Sir Galahad
member
And many of the people using terms like "jackboot" "gestapo" and "...Hitler is alive and well..." use the same terms that radical leftists use. Hmmmm........
Trooper shot & killed by barricaded warrant suspect
- Thread starter TheeBadOne
- Start date
- Status
hammer4nc,
I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between all of these reports. What makes the family's statement any more credible then the statements from the authorities? Don't they have a horse in this race too?
Why didn't his supportive family accompany him and his attorney to the police station so he could turn himslef in and bond out if they were so concerned?
Who is [B}we[/B]? There is not one person named or quoted. His sister publically commented in a couple of the other articles. Why has no one attached their name to this one? What about Mrs. Woodring? Not that it's required and maybe she prefers not to make any public comments, but we haven't heard anything from her.
It's no surprise they cut off the phones. You don't want him talking to anyone else unless the negotiator is in control. No you don't want to isolate the suspect, but you want to be in on the conversations that he's having. How is it for the negotiator to be telling him one thing and the unamed family members to be telling him, "Don't listen to him Scott, they have no intention of letting you out alive." Now I'm not insinuating that that's what was said. I'm just illustrating why the negotiator has to be in on all the conversations the suspect is having. How was he supposed to build a rapport with the negotiator if he was getting all kinds of input from other people. Sorry, but the story that they couild have talked him out doesn't cut it. They obviously talked to him for hours by their own admission without the knowledge of the negotiator. What did they gain? In past incidents letting familiy members try to negotiate has turned out badly.
Were there missed opportunities? Maybe....But we have no idea what they told Woodring in those hours they were in contact with him. Sorry, I can't buy this statement sight unseen. No one has attached their name to it. Why? It would have a lot more credibility to me had someone put his or her name on it.
In no way shape or form is this the fault of the police. The fact remains that even though they didn't attempt to arrest him per the alleged instructions of the family. they did go to the house, knock on the door and politely ask him to come in. Where was his supportive family then?
Scott Woodring escalated the situation at every point that it was escalated. Scott Woodring refused to peacefully submit to arrest when he was politely asked to. Scoot Woodring armed himself and barricaded himself in his house. Scott Woording shot at the police while they were trying to negotiate with him. Scott Woodring shot Trooper Marshall when the SWAT Team entered the house. Scott Woodring either set the fire or used the fire to escape. And ALL of this is ok and should be excused because he distrusted the government?
hammer4nc, benenewton, hey dudes, guess what, you've just been appointed incident commander and negotiator. Please post your operations plan and tell me how you are going to resolve this with no loss of life.
It's time to walk the walk, are you up to it?
Jeff
I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between all of these reports. What makes the family's statement any more credible then the statements from the authorities? Don't they have a horse in this race too?
Why didn't his supportive family accompany him and his attorney to the police station so he could turn himslef in and bond out if they were so concerned?
Who is [B}we[/B]? There is not one person named or quoted. His sister publically commented in a couple of the other articles. Why has no one attached their name to this one? What about Mrs. Woodring? Not that it's required and maybe she prefers not to make any public comments, but we haven't heard anything from her.
It's no surprise they cut off the phones. You don't want him talking to anyone else unless the negotiator is in control. No you don't want to isolate the suspect, but you want to be in on the conversations that he's having. How is it for the negotiator to be telling him one thing and the unamed family members to be telling him, "Don't listen to him Scott, they have no intention of letting you out alive." Now I'm not insinuating that that's what was said. I'm just illustrating why the negotiator has to be in on all the conversations the suspect is having. How was he supposed to build a rapport with the negotiator if he was getting all kinds of input from other people. Sorry, but the story that they couild have talked him out doesn't cut it. They obviously talked to him for hours by their own admission without the knowledge of the negotiator. What did they gain? In past incidents letting familiy members try to negotiate has turned out badly.
Were there missed opportunities? Maybe....But we have no idea what they told Woodring in those hours they were in contact with him. Sorry, I can't buy this statement sight unseen. No one has attached their name to it. Why? It would have a lot more credibility to me had someone put his or her name on it.
In no way shape or form is this the fault of the police. The fact remains that even though they didn't attempt to arrest him per the alleged instructions of the family. they did go to the house, knock on the door and politely ask him to come in. Where was his supportive family then?
Scott Woodring escalated the situation at every point that it was escalated. Scott Woodring refused to peacefully submit to arrest when he was politely asked to. Scoot Woodring armed himself and barricaded himself in his house. Scott Woording shot at the police while they were trying to negotiate with him. Scott Woodring shot Trooper Marshall when the SWAT Team entered the house. Scott Woodring either set the fire or used the fire to escape. And ALL of this is ok and should be excused because he distrusted the government?
hammer4nc, benenewton, hey dudes, guess what, you've just been appointed incident commander and negotiator. Please post your operations plan and tell me how you are going to resolve this with no loss of life.
