From a self defense/combat standpoint: what's the deal with thumb safeties?

[Telesway]

This is something I've been wondering for quite some time:

Thumbsafeties and why they are so popular among self defense-oriented shooters.

For sport shooting I totally get why you'd want your gun cocked and locked because you get a nice single action trigger pull from the get-go, right? Or do double action guns have to be fired double action in, say, IPSC?

Anyway, here's what makes me wonder all of this:
When you look at an average self defense scenario in which you would be justified in pulling out your gun and using it, it most likely happens either in "the streets" at a very close distance, around 1-5 feet, right? Or at night in your home when you wake up when something goes "bump" and, once again, you're in tight quarters: narrow hallways, rooms etc.

Another average is stress, heavy stress, and a right good dose of adrenalin and all its effects (any combination of symptoms such as tunnel vision, cold sweat, shaking hands, rubber knees, speech diarrhea, muteness, inability to focus on more than one thing at a time, static "freezing", distortion of time [slows down/speeds up], anxiety, shallow breathing, nausea etc) and the deterioration of fine motor skills.

Another average is that quite often even though all of the above reactions make you inclined to just the opposite, you most often need to keep in mind several matters: can you take cover somewhere? Is there more threats than the one directly in front of you? Maybe you need to protect your family who are in the second floor bedrooms or right behind you in the street? Are you justified in shooting the threat(s) or will that put you behind bars and away from your family for life?
Anyway, lots of stuff.

Now, when you take all of that stuff into consideration and put in in context, how high would you rate the importance of a good, clean, crisp, single action trigger pull (a finely tuned 1911 e.g.) vs. a gritty, long double action (CZ P-01 e.g.) or double action only (SA XD e.g.)?

At this time, being still only a newbie especially when it comes to combat shooting, I tend to rank a "good trigger" WAY down on the list of things that are crucial in a gunfight.

Here's why:
With all the above stuff going on and all the things you have to deal with and take into consideration whilst trying your darnest to survive both the altercation and the aftermath (including possible court and lawsuit) and what with all the effects adrenalin has on you, do you really even notice whether the trigger pull is "good" or "bad" as long as the thing in your hand goes "bang" and sends the projectile in the intended direction?

I've never been in a gunfight but I've been in a few fights and even though it was empty hands on both sides I didn't feel my knuckles get injured when I punched the other guy nor did I feel hurt when I got kicked hard in the shin with steel toed boots. Everything was chaotic and all the motions were pretty big and clumsy and all the nice combos and fine motor maneuvers I'd trained at the thaiboxing gym weren't there: it was ugly and clumsy and what got me out of it was strength, good fitness and, most importantly, sheer aggression and determination to come out on top.

Now, that was a walk in the park compared to an actual gun fight, I'd think. I've never even seen a shooting. I'd imagine it would be even worse and I don't think I'd notice difference in trigger pulls between the world's finest 1911 and a Glock. Again, just guessing, no experience.

The thumb safety is one more thing to worry about when things go from bad to worse in a second. I've seen a champion (literally champion of 3 countries) IPSC shooter forget the safety on when the timer rang. That was in practice and yeah, there's a little stress in there but think about the stress of a gunfight? Loads more and yet this little amount of stress made this man of around 50yo forget the safety on. He's been shooting 1911s all his life and still the gun didn't fire when he pulled the trigger.

If that can happen to him, what about me? A student and a non-LEO or security worker, a civilian, who shoots maybe once a week, once every two weeks, for an hour? Yeah, I do a lot of dry fire practice (about 30mins every day) but still.


Hmm, this turned out a pretty long post, sorry about that. Basically what I'm wondering is that why is it that most people still prefer guns with thumb safeties? I think the 1911 is the most beautiful gun there is and I'm going to buy one some day for range use but I wouldn't feel comfortable with it as a carry weapon for the above mentioned reasons.

So, am I missing something here? It's very possible I'm ignorant due to lack of experience with firearms and I'm guessing that is the case since, if my memory serves me right, even The Colonel Cooper considered the 1911 the ultimate combat handgun. I would very much like to know if there really is something I'm missing here.

