Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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- Nov 14, 2007
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Good info in this thread.
Trijicon Acog vs. AIMPoint , Bushnell HOlosight, etc
- Thread starter 4Freedom
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Sorry, Bartholemew.. Please pardon my ignorance. I am new and learning. I really do appreciate your in-depth explanation this subject and it has helped me greatly. Yes, I read all the articles you sent me and even I read the entire optics section by Zak Smith. Still, since I don't have any experience in the field and still having trouble grasping some concepts, there are many things I don't understand with regards to CQB-Mid Range scopes/sights/etc. I think I am well understood with the concepts of longer range scopes, but when it comes to closer ranger combat type of sights, I get confused.
Ok, you asked me what I will be using it for? I cannot give you any definate answer here. I am a civilian who wants firearms to protect myself and my loved ones. It is true, I do travel around the world, and wouldn't mind having some gun skills overall. However, in most of these countries you cannot have guns anyway. But, most of all I have a set of rifles for various situations. The guns would be used in a wide variety of situations, so I can just say it would be a SHTF situaiton is when I would actually use my gun, outside the shooting range.
For example, There is terrorist attacking me 50ft away and another shooting and another shooting at 100m. The lights are dim and I am in an indoor combat situation. I take down my targets. Now, I walk outside and 300 m away there is a terrorist firing at me in an urban environment. He is in a building. Another terrorist is firing at me 100m away as well, hiding behind a wall. Now, I get behind a wall and fire back at my targets. I eliminate the terrorists. Later, I leave the city and I am out in the forest. SUddenly, there is a group of terrorists 150m away who starts closing in on me fast, running towards me. Lets say, there is 4 terrorists and they are moving quickly.
Well, this is the best example of what "I WOULD" use my gun and scope for. It is hypothetical and for most part I will be just using my gun for target practice. I would say I would use my gun in a combat or military style, not for hunting or sport. My main goal is versatile self-defense in a wide variety of situations. I could be sleeping in my room, BG's come knocking down my door and I need to defend my house. I could be in forest and I may be ambushed by BG's at close distance.
I know if my targets are out more than 600m, that I would go for my long range LR-308 with a long range scope, such as Leupold Mark 4ERT 8.5x25-50..
Sorry, if this hypothetical example sounds far fetched. I guess what I am saying is I want an all-purpose CQB-Mid Range scope. It sounds from my opinion that most 3x Trijicons can achieve this. Or, as you say if you are experienced with reflex sight, it may prove much superior for targets under 300+ yards, etc.
Sadly, I do not have any shooting buddies who will lend me their cool scopes/sights for me to try. Also, I do not have $2000 to spend on a training course where an expert can teach me all the correct tricks and knowledge of guns. I would really have no choice to buy one and try it for myself. So I want to make the best decision. Also, with Obama coming in power I hear tactical scopes may be banned ,so I may have a time bomb ticking.
I appreciate you patience and working with me.
Ok, you asked me what I will be using it for? I cannot give you any definate answer here. I am a civilian who wants firearms to protect myself and my loved ones. It is true, I do travel around the world, and wouldn't mind having some gun skills overall. However, in most of these countries you cannot have guns anyway. But, most of all I have a set of rifles for various situations. The guns would be used in a wide variety of situations, so I can just say it would be a SHTF situaiton is when I would actually use my gun, outside the shooting range.
For example, There is terrorist attacking me 50ft away and another shooting and another shooting at 100m. The lights are dim and I am in an indoor combat situation. I take down my targets. Now, I walk outside and 300 m away there is a terrorist firing at me in an urban environment. He is in a building. Another terrorist is firing at me 100m away as well, hiding behind a wall. Now, I get behind a wall and fire back at my targets. I eliminate the terrorists. Later, I leave the city and I am out in the forest. SUddenly, there is a group of terrorists 150m away who starts closing in on me fast, running towards me. Lets say, there is 4 terrorists and they are moving quickly.