It's time to walk the walk, are you up to it?
Jeff
Gmac
Member
Fubar,again.
More details emerge as to the official tactics...
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1352157&nav=0RceGmsx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
excerpt:
State police had said all along they wanted to end the standoff peacefully but were unaware of what Woodring had inside his home as far as weapons or explosives. Police had been engaging in so-called "scare tactics" such as using armored personnel carriers to circle the house, as well as detonation devices to keep their suspect on edge. Helicopters hovered day and night for surveillance and intimidation. Police never ruled out the use of force.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I tentatively withdraw an earlier speculation excluding the use of amplified Nancy Sinatra music (or soundtrack of lambs being killed), based on the above report.
I don't know what I'd do different, any comment anyone of us makes can be diismissed as Monday morning QB'ing, anyway, so we should not comment? Jeff, you apparently have LE tactical training...does the above activity fall within the bounds of barricaded suspect SOP's, as practiced in 2003?
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1352157&nav=0RceGmsx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
excerpt:
State police had said all along they wanted to end the standoff peacefully but were unaware of what Woodring had inside his home as far as weapons or explosives. Police had been engaging in so-called "scare tactics" such as using armored personnel carriers to circle the house, as well as detonation devices to keep their suspect on edge. Helicopters hovered day and night for surveillance and intimidation. Police never ruled out the use of force.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I tentatively withdraw an earlier speculation excluding the use of amplified Nancy Sinatra music (or soundtrack of lambs being killed), based on the above report.
I don't know what I'd do different, any comment anyone of us makes can be diismissed as Monday morning QB'ing, anyway, so we should not comment? Jeff, you apparently have LE tactical training...does the above activity fall within the bounds of barricaded suspect SOP's, as practiced in 2003?
Edward429451
member
Regardless, the citizens have a right to not be opressed and harassed in this manner. The police have a responsibility to not cross the line into what can reasonably be construed as tyranny, opression, and harrassment, wether they're under orders or not. Remenber the nuremburg trials? Remember the jews?
No wonder its an us vs them scenario. Thats they way they (the administration) wants it. Think outside the box boys, and embrace the citizenry as friends, family, and neighbors. Just say no to being a pawn. Pipe dream, huh?
I'm out of it, I don't want to argue.
Sigh.
No wonder its an us vs them scenario. Thats they way they (the administration) wants it. Think outside the box boys, and embrace the citizenry as friends, family, and neighbors. Just say no to being a pawn. Pipe dream, huh?
I'm out of it, I don't want to argue.
Sigh.
hammer4nc,
You are right about Monday morning quarterbacking...But that said, I don't think that would be the appropriate way to handle that type of suspect.
None of us have access to whatever pyschological profile the negotiation team prepared on the suspect. But I don't think that you could intimidate someone with his views with a massive show of force like that. In my laymans (from a pyschological profiling standpoint) I would think that conduct like that would just convince him that all of his views about the government were right and that he might as well fight to the death.
If that's true, I give you your Waco reference back and withdraw my statements about no similarities. I also wonder about the decision to enter the house if they were so unsure of what he had in there. It also seems to me like a large amount of resources to arrest a man for a simple solicitation charge.
I have a feeling there is much more to this story then we know. Perhaps in the interest of closing the rift and ending some of the us vs. them that's going on here, we should continue to follow this story and decide just what was right and wrong with what was done on both sides.
Fair enough?
Jeff
You are right about Monday morning quarterbacking...But that said, I don't think that would be the appropriate way to handle that type of suspect.
None of us have access to whatever pyschological profile the negotiation team prepared on the suspect. But I don't think that you could intimidate someone with his views with a massive show of force like that. In my laymans (from a pyschological profiling standpoint) I would think that conduct like that would just convince him that all of his views about the government were right and that he might as well fight to the death.
If that's true, I give you your Waco reference back and withdraw my statements about no similarities. I also wonder about the decision to enter the house if they were so unsure of what he had in there. It also seems to me like a large amount of resources to arrest a man for a simple solicitation charge.
I have a feeling there is much more to this story then we know. Perhaps in the interest of closing the rift and ending some of the us vs. them that's going on here, we should continue to follow this story and decide just what was right and wrong with what was done on both sides.
Fair enough?
Jeff
Orthonym
Member
So:
Where is Mr. Woodring now? Can we haul him into court, along with the bimbettes who started the whole thing, without any more people getting hurt or killed?
Where is Mr. Woodring now? Can we haul him into court, along with the bimbettes who started the whole thing, without any more people getting hurt or killed?
brownie0486
Member
Edward429451:
What amounted to grenades? Don't think so, where do you get that from? What did they use that amounted to grenades, that sounds like combat grenades when you say it, which they were NOT.
