Trijicon Acog vs. AIMPoint , Bushnell HOlosight, etc

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I'm starting to think ^^^ somebody ^^^ is a salesman for SWFA! :neener:

And as far as Holosight you'd want the Eotech not the Bushnell. The Bushnell lacks the ruggedness of the Eotech. I haven't heard anything but good things about the Trijicon ACOG but they are too pricly for me. But if I were competing or knew I would be going to war I'd want an ACOG for 100yrds+ and an or the Aimpoint 2moa dot for CQB.
 
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They are just the sight I go to for reference of what is available today as they have everything listed on their sight even if it is not in stock plus they list the scope specs which is good for comparison. ACOGs are nice but some have an eye relief of 1.9" and that may not work for some people so they should look at all the specs.
 
Since Zak states in his article that we should not be using scopes with fixed magnification, does this mean that we should avoid using Trijicon ACOGs in favor of other scopes, like Leupold that have variable magnification? Some of his suggestions confused me. WHy would a person use a Trijicon for shooting far, when you cannot adjust the magnification?

Lets say I have the money, would I be better off getting a Trijicon ACOG , Leupold 1-4x scope, Nightforce NXS 1-4, for acquiring targets at close-mid range? Perhaps I could then use a mini holosight along with side mount.

As far as EOTechs, I hear a lot of complaints about it, e.g. battery life and malfunctions. Many have told me AIMPoints are better and more reliable.
 
I think I will actually need to try out some real optics with a knowledgable person to guide me before I can reallly grasp the concept of everything

that's good advice for anyone, especially if you're planning on spending $1000

So, since Zak says that there is no real reason for fixed power scopes, does this mean all Trijicon Acogs are out the window?
i think he was *mostly* talking about optics for precision shooting with a bolt rifle, where 4x would be the low end of the magnification and somewhere between 10x-22x would be the high end. but no, they're not all out the window, just that there's not much point in a fixed 10x scope if the reason you were getting it was because you needed something super-sturdy for a magnum caliber.

Why do people use these Trijicon Acogs?
because they are fast enough for most people at short range and make identifying and hitting a target at medium range much easier

Does the Bullet Drop Compensator make up for their lack of variable magnification?
no because you can get a BDC reticle in most variable scopes too
 
Please delete this, there was an error on the website when posting, so I have duplicated posts.
 
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Please delete this, there was an error on the website when posting, so I have duplicated posts.
 
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What do you think is the best TRijicon Acog to get for an AR15 that will be used for firing at multiple moving targets that are at close range, but may also go out as far as 400 yards or so. My LR308 is what I am using for the long range, precision shooting. My AR15s are more SHTF rifles that I woudl hypothetically be carrying around and engaging targets at closer range. For example, lets say you have a BG across the room shooting at you (lets say 100 feet away), and at the same time another one is in a building shooting at you around 300 yards away. Which type of Trijicon ACOG would be the best to handle this situation of acquiring and taking down the BGs? Or, is there other optics that would handle it better?

You mention 4x is probably to large magnificaiton for such a situaiton. So, do you think that a 3x or even 2x would be most suitable to increase eye relief? I am thinking that perhaps a scope is not the best for CQB, or could it be? The issue is in SHTF situation, you have fast moving targets at variable distances; I would like to have an optic that can accomodate that situation.
 
One thing that I have found to be cool about the ACOG is that you can use the a sight cover http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=22940&title=ACOG%20COVER and the Acog will function like a reflex sight. When working at short range just flip the sight cover up and look through the scope with both eyes open, you will see the reticle on the target. Then flip the sight cover open and you have a 4x scope for longer ranges. I have seen this work with other types of covers as well. Having a scope cover is a good idea anyway, so I think it works out very well.
 
When working at short range just flip the sight cover up and look through the scope with both eyes open, you will see the reticle on the target. Then flip the sight cover open and you have a 4x scope for longer ranges.

Some people really like this set up. A buddy of mine who shoots a lot of three gun swears by it, though only inside about 25 meters. I personally don't find it works real well for me, and doesn't produce much of a difference, speed wise, in close compared to just picking up the chevron in the scope's magnification with both eyes open and I don't like having to do anything to re-engage the magnification for longer range shooting -- but part of that may be the quirks and particulars of my eyes and such.
 
I run a TA45 1.5X24 Compact ACOG on the M4gery. IMHO this is a 200 yard max CQB type weapon so the 1.5X gives me lots of eye relief, FOV, and both eyes open. Fast enough for me and precise enough to the practical range of the carbine. Mine is on the A1 type fixed carry handle, no add-ons, is 6 ounces. I like it. A lot.