Well, this is the best example of what "I WOULD" use my gun and scope for. It is hypothetical and for most part I will be just using my gun for target practice. I would say I would use my gun in a combat or military style, not for hunting or sport. My main goal is versatile self-defense in a wide variety of situations. I could be sleeping in my room, BG's come knocking down my door and I need to defend my house. I could be in forest and I may be ambushed by BG's at close distance.
I know if my targets are out more than 600m, that I would go for my long range LR-308 with a long range scope, such as Leupold Mark 4ERT 8.5x25-50..
Sorry, if this hypothetical example sounds far fetched. I guess what I am saying is I want an all-purpose CQB-Mid Range scope. It sounds from my opinion that most 3x Trijicons can achieve this. Or, as you say if you are experienced with reflex sight, it may prove much superior for targets under 300+ yards, etc.
Sadly, I do not have any shooting buddies who will lend me their cool scopes/sights for me to try. Also, I do not have $2000 to spend on a training course where an expert can teach me all the correct tricks and knowledge of guns. I would really have no choice to buy one and try it for myself. So I want to make the best decision. Also, with Obama coming in power I hear tactical scopes may be banned ,so I may have a time bomb ticking.
I appreciate you patience and working with me.
The Deer Hunter
Member
'Cause they want to look like they are in the military or something. You can find a decent scope for a couple hundred
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Earlier when I discussed using a particular set of compromises that works best for you, I guess what I had in mind was the type of tactics that suit you. Let me use your example to give an example of this.
Let's say I have a 4 MOA Aimpoint Comp ML2 in a standard 30mm ring mount and I encounter your scenario. In an indoor, dim-light situation, the Aimpoint is going to be very fast and tough to beat. I step outside and start taking the fire you described. With my eyes, I'd be lucky to even see anyone 300m away, plus without magnification it can be difficult to see into windows of buildings at a distance - so what do I do now? I step back inside the building. This is because my primary goal in the use of a firearm is to protect myself and my loved ones, not to eliminate terrorists or assault an objective. Even in the extremely unlikely event that the people shooting at me 300m away are there specifically for me because I am the hero of this particular action movie, they still have to enter the building if they want me. Having a fight where I meet them on their terms is not what I am interested in. If they do come inside the building after me, I have the tactical advantage of knowing the layout and an excellent optic for defending it. The key here isn't having an optic that can do all of these scenarios better than anything else - the key is recognizing the limitations of my gear and staying within those limitations as much as possible.
Hey, I want that same optic; but so far no luck. Everything you choose will have some compromise to it. You are in a doubly awkward situation of not having much trigger time so you aren't sure what compromises suit you best because you flat don't know and it is a question that only you can really answer. And yes, the hypothetical struck me as a bit far-fetched. Have you considered some research into what the most likely threats in your area are?
I've done most of my training at Tac-Pro Shooting Center. Basically $600 for a three-day course, plus 1,200 rounds of ammo and two nights in the local hotel room at $40/night. For the cost of an ACOG, you could get a lot more valuable information, confidence and the ability to actually use your weapon well.
Barring that, I would recommend you get one of the Aimpoints (Comp ML2/M2 or newer). These have enough battery life that you can just leave the sight on all the time and replace the batteries every six months and are very durable. They are some of the best sights out there for the type of defensive shooting likely to be encountered by police or civilians. These are also the sights that seem to best improve novice shooters immediately in my experience.
Really? Could you point me toward a 3x35 scope with 2.4" of eye relief and an illuminated ranging reticle that automatically adjusts brightness to ambient light for that price? I don't really need to go from 35,000' to 60' under water, so I don't need ACOG-like toughness; but I do need it to hold up to being banged around on a four-wheeler or in the back of a pick-up without losing zero or having any adjustable "features" readjust. If you can point me towards a scope that can do that for a couple of hundred, I guess I can live without 12+ years of constant use that tritium and fiber optic illumination gives and switch out batteries every eight hours or so.