The police use flashbangs which are designed to stun the subject for a second with light, sound and percussion while they enter the room for THEIR safety. See, they don't want to get shot coming through the door. They don;t use anything that anmonts to grenades [ lie we all visualize when you speak that term ].
Wasn't the stand off something like 40 hours? Almost two days? Thats why the distractive music, due to the time involved. I'm sure they didn;t roll up and start playing your Nancy Sinatra as you suggest. Any ideas why they use loud music after many hours of standoff that go over a day? It's to keep him awake, don't want the poor boy falling asleep and getting any rest. Think he should be allowed to have some rest so he is bright eyed and bushy tailed when they enter at a later time if it is deemed necessary to end the standoff?
If you don't know why certain tactics are deployed or when, ask, but this anti-gov/anti cop attitude from some here [ including yourelf ] without any basis of knowledge on their reasoning or SOP seems just another us vs them attitude.
As to the family's comments, whether valid or not in the final analysis, are certainly suspect and already some discrepancies have been pointed out which others here tend to want to ignore to further their cause the cops did something wrong. I'm sure you can gather that the families of defendants are quoted all the time in papers and it usually goes soemthing like this:
The aunt--He was always such a good boy. Never got into trouble and was alays there for his mother who he loved dearly.
The mother---they killed my boy, why did the kill my boy? He never did anything to anyone and didn't deserve to die. He was only 22 and still a baby.
The father--can't be located
The neighbors---I always saw him going to the grocery store for his mother. He seemed like a very nice man. Never had any trouble with him. I think it is sad he had to die.
Now here's the interesting part--after all those family members have made their comments, we find that little 22 yr old Johnny f$^k stick has a criminal record several pages long starting when he was 10. B+E's, assaults, burglaries, thefts, robberies, ad infinum. That may not be the case here but it is the case all over the US on any given day if you read the papers from any major city.
Consequently, until the final analysis is in on this guy [ which it is not ]I don't hold much credence in the families statements.
As to the antenea takedown, if true, it was a good move. Would you have the police let him comm with outsiders who can or are observing their actions and possibly relaying that to the barricaded suspect so he has the intel to be where they are going to enter waiting to kill one or all of them?
Perhaps you would, or perhaps you have no training in the tactics of swat ops and have no basis to make an informed decision as to why they might take comm away, so it somehow becomes easier for you to blame the cops due to your lack of understanding in these types of situations. You attitude from your postings seems to suggest you are not objective when you don't understand something as you berate the cops actions and defend the barricader automatically without contemplating the issues, remaining objective and attempting to determine from others with that experience here through questions you may have. Course when you are not objective to begin with and are prone to the cause of the ones up against LE for any reason as in this situation it becomes easy to understand you would not be asking questions but making wild accusations against the LE community for many reasons.
No it isn't the gestapo, the gestapo did not have a rule book, nor did they need a reason to drag you from the home you were in and shoot you for NO reason at all other than your race, coler, or religious belief. See anything that resembles any of the above in this thread? Of course not, the police had a lawful warrant issued by a court, they were acting diligently for 40 some odd hours and attempted to resolve peacefully. They ASKED him to surrender, they didn't rush the house immediately and burn him out as you suggest by stating "Burn you out if you don't come out? Anybody see a pattern here? " Thats not what the cops do, what pattern?
If you are referring to waco and this event, that translates to what, 2 in the last decade [ perhaps a few more we aren't aware of ] out of hundreds of events across the US daily. That percentage seems like it is a little to samll to be claiming any patern being developed don't you think?
Inflammatory statements based on your emotions here do nothing to further the cause of keeping the us vs them from creeping closer and only incites others so inclined to not trust police actions and their intents when performing their jobs.
As to the comment on color of the law. There is none, it's the letter of the law.
benewton: "On essence, the is no EFFECTIVE defense, in the sense that if you are
exonerated, there isn't any cost to your finances or reputation."
I think you are forgetting that perhaps he was guilty of the offenses alleged. I mentioned it before here but then people tend to ignore questions they can't answer here and continue the ranting against LE's actions without full knowledge or merit. What of he was guilty of the chrages? Think maybe as a milita man he knew he didn;t want to do time and would rather stand them off? Perhaps it was "suicide by cop", though I doubt that now as he is among the missing. Would a true militai man have run? Or would he have stood for his rights as an innocent and demanded some death of honor for some cause he thought apporpriate at the time which went against the established laws of the government?
Does anyone believe that I or other LE's here have the wherewithall and funds to right an injustice on us anymore than the rst of the folks here that are not LE?