Put a TA-33 3X30 compact ACOG on an SEI mount on an M1A. Got more magnification, less eye relief, etc.--but it works pretty well. Basically it supplants irons for me while the optic and mount add 1.0 pounds to the rifle. It doesn't make it a sniper rifle but a pretty good DMR 300 yards (and out) rifle.

I've been at this a while. EVERYTHING is a compromise. Whatever you do, whatever you spend, will be imperfect. Not a major problem because shooting is mental, not about stuff.
 
Hmm , seems like good advice. There is so many Trijicons to choose from, it drives me nuts :banghead: Well, Iam trying to figure it all out. Yeah, I woudl like to save money by getting one of the cheaper trijicons, but I would like to get the best one I can get for my purpose. I mean would a 4x Trijicon work good for CQB?

If I am going to choose one Trijicon ACOG to use for CQB and Mid range combat, which should it be? Yes, I know there is tradeoffs. I also like the idea of a 45 degree holosight. Heck, I don't think it could hurt; probabkly beats an iron sight if your target suddenly gets too close.

I know there is trade-offs and I will never find the one perfect setup. I guess what I want is an optic for SHTF scenario where Bad guys will be moving in close and at mid range. That seems to be a very practical battle scenario. So, I am wondering, if I would be better of with 1.5 or 2 or even 3. Perhaps 4x is overkill and would even hurt me for CQB. I could definately picture if I am in a real battle scenario that enemies would could be hiding in another building not far taking shots at me while another BG is right outside my door firing at me. In this case I rather try to take out both if I could, rather than having to switch guns in the midst of combat.

Or, would a 1-4x Leupold be an better option for more versatility on targets? Is the only advantage of the Trijicon over Leupold the illumination and durability? Or does Trijicon have better ability to acquire targets in CQB and mid range than a Leupold or Nightforce 1-4x type scope?
 
x4 power ACOGs work well enough for CQB work, in my opinion based on using TA01NSNs and TA31s. I don't have any personal experience with the TA11, so will defer to the opinions of those like Zak Smith who are very familiar with that model.

Or, would a 1-4x Leupold be an better option for more versatility on targets? Is the only advantage of the Trijicon over Leupold the illumination and durability? Or does Trijicon have better ability to acquire targets in CQB and mid range than a Leupold or Nightforce 1-4x type scope?

The ACOG is tough. With the magnification up at x4 target acquisition is probably about the same for all of them.

Another scope you could look at is the Elcan Spectre DR -- it toggles back and forth between one power and four power, rather than adjusting through the whole range. With an adjustable x1-4 I shoot (Horus Talon) I find that I typically either run it at somewhere between 1-1.5 or all the way up to x4, so, at least to me, missing out on the in between options would not really make much difference.
 
Another scope you could look at is the Elcan Spectre DR -- it toggles back and forth between one power and four power, rather than adjusting through the whole range. With an adjustable x1-4 I shoot (Horus Talon) I find that I typically either run it at somewhere between 1-1.5 or all the way up to x4, so, at least to me, missing out on the in between options would not really make much difference.

Wow, that looks awesome and exactly what I am looking for. Sadly, at $2,000 + .. I don't think I can afford it :(

Would a Nightforce NXS or Trijicon with a Halo sight be the only other alternative for fast switching between CQB to Mid Range Shooting? Is a Nightforce pretty much like any ohter scope as far as adjusting your lens?
 
4Freedom, first you need to prioritize what you want. No one optic (and many combinations of two optics) is going to do everything you want done and do it at the highest level. I recommend reading these threads in order to understand what types of differences we are discussing:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=193965
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=278688

Now ask yourself:
1. Which is more important to me? Speed of first round on target at less than 100yds or Target acquisition/speed/accuracy beyond 100yds?

If speed <100yds is the answer, then you want some type of red dot/reflex sighting system. If target acquisition/speed/accuracy beyond 100yds is the answer, then an ACOG might be more appropriate.

If you still can't decide and need some combination of the two, then you need to look at variable power scopes or the TA33 and TA11 ACOGs - both of which are still going to be compromise solutions; but you have to find which compromise works best for YOU - and the only real way to do that is get out there and shoot and train (and you'll spend much more in ammo than what the optic costs before you start to get a good handle on that answer).
 
