license plate numbers, can't remember what color the bad guy was wearing and so on and so forth but some people in here are blowing this out of proportion.

It is not that big of a deal. Hey, s--t happens... if it didn't we wouldn't carry guns.

Stating that it requires tons of training to properly handle a 1911 is ridiculous. It requires no more training to use than what is required to operate a handgun without a thumb safety. It just requires different training.
 
The 1911 thum safety is mounted on the frame, a flick with the side of the thumb downward = Safety OFF, the thumb continues and completes the grip
positioned above the mag release. If a shot is determined to not be
necessary the thum flicks the thumb safety upward and it's Safety ON.

I carry my full size 1911 in a Milt Sparks OWB #Axiom which is strong side
"FBI" or muzzle rearwad by 10? degrees Cant. It is form fitting to the slide
and trigger guard, it does not touch the mag release, it holds the weapon close to the body - no, the thumb safety has never 'wiped' to off. It is not
an ambi-safety.

I've handled some Semi-AUtos that have the SLide mounted thumb safety,
DA/SA platforms and I think if I ever had to use one I'd just leave the
ill-positioned & difficult to manipulate lever in the oFF position since it would
be carried in DA mode.

I have a S&W N-frame - a 625 5"Bbl .45 ACP - it didn't need it but it has
the master REvolver Action Job from the S&W
Performance Center. Before it got the MRAJ,
the best out of the box DA/SA revolver I own is
the k-frame 617 6" Bbl. .22 LR 10 shooter I use
for warm up SA, DA and DA Double Taps. it is close
to the 625 in sight radius length, and the same weight
although a bit different in balance. No safeties on a
revolver except the transfer bar in case of a drop.

In either case, 1911, or DA Revolver, Practice times
ad infinitum Last May I got a 9MMx19 semi-auto for
a more economical platform so as to cut back a bit on
.45 ACP with the rising cost of ammo these days. After
considering a lot of 9MM platforms I got the CZ 75B and
one factor was the similiar frame mounted thumb safety
although it does require a manual dropping of the hammer
to go to DA Mode. I've found it's thumb safety convenient
in case I want to pause in the middle of a mag. and hit the
switch to bring the target back on it's overhead trolley so
it is put in a safe mode -and- if I were in the field it could
also be used to put the gun to a safety = ON but remain in SA
mode for a reholster. Problem with engaging the safety on
the CZ 75B is that it's a stiff bugger compared to my 1911.
Both are positive On -OR- OFF but the CZ 75B has to be
raised and turned slightly toward it's left for my thumb to gain
sufficient purchase on it's small nub to work it. Some time
in the future when I send it to Angus for the trigger job I'll ask
bout smoothing it out. Trigger on the DA/SA 75B - it isn't
gritty - just has more travel in SA mode. So, adapt.

I also shoot my buddy's G19 - he likes my 75B - better sights than
his Block and envies the trigger pull on my 1911 - it was
gritty out of the box but has smoothed out after
800 rds.

I first shot a 1911 at age 14 in '65 with a National Guard
unit - my Dad knew the Captain of the squad and they came up
to use our gun clubs' rifle range - the 1911s were included but
the main thing was we had a regulation 500 yard
range with the 8'x8' targets on the Raise & Lower
systems with a big dirt bank, and a walkie talkie for
coms. I qual'd with the 1911 in the USN in the '70s,
and it's manual of arms is pretty much imprinted in the
lizard brain. Revos, started out with a S&W Model 18
served me well on the farm in my teens.

Problem is that was long ago and a far cry from today
where most young boys aren't taught nor do they regularly
do a walk about or on the farm with a handgun being there
as another tool in the drawer so to speak to dispatch a
rabbit, snake or make the durn coyotes at least run faster.

IMHO - the average military recruit of the current generation
has less exposure to firearms and handguns in particular so
the KISS principle of Keep It Simple Stupid is a good way to go
I suppose.

is that a long enough ramble?

Randall






.
 
GEM said:
...Those of you who think that even the best trained and practiced cannot flub a motor sequence due to stress are just wrong....
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I don't doubt it. But so what? It's always possible to mess up under stress. It doesn't matter what type of gun you're using, someone, even if well trained and practiced, somewhere, some time, has found a way to mess up with it under stress. But the better trained and practiced you are, the less likely it is (although anything can still happen).

So pick the type of gun that suits you. Train well and hard with it. And practice regularly and diligently.
 
Ske1etor said:
You grip the gun, thumb goes on top of the safety and your shooting grip automatically sweeps the safety off.…
Click to expand...

I don’t ride the safety with my thumb. The high-thumb grip is overextended and unnatural for my smaller hands. I could install a lowered safety lever, but I imagine that would make a proper holster even more difficult to find.

But concealed carry is still just academic for me at this point.

~G. Fink
 
Seriously, if you haven't experienced a quality DA revolver then you don't know what you're missing. I like some semis, but I've never liked their triggers.
Click to expand...

I thought I had experienced a quality DA trigger but I had mislead myself. They were actually molested DA triggers. Hence my purchase of strain screws, Wolff mainsprings and the sale of a Python I just gave up on.

Interestingly enough, the "reduced power" mainspring, mid-power rebound slide spring and stock strain screw combo gave 100% reliability. Clearly someone had taken a die grinder to the strain screw when something manual would have been preferable.

Buying used sometimes gets you quality DA trigger, sometimes it feels nice but doesn't work and sometimes it sucks. Buying used is more like a box of chocolates than an express track to a nice trigger.
 
Any action can be classified as simple or complex, in a high stress situation you want to perform simple actions not complex. This is usually why people don't do spinning somersault kicks in fights (assuming they could do a spinning somersault kick with ninja movie sound effects). Disengaging the safety on a 1911 is a simple action. yes you can flub it up, but it is less likely than messing up a tactical reload (which is a complex action) that is taught and trained so often now. the simple action required to disengage the thumb safty is a much less complex task than actually getting your hand securly on the grip of any concealed handgun. And one of the huge benefits of training is that you react instead of think about what to do. with enough practice/training disengaging will become part of that reaction.
 
I've never had a problem taking off a safety in actual combat - never forgotten it, never flubbed it, so me for it's a total non-issue. YMMV.
 
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