The attempt to use money as a motivator to defy the laws and lawful orders of a society is a poor excuse unless you can show somehow the police are immune to this as well. We are, for the most part, in the same boat where money and reputations are concerned if falsely accused, and we are daily as well, where is this holier than though attitude coming from like LE's are immune from this happening to them? That comment doesn;t hold as a valid reason to create a standoff for almost two days and kill an officer [ presumed for now ].
Brownie
What amounted to grenades? Don't think so, where do you get that from? What did they use that amounted to grenades, that sounds like combat grenades when you say it, which they were NOT.
The police use flashbangs which are designed to stun the subject for a second with light, sound and percussion while they enter the room for THEIR safety. See, they don't want to get shot coming through the door. They don;t use anything that anmonts to grenades [ lie we all visualize when you speak that term ].
Wasn't the stand off something like 40 hours? Almost two days? Thats why the distractive music, due to the time involved. I'm sure they didn;t roll up and start playing your Nancy Sinatra as you suggest. Any ideas why they use loud music after many hours of standoff that go over a day? It's to keep him awake, don't want the poor boy falling asleep and getting any rest. Think he should be allowed to have some rest so he is bright eyed and bushy tailed when they enter at a later time if it is deemed necessary to end the standoff?
If you don't know why certain tactics are deployed or when, ask, but this anti-gov/anti cop attitude from some here [ including yourelf ] without any basis of knowledge on their reasoning or SOP seems just another us vs them attitude.
As to the family's comments, whether valid or not in the final analysis, are certainly suspect and already some discrepancies have been pointed out which others here tend to want to ignore to further their cause the cops did something wrong. I'm sure you can gather that the families of defendants are quoted all the time in papers and it usually goes soemthing like this:
The aunt--He was always such a good boy. Never got into trouble and was alays there for his mother who he loved dearly.
The mother---they killed my boy, why did the kill my boy? He never did anything to anyone and didn't deserve to die. He was only 22 and still a baby.
The father--can't be located
The neighbors---I always saw him going to the grocery store for his mother. He seemed like a very nice man. Never had any trouble with him. I think it is sad he had to die.
Now here's the interesting part--after all those family members have made their comments, we find that little 22 yr old Johnny f$^k stick has a criminal record several pages long starting when he was 10. B+E's, assaults, burglaries, thefts, robberies, ad infinum. That may not be the case here but it is the case all over the US on any given day if you read the papers from any major city.
Consequently, until the final analysis is in on this guy [ which it is not ]I don't hold much credence in the families statements.
As to the antenea takedown, if true, it was a good move. Would you have the police let him comm with outsiders who can or are observing their actions and possibly relaying that to the barricaded suspect so he has the intel to be where they are going to enter waiting to kill one or all of them?
Perhaps you would, or perhaps you have no training in the tactics of swat ops and have no basis to make an informed decision as to why they might take comm away, so it somehow becomes easier for you to blame the cops due to your lack of understanding in these types of situations. You attitude from your postings seems to suggest you are not objective when you don't understand something as you berate the cops actions and defend the barricader automatically without contemplating the issues, remaining objective and attempting to determine from others with that experience here through questions you may have. Course when you are not objective to begin with and are prone to the cause of the ones up against LE for any reason as in this situation it becomes easy to understand you would not be asking questions but making wild accusations against the LE community for many reasons.
No it isn't the gestapo, the gestapo did not have a rule book, nor did they need a reason to drag you from the home you were in and shoot you for NO reason at all other than your race, coler, or religious belief. See anything that resembles any of the above in this thread? Of course not, the police had a lawful warrant issued by a court, they were acting diligently for 40 some odd hours and attempted to resolve peacefully. They ASKED him to surrender, they didn't rush the house immediately and burn him out as you suggest by stating "Burn you out if you don't come out? Anybody see a pattern here? " Thats not what the cops do, what pattern?
If you are referring to waco and this event, that translates to what, 2 in the last decade [ perhaps a few more we aren't aware of ] out of hundreds of events across the US daily. That percentage seems like it is a little to samll to be claiming any patern being developed don't you think?
Inflammatory statements based on your emotions here do nothing to further the cause of keeping the us vs them from creeping closer and only incites others so inclined to not trust police actions and their intents when performing their jobs.
As to the comment on color of the law. There is none, it's the letter of the law.
benewton: "On essence, the is no EFFECTIVE defense, in the sense that if you are
exonerated, there isn't any cost to your finances or reputation."
I think you are forgetting that perhaps he was guilty of the offenses alleged. I mentioned it before here but then people tend to ignore questions they can't answer here and continue the ranting against LE's actions without full knowledge or merit. What of he was guilty of the chrages? Think maybe as a milita man he knew he didn;t want to do time and would rather stand them off? Perhaps it was "suicide by cop", though I doubt that now as he is among the missing. Would a true militai man have run? Or would he have stood for his rights as an innocent and demanded some death of honor for some cause he thought apporpriate at the time which went against the established laws of the government?