Bartholmew, I know I have heard a lot of complaints about it, but what would you think of Leupold CQ/T compared to Trijicon ACOG? Do you think ACOG 3x is better for quickly picking up targets than CQ/T? Many people I hear complain about the CQ/T because it is bulky and such. Some say it is slow in acquisiton. I thought it may be desirable by the fact that it has variable magnification and a laser sight.

What is more imporant? This is very difficult question for me. I could say it is acquiring a target at close range. But if two BG's are attacking me: One at 50 yards and simultaneously another at 400 yards, I can say both would be equally imporatnt to me. Yes, I know I can never get around the trade-offs, but I would like to just get the best possible solution for the scenario, even though it is not perfect.

The problem I hear with Trijicon's is lack of eye relief. At 3x or 4x, I can see that a close target would be hard to acquire, because of small FOV. Also, without a variable magnifier, wouldn't be fixed at a certain magnification bea disadvantage for targets that are moving in and out of distances. Does the Trijicon Bullet Drop Compensators make up for the lack of magnification? I don't really get why an ACOG is so great if it is always stuck at one magnification, whereas a scope can magnify according to the proper position of the target? I know reflex sights seem to only be a replacement for iron sights, as they dont seem to reach farther than 100 yards, which is a disadvantage in a real battle situation.
 
"What I want is a scope that can be optimized for CQB as well as can quickly acquire a target up to 300-400 yards or so (mid range)."

sounds like an ACOG wit donut reticle and BAC to me.

I have the ta-11 with donut reticle and BAC{went with the ta-11 mostly becuase of the three inches of eye relief} and I find it to my needs better than the CQ/T, Aimpoints, and the EOTech holosights all of which ive gotten to play around with.
 
Before I begin to try and answer your questions, I would first recommend you get some formal training with a carbine. It seems like a big investment; but it will do a great deal to improve your skills with a rifle and more importantly, it will give you the background you need to answer some of the questions you are asking yourself. Many of these questions cannot be answered by other people because they hinge heavily on personal preference and individual factors that only you know. A training course is not only a great place to gain knowledge, it is a chance to test more gear (your classmates, the trainer's, etc.) in a few days than most people will even get to touch in a year.

Bartholmew, I know I have heard a lot of complaints about it, but what would you think of Leupold CQ/T compared to Trijicon ACOG?

Depends on which of the many types of ACOG you are comparing it to. If you are comparing it to the TA01 or TA31 4x32 ACOGs, then the CQT will be faster close-in at 1x and nowhere near as good as the ACOG at 3x. There are several threads on this exact subject if you search the Rifle Country forum.

Do you think ACOG 3x is better for quickly picking up targets than CQ/T? Many people I hear complain about the CQ/T because it is bulky and such. Some say it is slow in acquisiton. I thought it may be desirable by the fact that it has variable magnification and a laser sight.

The CQT has an illuminated reticle, not a laser sight. The CQT is not a reflex-style sight and is dependent on good cheek weld and eye position like any other magnified sight. At 1x, it will be fast; but at 3x it has a short eye relief, small exit pupil and a very little tolerance for less than exact cheek weld.

Did you look at either of the links I referenced earlier? Those links can better show you two important things you need to understand:

1. The tenths of a second differences we are talking in speed on close (15yds) targets with reflex sights, variables, and fixed magnification ACOGs.
2. Why magnification can be important to acquiring a target even if it doesn't help your speed

What is more imporant? This is very difficult question for me. I could say it is acquiring a target at close range. But if two BG's are attacking me: One at 50 yards and simultaneously another at 400 yards, I can say both would be equally imporatnt to me.

Imagine the various realistic scenarios for you being attacked and decide what range is more likely. The military has determined that something like 98% of all infantry combat takes place under 300yds and 90% of it under 100yds. The military likely has a much less restrictive rules of engagement than you will have as well. Look at the sightlines on areas you plan to defend, what kinds of ranges are even possible?

The problem I hear with Trijicon's is lack of eye relief. At 3x or 4x, I can see that a close target would be hard to acquire, because of small FOV.

Again, depends on the model. The 4x32 ACOGs have about 1.4" of eye relief; but they also have an 8mm exit pupil that allows for some flexibility in head position. The 3x30 and 3.5x35 ACOGs have about 2.4" of eye relief and 10mm exit pupils. This means more flexibility for shooting while moving or shooting from odd positions.

Let me give an example, if I have Scope X, with a 5mm exit pupil and 2" of eye relief, my head has to be in a fairly exact position in order to even see the reticle. To the extent it makes me use the same cheek weld, this is good; but it also means if I shoulder the rifle sloppy or recoil/movement bounces the sight around that I might lose the sight picture entirely. The longer eye relief combined with a big exit pupil means better lowlight performance and it also means that even if I miss my cheek weld, I can still see the reticle. The point of impact will change with the different cheek weld; but at close range I can be accurate enough and still quick.