Thanks in advance,
Chris

 

[D-Day]

I have no problem with a 1911 thumb safety. In fact, if I were to start carrying a Glock or other manual safetyless-DA and had to clear leather, I'd be delayed because my thumb would be swiping the slide looking for the safety by instinct for a second before I thought "what the-- oh..."; which, would in turn potentially get me killed.

There's no reason why you can't be fast with a 1911 slide safety. Practice, practice, practice. They might take a little extra skill to master, moving from no slide safety-DA's, but you should be able to do it with ease. Same goes for 1911 people going to no-safety DA's, and I do practice with Glocks to help with trigger pull and training, but wouldn't wanna switch to a Glock or DA for carry...why would I wanna go and do something like that?

 

[EHL]

The 1911 is the ultimate fighting pistol. It is so for several reasons. Quite simply, it's a war horse. While the safety levers on berettas and Walther ppks are a pain in the rear to manipulate, especially in high stress situations, (I carry my walther safety off) the 1911 doesn't have this weakness. In fact, manipulating the thumb safety on this design is both easy and becomes instinct with practise. As far as a good trigger pull goes, you'll appreciate a nice trigger pull if you are futher out than ten-15 feet. As you mentioned, stress, adrenaline, and urgency can all affect our accuracy, a nice trigger pull will at least not contribute to inaccuracy since it minimizes movement of the pistol off the target when you pull the trigger. Granted, this isn't the ONLY reason that the 1911 beats out tupperware in combat applications, there are many reasons. This is why so many world militarys have stolen the 1911 design for use in thier own army's. If it weren't such a great combat pistol, they'd be packing plastic. (which is a heck of a lot cheaper than an all steel pistol.)
The thumb safety is just that extra measure of protection for an AD. However, if anybody chose to have the thumb safety off, they could always simply rely on the grip safety. I use both since the safety mechanism is so second nature and easy to disengage in a split second. Like any pistol, practise, practise, practise until it becomes second nature.

 

[kcshooter]

Deactivating the safety is a natural instinctive part of the draw for anyone who has trained and practiced with a 1911. Muscle memory causes it to happen without even a thought. This is a non-issue which appears to be another post about why the 1911 isn't a good defensive weapon.

I've seen a champion (literally champion of 3 countries) IPSC shooter forget the safety on when the timer rang.

Sorry, that's B.S. A champion shooter who has been shooting 1911's all his life "forgot" to take the safety off? Yeah, I ain't buyin it.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Now, when you take all of that stuff into consideration and put in in context, how high would you rate the importance of a good, clean, crisp, single action trigger pull (a finely tuned 1911 e.g.) vs. a gritty, long double action (CZ P-01 e.g.) or double action only (SA XD e.g.)?

I don't see the importance of a clean crisp trigger in a stressful environment. It's wonderful at the range, but when it comes time to use it in defence chances are you aren't going to notice the difference between a 3 lb and 8 lb trigger.

As far as thumb safeties go, I've said it before. If you can't rely on your thumb to disengage the safety, operate the magazine release or release the slide, then you can't rely on your body to do the other things necessary in a defense scenario. Go buy a club or start training yourself better.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

This is why, when asked "what gun should I get for self-defense" so many people answer "start with a revolver". And "only go with a 1911 if you are going to practice a lot".

I will probably never get used to a thumb decocker, but I am definitely used to the very intuitive 1911-style thumb safety.

 

[weisse52]

n fact, if I were to start carrying a Glock or other manual safetyless-DA and had to clear leather, I'd be delayed because my thumb would be swiping the slide looking for the safety by instinct for

Mentioned this in a post yesterday. I tried Glock for awhile and this is just what I found myself doing. I was doing it without even thinking. It was the instructor who pointed it out to me with a "Hey, that thing don't have a safety, so stop trying to dis-engage it"

When you have practiced something enough, it becomes an instinct.

Sorry, that's B.S. A champion shooter who has been shooting 1911's all his life "forgot" to take the safety off? Yeah, I ain't buyin it.

I am not calling the BS alarm, but it does sound fishy.....

 

[GEM]

About the safety:

1. I've seen the failure to take off the safety several times from champion level folks - so it does happen.

2. Study the literature on human errors - even well practiced sequences can go to hell under stress.

This kind of thing has been well studied.