Does anyone believe that I or other LE's here have the wherewithall and funds to right an injustice on us anymore than the rst of the folks here that are not LE?
The attempt to use money as a motivator to defy the laws and lawful orders of a society is a poor excuse unless you can show somehow the police are immune to this as well. We are, for the most part, in the same boat where money and reputations are concerned if falsely accused, and we are daily as well, where is this holier than though attitude coming from like LE's are immune from this happening to them? That comment doesn;t hold as a valid reason to create a standoff for almost two days and kill an officer [ presumed for now ].
Brownie
Intune
Member
Guess it depends who you are and how "annoying" you are to the powers that be whether they burn you out and/or shoot you. I'm with Jeff in that we need to find out more about this to decide. But it sure has the potential to reek.
05-13) 11:20 PDT NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) --
It was "human nature" that police showed restraint dealing with an armed and distraught fellow officer, even though he held them at bay for four hours while firing several shots, a police spokesman says.
Sgt. Mark Nelson, upset over a love triangle with other officers, shot at patrol cars and into the ground before surrendering Friday.
Two nearby elementary schools were locked down during the confrontation and neighborhood residents were telephoned and told to stay in their homes.
Nelson, 35, was the only one injured, suffering a minor flesh wound from a ricocheting bullet.
"I've been hearing of calls from people who said, 'He should have been killed,"' spokesman Don Aaron said Saturday.
But Aaron said Nelson had been a policeman for 13 years and was well known by many of the officers on the scene.
"Did they show restraint? I'd have to say yes," Aaron said. "If a person put themselves in the shoes of the responding officers where someone they knew very well had had a breakdown, then they too would have shown some restraint. It's human nature."
Nelson was upset about a romantic relationship between two other police officers, Melissa Vangyija and Coleman Womack. Aaron said there's no policy against officers dating.
Nelson's lawyer, Worrick Robinson, said Vangyija and Nelson had dated several months ago after Nelson and his wife separated. Aaron said Nelson saw Vangyija and Womack at a police rally last week and began calling her repeatedly at her home.
Vangyija told fellow officers about the calls and said she feared Nelson might be suicidal.
A team of officers including Nelson's supervisor went to his house and arrested him early Friday, Aaron said, but Nelson was released after evaluation by a crisis team, which scheduled another counseling session with him.
Nelson's police weapon was confiscated, Aaron said, but he got a personal gun and went to confront Womack at his home later Friday.
Womack and Vangyija escaped out the back of the house. Aaron said Nelson saw Womack run across the street and fired at him. Womack shot back, but both men missed.
The first two officers who arrived on the scene said Nelson opened fire in their direction, "but they didn't think he was actually firing at them," Aaron said.
Nelson was charged with three counts of felony aggravated assault, and more charges may follow. He was released on $15,000 bail and checked himself into the psychiatric ward at Vanderbilt University Medical Center on Saturday, Robinson said.
05-13) 11:20 PDT NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) --
It was "human nature" that police showed restraint dealing with an armed and distraught fellow officer, even though he held them at bay for four hours while firing several shots, a police spokesman says.
Sgt. Mark Nelson, upset over a love triangle with other officers, shot at patrol cars and into the ground before surrendering Friday.
Two nearby elementary schools were locked down during the confrontation and neighborhood residents were telephoned and told to stay in their homes.
Nelson, 35, was the only one injured, suffering a minor flesh wound from a ricocheting bullet.
"I've been hearing of calls from people who said, 'He should have been killed,"' spokesman Don Aaron said Saturday.
But Aaron said Nelson had been a policeman for 13 years and was well known by many of the officers on the scene.
"Did they show restraint? I'd have to say yes," Aaron said. "If a person put themselves in the shoes of the responding officers where someone they knew very well had had a breakdown, then they too would have shown some restraint. It's human nature."
Nelson was upset about a romantic relationship between two other police officers, Melissa Vangyija and Coleman Womack. Aaron said there's no policy against officers dating.
Nelson's lawyer, Worrick Robinson, said Vangyija and Nelson had dated several months ago after Nelson and his wife separated. Aaron said Nelson saw Vangyija and Womack at a police rally last week and began calling her repeatedly at her home.
Vangyija told fellow officers about the calls and said she feared Nelson might be suicidal.
A team of officers including Nelson's supervisor went to his house and arrested him early Friday, Aaron said, but Nelson was released after evaluation by a crisis team, which scheduled another counseling session with him.