However, target acquisition can be a problem at close ranges with the small field of view. One problem I have with my 3.5x35 ACOG (TA11) is that when shooting at brown IPSC targets while moving, I will occasionally "bounce" over to a different target and not realize it due to the fact that all brown targets look the same and the field of view issue.

Also, without a variable magnifier, wouldn't be fixed at a certain magnification bea disadvantage for targets that are moving in and out of distances. Does the Trijicon Bullet Drop Compensators make up for the lack of magnification?

The BDC is only useful past 300m for the most part. How likely is it you'll be shooting defensively past 300m? Maybe you should tell me more about the type of scenarios you envision happening?

I don't really get why an ACOG is so great if it is always stuck at one magnification, whereas a scope can magnify according to the proper position of the target?

Well, the ACOG is very durable. It has enough magnification to make target acquisition and accuracy at realistic combat ranges better, while at the same time not having so much you can't use it closer.

The ACOG, like all general purpose optics, is a set of compromises. Since you haven't been very specific about how you plan to use it, it is difficult to offer an opinion on whether that set of compromises will work for your uses or whether something else would be more appropriate.

I know reflex sights seem to only be a replacement for iron sights, as they dont seem to reach farther than 100 yards, which is a disadvantage in a real battle situation.

I don't think you have a good understanding of what you are talking about and that is hindering your efforts to answer your questions. This is why I think formal instruction would be a great value for you (and just about anyone really).

FWIW, the reflex sights offer many advantages over irons. They do not require a consistent cheek weld. They only require sighting in a single plane. They are much faster on target.

A red-dot/reflex sight will easily reach beyond 100yds and you can make fast hits on silhouettes out to 300yds easily (and beyond that with practice). However, because these sights are unmagnified, you still have to see and acquire the target. On a range, not so hard; but even there, the dot will be large in proportion to the target and you may need a few tenths of a second more compared to a magnified optic. Off the range, the magnified optic may be necessary to even see the target in the first place plus the small speed advantage at distance. However as that distance closes, the magnification, field of view and necessity for a good cheek weld will slow down your times so that around 100yds the red-dot/reflex starts to win out more often.
 
The ACOG is extremely durable. There's a story out there somewhere of a Marine who, after having his rifle damaged in a firefight, discovered that his ACOG had stopped a 7.62x39mm bullet halfway though the optic. How many riflescopes are out there that can not just deflect, but actually stop a bullet?

Edit: here it is - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1269790/posts

Seems I remembered incorrectly; not a 7.62x39mm AK bullet, but rather a more powerful sniper rifle bullet, probably 7.62x54R from a Dragunov or somesuch.
 
I'm not sure if that is meaningful. I remember that Myth Busters where they were trying to shoot down the tube of a scope aka Carlos Hathcock. There were several bullets stopped by whatever scope they were using. The fact is that with the multiple glass elements set in the long metal tube a bullet shot "down the tube" will most likely get stopped. I doubt they were using the highest quality scope either. Not saying the ACOG is not tough but other scopes are just as tough. There is a guy over at the optics talk forum that ran over his super sniper with his truck and it did not lose zero.
 
From my recollection of that episode, the bullets weren't actually stopped, merely deflected, going off-center and out the sides of the scope and suchlike. They revisited the issue in a later episode and figured out basically that they were doing it wrong; again my memory is shaky here but I think it was because they used commercial soft-points as opposed to military FMJ; the soft point would deform and change course whereas the FMJ would penetrate in a straight line.
 
I'm just saying the ACOG uses the same optical grade glass as any other good scope and I probably any military grade scope would have done the same thing in the same situation.

Episode Synopsis:

Using a police industry standard SWAT sniper rifle and standard police match ammunition, the MythBusters fired several shots at a scoped rifle mounted on a ballistics gel dummy. Unfortunately, the bullet was unable to hit the dummy. The bullet was either stopped or deflected by the multiple layers of lenses in the scope, leaving the dummy relatively unharmed. Without any clear evidence that a bullet can penetrate a sniper scope, the MythBusters decided to label the myth as busted.
*This myth was originally labeled "busted", but due to much debate by viewers it was revisited in episode 75. Using a period-accurate scope (this myth originates from reports of Carlos Hathcock in the Vietnam War), it was found to be plausible.
 
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