 

[weisse52]

As far as thumb safeties go, I've said it before. If you can't rely on your thumb to disengage the safety, operate the magazine release or release the slide, then you can't rely on your body to do the other things necessary in a defense scenario. Go buy a club or start training yourself better.

2. Study the literature on human errors - even well practiced sequences can go to hell under stress.

My guess is for those people they are going to be in real trouble anyway. So, external saftey or not, that group is going to have issues responding to the threat.
Anything can happen, I agree. We have many reports of people exchanging gunfire at "spitting distance" and never hitting the target.

With a 1911 you must be willing to practice, practice, practice. If you cannot devote the time, then buy something else. But if you do not devote the time to practice then how succesful to you really think you are going to be? Most of us would be better served with less time on the Internet and more time at the range.....

 

[Gordon Fink]

Colonel Cooper considered the 1911 the ultimate combat handgun. I would very much like to know if there really is something I’m missing here.

You’re not missing much.

The U.S. m1911 series was not designed as a defensive weapon system, though many people have forced it into that role today. Doing so effectively requires additional training and/or compromises to the pistol’s safety mechanisms, but it is certainly possible.

~G. Fink

 

[rino451]

There is nothing in the safety vs. non-safety argument that alleviates the need to practice. The "crappy" Glock safe-action trigger takes practice for some as does the 1911 safety and other DAO trigger systems.

I have a LEO friend that I talk CCW with. He's very apprehensive about carrying anything w/o a safety. He's seen two officers loose control of their firearms in a tangle. In one instance the assailant knew how to fist fight and near knocked the officer out, got his gun, pulled the trigger, racked it, and tried to fire again. The officer, while on his back, had time to get to his backup on his vest and get a lucky shot off into the assailant's neck. I'm not sure what happened the other time.

That said, I'm torn between something like a Cougar or a G26.

 

[JR47]

The U.S. m1911 series was not designed as a defensive weapon system, though many people have forced it into that role today.

I'd have to call for an explanation before accepting that. The 1911 was designed to be used by officers, and others who needed a weapon, but who were not going to need a rifle, or who couldn't perform their tasks, and operate a rifle. Even the cavalry, who insisted on the grip safety, outfitted their men with rifles. The use of the pistol was, in cavalry ideas, to be used after closing with the enemy, and the rifle was shot empty.

The 1911 was NEVER issued as an offensive weapon until used by specialty groups well after it's introduction.

The idea that the safety was to be applied, and carried in Condition One, wasn't the military's favored carry. If one suspected imminent combat, then Condition One was allowed, but not until that. Then again, we didn't have many reports of soldiers dying because of the safety, either.

While trigger pull may be well down the list, the fact remains that a good trigger will allow those adrenalin-charged hands and arms to discharge the weapon in a more precise direction than a double-action shot. Harder trigger, harder jerk, and more likely to pull off the target.

There are trainers who advocate that any safety be always engaged when the gun is in the holster, and point to lives saved when the bad guy obtained the gun, but couldn't place it in battery before the good guy reclaimed it, or settled the argument with another weapon.

Point and shoot has killed any number of LEOs, from the days of the revolver on up. Point and shoot works 100% of the time, no matter WHO has the gun.

While there are those who feel that safeties require additional training beyond that of the DAO, or DA/Sa weapon, I'd mention that it takes additional training to enable the shooter to overcome the trigger of the DAO or DA/SA, allowing reliable hits.

I automatically release the safety on my 1911s, or my Taurus/Beretta clones as the gun clears the holster. It's simple to do, and I've done it under the stress of life-threatening danger. How it adds time is hard to understand. The hand is there, at the holster, and the draw is initiated, with the safety being swept as the grip is obtained, while the draw continues. There is no finger on the trigger at that point, so an AD/ND is avoided. Where is the time added?

 

[AndyC]

I forget to take off the safety about as much as I forget to put my finger on the trigger.

 

[Gordon Fink]

I’d have to call for an explanation before accepting that.…

But you gave the explanation for me.

The U.S. m1911 was designed as a military service pistol. As it turned out, though, the Colt-Browning system can be easily converted into a combat handgun. There isn’t really much call for such a weapon, but I suspect that is what a lot of 1911 advocates are carrying.

Just think about the different potential fighting uses of the handgun, which are defense, service, and combat, in my opinion.