Nelson's police weapon was confiscated, Aaron said, but he got a personal gun and went to confront Womack at his home later Friday.
Womack and Vangyija escaped out the back of the house. Aaron said Nelson saw Womack run across the street and fired at him. Womack shot back, but both men missed.
The first two officers who arrived on the scene said Nelson opened fire in their direction, "but they didn't think he was actually firing at them," Aaron said.
Nelson was charged with three counts of felony aggravated assault, and more charges may follow. He was released on $15,000 bail and checked himself into the psychiatric ward at Vanderbilt University Medical Center on Saturday, Robinson said.
Orthonym
Member
Ah, yes, Intune, I see now,
some animals really ARE more equal than others! (apologies to Mr. Blair/Orwell)
some animals really ARE more equal than others! (apologies to Mr. Blair/Orwell)
Intune
Member
I ask again (emblematically) why did they choose that particular time to go in? I wish the police would issue a statement. That decision was the crux for a loss of life. The public shouldn’t have to wait ‘till they get all their ducks in a row for an after-action report. If it was that important to go in right then give us the reason.
State Police Inspector Barry Getzen said he assumed Woodring might still be in the basement, though he would not say whether he was dead. Getzen said police fired percussion rounds in the house to temporarily disable anyone inside because they did not believe Woodring would come out. They believed he may have had supplies to last a long time in a standoff.
Getzen said percussion rounds are capable of starting a fire, which he called unintended consequences.
Are these stronger/more flammable than hand-tossed flashbangs? How many did they fire? How many does it take to ignite the average household? With carpeting? Drapes? Studies done?
OR… Shoot them in anyway BECAUSE...
A. They immobilize him and capture the pondscumsucking dirtbag.
B. They don’t immobilize him but get the upper hand and they kill pssd when he tries to defend himself.
C. They don’t immobilize him and he shoots a police officer.
D. The dwelling is set ablaze and he is forced to come out and surrender.
E. The dwelling is set ablaze and he comes out shooting & goes down in a hail of gunfire.
TWO out of the five scenarios are acceptable to me. Their ratio of acceptability must have been MUCH higher or they wouldn’t have done it. A,B, D & E are a job well done, let’s be careful in there men?
F. An officer gets killed and the suspect escapes. THAT was the one they didn’t factor into the equation. I believe they had a bone to pick with this guy. I think that bone just got a whole lot bigger.
State Police Inspector Barry Getzen said he assumed Woodring might still be in the basement, though he would not say whether he was dead. Getzen said police fired percussion rounds in the house to temporarily disable anyone inside because they did not believe Woodring would come out. They believed he may have had supplies to last a long time in a standoff.
Getzen said percussion rounds are capable of starting a fire, which he called unintended consequences.
Are these stronger/more flammable than hand-tossed flashbangs? How many did they fire? How many does it take to ignite the average household? With carpeting? Drapes? Studies done?
OR… Shoot them in anyway BECAUSE...
A. They immobilize him and capture the pondscumsucking dirtbag.
B. They don’t immobilize him but get the upper hand and they kill pssd when he tries to defend himself.
C. They don’t immobilize him and he shoots a police officer.
D. The dwelling is set ablaze and he is forced to come out and surrender.
E. The dwelling is set ablaze and he comes out shooting & goes down in a hail of gunfire.
TWO out of the five scenarios are acceptable to me. Their ratio of acceptability must have been MUCH higher or they wouldn’t have done it. A,B, D & E are a job well done, let’s be careful in there men?
F. An officer gets killed and the suspect escapes. THAT was the one they didn’t factor into the equation. I believe they had a bone to pick with this guy. I think that bone just got a whole lot bigger.
Intune
Member
brownie0486 said:
“If you are referring to waco and this event, that translates to what, 2 in the last decade [ perhaps a few more we aren't aware of ] out of hundreds of events across the US daily. That percentage seems like it is a little to samll to be claiming any patern being developed don't you think?â€
Well, sir, I think your take on it might be somewhat different if you were one of the 74 men, women & children murdered or the officer gunned down in this “event.†I especially like your line- “… perhaps a few more we aren't aware of…†That is a true gem. 2, 4, 40, aw, what the hay.
I’ve read a lot of your posts and they usually reinforce (for me) why the us vs. them attitude exists. There always seems to be an undercurrent of superiority. This could be my wanton imagination & due possibly to my sensitive status as a civilian. If I may be so bold as to enquire, why was your tenure as an officer of the peace so short? You seem to have a true affinity for everything about the job and its members. I too have a great respect for LEO’s, particularly those who adhere to the law.