Let's say I have a 4 MOA Aimpoint Comp ML2 in a standard 30mm ring mount and I encounter your scenario. In an indoor, dim-light situation, the Aimpoint is going to be very fast and tough to beat. I step outside and start taking the fire you described. With my eyes, I'd be lucky to even see anyone 300m away, plus without magnification it can be difficult to see into windows of buildings at a distance - so what do I do now? I step back inside the building. This is because my primary goal in the use of a firearm is to protect myself and my loved ones, not to eliminate terrorists or assault an objective. Even in the extremely unlikely event that the people shooting at me 300m away are there specifically for me because I am the hero of this particular action movie, they still have to enter the building if they want me. Having a fight where I meet them on their terms is not what I am interested in. If they do come inside the building after me, I have the tactical advantage of knowing the layout and an excellent optic for defending it. The key here isn't having an optic that can do all of these scenarios better than anything else - the key is recognizing the limitations of my gear and staying within those limitations as much as possible.
Hey, I want that same optic; but so far no luck. Everything you choose will have some compromise to it. You are in a doubly awkward situation of not having much trigger time so you aren't sure what compromises suit you best because you flat don't know and it is a question that only you can really answer. And yes, the hypothetical struck me as a bit far-fetched. Have you considered some research into what the most likely threats in your area are?
I've done most of my training at Tac-Pro Shooting Center. Basically $600 for a three-day course, plus 1,200 rounds of ammo and two nights in the local hotel room at $40/night. For the cost of an ACOG, you could get a lot more valuable information, confidence and the ability to actually use your weapon well.
Barring that, I would recommend you get one of the Aimpoints (Comp ML2/M2 or newer). These have enough battery life that you can just leave the sight on all the time and replace the batteries every six months and are very durable. They are some of the best sights out there for the type of defensive shooting likely to be encountered by police or civilians. These are also the sights that seem to best improve novice shooters immediately in my experience.
The Deer Hunter said:
Really? Could you point me toward a 3x35 scope with 2.4" of eye relief and an illuminated ranging reticle that automatically adjusts brightness to ambient light for that price? I don't really need to go from 35,000' to 60' under water, so I don't need ACOG-like toughness; but I do need it to hold up to being banged around on a four-wheeler or in the back of a pick-up without losing zero or having any adjustable "features" readjust. If you can point me towards a scope that can do that for a couple of hundred, I guess I can live without 12+ years of constant use that tritium and fiber optic illumination gives and switch out batteries every eight hours or so.
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Thanks for good advice. I appreciate it. Yeah, I think you have convinced me to go get the AIMPoint. I talk to a person at a scope store who told me that the UltraDot Four sight has one type of reflex or laser dot sight (I am not sure which) that has four variable dot sizes that can range from very large to small. Do you think this type of sight would be an advantage over the AIMPoint, since you can change the sizes of each dot. Does AIMPoint have any features like this?
Most people here have said the Docter sights attached to an ACOG are worthless. If you are advocating reflex sight like AIMPOit for CQB, do you think that a Docter sight on top of ACOG would not give you advantage in both situations? I know the DOcter sight is much smaller than regular Reflex sight, so you may have lot less FOV.
Anyhow, for my first purchase maybe I will just go for reflex sight, I hear AIMPoints are probably the best, since EOTechs have poor battery life and others have reticles that are hard to see in brighter conditions.
Most people here have said the Docter sights attached to an ACOG are worthless. If you are advocating reflex sight like AIMPOit for CQB, do you think that a Docter sight on top of ACOG would not give you advantage in both situations? I know the DOcter sight is much smaller than regular Reflex sight, so you may have lot less FOV.
Anyhow, for my first purchase maybe I will just go for reflex sight, I hear AIMPoints are probably the best, since EOTechs have poor battery life and others have reticles that are hard to see in brighter conditions.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Changing the reticle is a nice option; but not as nice as the battery life and durability offered by the Aimpoint, IMO. You can buy an Aimpoint with a 2MOA dot or 4MOA dot; but as far as I know, there is no adjustable dot.
On terminology...
A red-dot/reflex sight is a sight where the dot is projected onto the lens (the EOtech uses a laser to do this, most other sights use a diode). The aiming point moves around within the optic and whereever the dot is, that is where the bullet will go regardless of eye relief, cheek weld, etc.