~G. Fink

 

[Frank Ettin]

For many people, who have taken the time to adequately train and practice, the 1911 has proven itself to be particularly effective. For many people, the single action fire control system works better, once it's been learned properly. For other, especially those with small hands, its grip accommodating a single stack magazine is much more manageable than many fashionable pistols with their 2x4 grips and long trigger reaches.

Personally, I see no reason to continually debate the merits (or supposed lack thereof) of the 1911. I've trained extensively with mine, shoot and handle them well and have confidence in them. And that's enough for me. I don't necessarily need third party approval of my choice. And if someone prefers something else, whatever his reasons may be, that's certainly his prerogative and his business; and I have no interest in trying to dissuade him from his choice.

Each person should choose the personal weapon that he has confidence in and manages well. There are quite a few handgun designs that can well fulfill the mission requirements for a personal sidearm, especially for a private citizen. The 1911 is one of those, and there are others. The most important things are that (1) YOU can mange it properly, so choose the design that works best for you; and (2) whatever gun you choose, you should get good training and then practice regularly and diligently.

With training and practice, pretty much any gun of decent quality will do. But some people find some designs suit them better than others.

Under stress, one reverts to his level of training, and no type of gun will make up for a lack of training. Of course someone with minimal training may think he is better off with a DA pistol, but he's fooling himself if he thinks he's truly capable with it or doesn't need more and better training to manage it effectively.

...The U.S. m1911 series was not designed as a defensive weapon system, though many people have forced it into that role today. Doing so effectively requires additional training and/or compromises to the pistol’s safety mechanisms,...

I'm not aware of any compromises to the 1911's safety mechanisms required to make it suitable for use as a defensive weapon. Certainly, the safety mechanisms on mine have not been compromised.

And I agree that using a 1911 effectively as a defensive weapon requires training (and consistent practice). But using any type of pistol effectively as a defensive weapon requires training and regular practice.

If folks shooting other types of handguns aren't getting proper training and practicing regularly, that explains the atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship I see all the time. And if you see someone handling his Glock or Barreta or SIG or XD or whatever else properly and shooting it really well, he has probably gotten some decent training and practices diligently on a regular basis.

Study the literature on human errors - even well practiced sequences can go to hell under stress.

There are all kinds of ways people without adequate training and practice will mess up, no matter what type of gun they are using. So there's no substitute for good training and regular, focused practice, no matter what type of gun you favor.

...being still only a newbie especially when it comes to combat shooting,...

Even all the instructors at Gunsite were at one time. Now is a time for you to try different types of guns and see which ones suit you and which ones you seem to manage well. Also, get some good training and develop your gun handling and shooting skills. And practice regularly. At the end of the day, what kind of gun you choose matters a whole lot less than that it's reliable and that you can manage it well.

As Jeff Cooper used to say, "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

 

[Gordon Fink]

I’m not aware of any compromises to the 1911’s safety mechanisms required to make it suitable for use as a defensive weapon.…

There have been plenty of discussions about pinning grip safeties, holsters that disengage thumb safeties, and even “condition-zero” carry. These are the kind of compromises I was referring to. I have no idea how common they actually are in practice.

~G. Fink

 

[JR47]

The U.S. m1911 was designed as a military service pistol. As it turned out, though, the Colt-Browning system can be easily converted into a combat handgun. There isn’t really much call for such a weapon, but I suspect that is what a lot of 1911 advocates are carrying.
Just think about the different potential fighting uses of the handgun, which are defense, service, and combat, in my opinion.

When the 1911 was designed, there was no division of thought as to self-defense, military, or service. Some guns fit some categories, some fit them all. Guns were designed to kill if necessary. The 1911 , nor any other pistol or revolver in the military arsenal until the HK SOCOM, was not designed, or designated, to be used offensively. In many military groups, the pistol was a badge of rank first, and a weapon second.

I guess that I'm having a little trouble understanding how the 1911 differs from being a combat handgun. The military never thought that way. What differs in the thinking between the M9 and the 1911?

 

[Gordon Fink]

There is little difference from the military point of view. What we have been discussing is the use of manual safeties (and 1911-style pistols by implication) in a context (carry for self-defense) somewhat removed from their original design (military service). Sorry if I’ve confused anyone.