“If you are referring to waco and this event, that translates to what, 2 in the last decade [ perhaps a few more we aren't aware of ] out of hundreds of events across the US daily. That percentage seems like it is a little to samll to be claiming any patern being developed don't you think?â€
Well, sir, I think your take on it might be somewhat different if you were one of the 74 men, women & children murdered or the officer gunned down in this “event.†I especially like your line- “… perhaps a few more we aren't aware of…†That is a true gem. 2, 4, 40, aw, what the hay.
I’ve read a lot of your posts and they usually reinforce (for me) why the us vs. them attitude exists. There always seems to be an undercurrent of superiority. This could be my wanton imagination & due possibly to my sensitive status as a civilian. If I may be so bold as to enquire, why was your tenure as an officer of the peace so short? You seem to have a true affinity for everything about the job and its members. I too have a great respect for LEO’s, particularly those who adhere to the law.
brownie0486
Member
Intune:
I didn't diminish any of those people at Waco who lost their lives including the LE's as you suggest, btw, why did you suggest I did?. And there may be more as stated and it doesn't diminish them at all either.
Merely pointed to the fact that one other posted like it was the norm, and it's not. Facts disprove that comment as he stated.
Superiority? I'm a regular citizen as many here are and have no powers over anyone. I do have some very specific knowledge about law enforcement however from years on the streets.
That gives me both sides of the coin to consider and experience at both ends, from both points of view.
Been stopped while operating a MV, had property taken away illegally [ which I got back later ], been hastled by cops continuously when on assignments, had them at the house over things, on a fed list, just like quite a few here. Still no criminal record, gun permits in order, taking assignments, etc etc.
Does any of this sound familiar? It should, others relate and berate about their own similiar problems in these areas quite frequently here. I probably run into more problems and situations with LE's than most here due to the nature of the assignments. Ya, I was on 9 years for two different depts, and now train them as well as.
I just don't post these types of experiences like others because I know the job they have to perform. I also know that there are bad apples among them, and some incompetants as well. I don't believe I or any other LE here ever said there weren't. I saw what people post up close and personal while under their umbrella.
You asked so I'll answer your question, though I will not expound further. I took a chief down from a neighboring town. That changed the course of history.
I call em the way I see em. You don't have to agree with it not do I expect you or others to do so.
Brownie
I didn't diminish any of those people at Waco who lost their lives including the LE's as you suggest, btw, why did you suggest I did?. And there may be more as stated and it doesn't diminish them at all either.
Merely pointed to the fact that one other posted like it was the norm, and it's not. Facts disprove that comment as he stated.
Superiority? I'm a regular citizen as many here are and have no powers over anyone. I do have some very specific knowledge about law enforcement however from years on the streets.
That gives me both sides of the coin to consider and experience at both ends, from both points of view.
Been stopped while operating a MV, had property taken away illegally [ which I got back later ], been hastled by cops continuously when on assignments, had them at the house over things, on a fed list, just like quite a few here. Still no criminal record, gun permits in order, taking assignments, etc etc.
Does any of this sound familiar? It should, others relate and berate about their own similiar problems in these areas quite frequently here. I probably run into more problems and situations with LE's than most here due to the nature of the assignments. Ya, I was on 9 years for two different depts, and now train them as well as.
I just don't post these types of experiences like others because I know the job they have to perform. I also know that there are bad apples among them, and some incompetants as well. I don't believe I or any other LE here ever said there weren't. I saw what people post up close and personal while under their umbrella.
You asked so I'll answer your question, though I will not expound further. I took a chief down from a neighboring town. That changed the course of history.
I call em the way I see em. You don't have to agree with it not do I expect you or others to do so.
Brownie
Travis McGee
Member
Folks who reported seeing the video say the "flash-bang" grenades lifted the roof off the house.
So either the LEOs used "outside only" concussion grenades inside, intentionally to destroy the house, or the perp left the gas on.
So either the LEOs used "outside only" concussion grenades inside, intentionally to destroy the house, or the perp left the gas on.
brownie0486
Member
Travis,
If indeed the roof lifted off the house, there was possibly an explosion as mentioned.
No grenade or flashbang would be capable of such destruction. It would not be the first time a perp attempted, during a barricade, to take all the LE with him that he could by setting the house up once the standoff ocurred.
Brownie
If indeed the roof lifted off the house, there was possibly an explosion as mentioned.
No grenade or flashbang would be capable of such destruction. It would not be the first time a perp attempted, during a barricade, to take all the LE with him that he could by setting the house up once the standoff ocurred.
Brownie
TheeBadOne
Member
The strawman lives and breaths within
Intune
Member
It sure does diminish those lives to state it the way you did. Maybe I’m reading it wrong. To me it reads like, “hey, we torched a few a couple of times in ten years, maybe more than a few but it’s not like we torch ‘em ALL the time…†Like I said, maybe it’s me. I could be imagining an attitude. I don’t want to go back & forth with ya ‘cause it’ll get this thread closed.