A laser sight projects a focused beam of light from the sight onto a target. It is essentially a very tight flashlight and has issues like diffusion at range (dot gets bigger and bigger), being able to see the dot in bright ambient light, etc.
Everything else is basically a scope (magnified optic). Some have illuminated red-dot style reticles that cause people to confuse them with red dots; but unlike a red dot, the reticle is fixed in the glass and does not move. Like any other scope, it is dependent on eye-relief and cheek weld for repeatable performance.
The problem with the ACOG/Docter combo is that you need a noticeably different head position to use each sight. Not a big deal with the Docter since like all reflex/red dot style sights it is parallax free and not dependent on cheek weld; but it can sure be a problem with the ACOG which isn't like that. Having to train two different head positions can be bothersome for some people, especially guys who started with irons and have built a good cheek weld into muscle memory.
If you are using a reflex/red dot style sight correctly (both eyes open), the view from the non-dominant eye and the fact that the dominant eye is not magnified will make field of view mostly irrelevant in a dot sight.
Anyhow, for my first purchase maybe I will just go for reflex sight, I hear AIMPoints are probably the best, since EOTechs have poor battery life and others have reticles that are hard to see in brighter conditions.
Again, you should really spend the money on training. I understand the desire to buy gear first and I did the same thing myself; but training is a much better value - and the less experience you have, the better value you get out of it. I've seen guys go from total novice to outshooting people who had been shooting all their lives in three days.
For the average shooter whose idea of training is blasting a few mags through the rifle once or twice a year and who won't be dedicating any more time to it, the Aimpoint is probably going to be the biggest help.
Do you think I would be better off getting the ML2? Is the M2 mainly only used if you want night vision? Night vision would be nice, but I think it is very expensive and I cannot afford it. I see the M2 looks to be more expensive and is the top of the line. Besides night vision, what other benefits does the M2 have over the ML2? Also, for the situations I am describing CQB - Mid range combat ( like 300 yards), would you advise purchasing the 4MOA or 2MOA reticle? I am told 4MOA can obstruct the target if it is too far. What would be a good deal for an AimPoint M2 and ML2? I see some on google search. My Local FFL dealer, who is also a gunsmith, claims he can get AIMPoints, Trijicons cheaper than anyone else. How cheap would that be, if he is being honest?
Also, I will seriously consider a training school after I learn the basics of rifle use. Wow, if a person like me with no gun experience can become better than a veteran shooter in 3 days its well worth my money. Wish I knew some good shooters who could show me without draining my wallet. I think before I spend so much money I better learn the basics. I will try finding some rifle classes or trainers in my area. Also, I fear tactical scopes/sights will be banned in future, so I am thinking of getting them for that reason too, if nothing else.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Member
The ML2 is probably better for your needs. The only difference is the M2 has some very dim settings for use with night vision. Also for the ML2/M2, you are limited to 4MOA. You have to step up to the M3 or M4 to get a 2MOA option. One nice thing about the 4MOA dot is if you sight in at 50yds, you can just put the dot on the target and you'll hit within the dot out to 300yds. On prices, I haven't looked lately so I couldn't say. The Aimpoint ML2 is an older, discontinued model but there are a lot in circulation. You should have no trouble finding a cheap one used if budget is an issue.
Shung
Member
SDI 14.5" M4, GP90, ACOG TA01 NSN, 300meters-
the outer ring is less than 80cm wide
the outer ring is less than 80cm wide
Zak Smith
Member
The quote about "no reason for fixed power scope" was lifted from the article, "Optics for Practical Long-Range Shooting"-- not the article on selecting carbine optics.
Also, if you don't really know what you are going to do with the carbine and what you want the optic to do, save money and just run irons until you have the opportunity to try out some different optics in different shooting scenarios to determine what you want, and integrate what others have said about the choices.
Also, if you don't really know what you are going to do with the carbine and what you want the optic to do, save money and just run irons until you have the opportunity to try out some different optics in different shooting scenarios to determine what you want, and integrate what others have said about the choices.
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