It’s an interesting topic, even if we’re just splitting hairs.

~G. Fink

 

[rcmodel]

I would bet a lot of money that more people have had an ND from a twitchy finger in a stressful situation with a Glock then ever have forgotten to take the safety off on a 1911!

The safety on a 1911 is instinctive, just as thumbing back the hammer was on a Colt SAA when you need to take a shot.
Gunfighters & cavalrymen didn't forget to do that either!

As for a high-level IPSC shooter forgetting his safety> BS!

He might have fumbled a draw and missed it completely, but forget to take it off?
Come on!

rcmodel

 

[GEM]

Seen it happen, so your claim that such mistakes are BS isBS.

 

[KBintheSLC]

From a self defense/combat standpoint: what's the deal with thumb safeties?

I have always wondered the same thing. Never cared for manual safeties of any kind. My favorite safety is a straight trigger finger.

The 1911 is the ultimate fighting pistol.

I think thats pretty subjective. I would feel more comfortable with a Sig226 or a full-sized Glock any day... but that is just me. It really depends on how you are trained. If you muscle memory is used to a thumb safety, then there is a good chance you will remember to disengage it when needed.
If you are like me and like to have a gun that just fires when you pull the trigger, there is nothing scarier than a 1911 in a bad situation. Add a low cap single stack to the equation, and the subjectiveness of the above statement becomes even more apparent.

 

[kcshooter]

Seen it happen, so your claim that such mistakes are BS isBS

Just because your "BS" is in bigger, redder letters doesn't make it right.
Nobody who is well practiced and trained with a 1911, such as the guy in the original post who had been "shooting 1911's all his life" and was a "champion ipsc shooter in 3 countries" forgets.
Fumbles it, yes, but simple muscle memory alone is going to keep you from forgetting. It's a foolish claim.
Anyone who has real experience and training with a 1911 will tell you it isn't something they think about, it just happens.

 

[Hawk]

At this time, being still only a newbie especially when it comes to combat shooting, I tend to rank a "good trigger" WAY down on the list of things that are crucial in a gunfight.

IMHO, you're overthinking the issue. You'll get competent with what you practice with.

Start with what appeals to you and practice. You may change your outlook or not regarding the value of a SAO trigger.

But the time you spend debating the minutae of 1911 vs "Safe Action" vs. DA/SA is time better spent burning powder.

Any resolution you achieve from debate on academic issues may or may not wash away with the first 500 rounds. Whatever you wind up being comfortable with you can come back later and join the "versus" threads at that point. Right now you're just guessing. Some will agree with your guess, others won't and most won't care.

At this point you're looking to debate the relative merits of various swimming strokes and haven't gotten wet yet.

 

[Frank Ettin]

There have been plenty of discussions about pinning grip safeties, holsters that disengage thumb safeties, and even “condition-zero” carry. These are the kind of compromises I was referring to. I have no idea how common they actually are in practice.

I do know that some people pin or otherwise disable grip safeties. In fact, Jeff Cooper did on the 1911 he carried. I've never had a problem with the grip safety. But if someone does, it's a simple matter to sensitize it slightly. When done properly, the grip safety remains fully functional. Or, if the grip safety is a problem for someone, perhaps the 1911 isn't a good choice for him. (I have short fingers, and therefore I have trouble with long, double action trigger strokes, so most double action auto-loaders aren't good choices for me.)

I've never heard of a holster that would automatically disengage the thumb safety on a 1911, but people are continually coming up with all sorts of strange, wondrous and useless devices. I guess it never caught on.

I hear, once in a great while, about carrying a 1911 in condition zero. I personally can't see any reason to do so. Current practice, and the way I've been taught, is to shoot a 1911 with the thumb continuously riding the thumb safety. That and adequate training helps assure proper disengagement of the safety, so there's not need for trick holsters or the like.

Of course if someone isn't interested in getting proper training, maybe a 1911 isn't for him. In fact, he might just be better off with a baseball bat. I personally wouldn't be confident that he'd be that much better off with a DA auto-loader or revolver if he hasn't had appropriate training.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Agreed on the last two posts. Training trumps all, even imperfect ergonomics.

~G. Fink