We had a funeral today for two Wilson County officers who lost their lives a couple of days ago because two young women decided to steal a car in Knoxville and start a multiple jurisdiction police pursuit halfway across the state where it ended in Mt. Julliet. This princess with a long rap sheet wasn’t gonna get tagged by that nasty ol spike strip across the road. No way. They had busted her before using that sneaky thing in ANOTHER stolen car. So she sped up to around 100 mph and plowed over the two officers standing on the side of the road, losing control of the vehicle in the process. We have the death penalty in TN. It won’t bring those officers back but she’ll never get another try at anyone else.
Because I feel really bad for these officers and their families and really disgusted towards those girls doesn’t make me pro-LEO.
That I have the sneaking suspicion that these agencies in MI or one in particular local had something or things against this guy and might not have been as patient as they should have been does not make me anti-LEO.
Case by case… Just like if I had to punch or shoot somebody. Better be within the law. Nothin' more, nothin' less.
We had a funeral today for two Wilson County officers who lost their lives a couple of days ago because two young women decided to steal a car in Knoxville and start a multiple jurisdiction police pursuit halfway across the state where it ended in Mt. Julliet. This princess with a long rap sheet wasn’t gonna get tagged by that nasty ol spike strip across the road. No way. They had busted her before using that sneaky thing in ANOTHER stolen car. So she sped up to around 100 mph and plowed over the two officers standing on the side of the road, losing control of the vehicle in the process. We have the death penalty in TN. It won’t bring those officers back but she’ll never get another try at anyone else.
Because I feel really bad for these officers and their families and really disgusted towards those girls doesn’t make me pro-LEO.
That I have the sneaking suspicion that these agencies in MI or one in particular local had something or things against this guy and might not have been as patient as they should have been does not make me anti-LEO.
Case by case… Just like if I had to punch or shoot somebody. Better be within the law. Nothin' more, nothin' less.
Edward429451
member
If you watch the waco tape you see the senate hearing (or whatever) they had and first you see charles schumer talking like you do about flashbangs, like they're a firecracker. Then you see another guy (Cavanaugh?) setting the record straight saying "yes, certainly flashbangs can injure or kill..."
I read an account of some military guys training somewhere and they tossed in a flashbang into a room of an (abandoned) training house, and some poor locals were squatting there, and it F@#$%d them all up. stopped the excercise, hospital time, etc..
I was being fair and objective in saying what 'amounted' to grenades.If they're so safe, maybe you'll let me lob one at you, hmmm? This is war type tactics and is prohibited by the people on our soil. If the standing army uses them anyway, well I guess anything goes on either side.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure why they use them. Easier and cheaper than waiting them out, spreads 'fear of the gest, err, authority' making people easier to control thry fear. SOP huh? thanks for the tip.
Are you suggesting that the voice of the people are immediately suspect, but the cops are immediately not? What a ridiculous and yet predictable stance for the furtherance of the administrations agenda..
Look man, this guy is not a third world dictator with oil & WMD's. It was a citizen with an alledged solicitation charge. Armoured vehicles circling, choppers overhead, flashbangs, zipguns, intimidation...(tanks driving through the front wall of house saying "THIS IS NOT AN ASSAULT" (WACO)), grenades throu the windows (this is not an assault, its for our officers safety!!!) Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??? Thats WAR bubba. Did they even adhere to geneva convention rules for the poor guy? Doubt it. What kind of mindless serfs would you have us be if we can't even make a judgement call based on the observable behavior of the cops or assault team as it were??
If you didn't see anything like that in the thread, then your comprehension must be a little low, or you're reading with a biased eye. Attempt to resolve peacefully a solicitation charge? Would the peacefully part be the grenades or the armoured vehicles or the choppers? Oh wait, I see no mention of the choppers delivering indirect fire through the roof as they did in waco, so that must be the peacefully part. Hitler asked the jews to surrender peacefully also, right before they brought a wheeled gun around the corner to blow the house to smithereens. Shall we expect this soon also? ("Well cheif, we thought they mightv'e rigged the doors and windows, so we wanted to be safe and still get home in time to watch the game.."). So you see no pattern huh? You crack me up.
No, I do not. A few here, a few there, its ok, go back and watch TV? Does it have to be in the millions like in Germany before we're allowed credence to our suspicions?
Good. QUESTION AUTHORITY, PEOPLE. Things may not be as they seem or want you to believe.
Standard textbook jbt response. I think Hitler said the same thing.
The sad thing is that its hard to differentiate between jbt's and good officers.They wear the same uniform. I notice no response from you on the officers responsibility to do whats right, regardless of orders. Interesting.
Preacherman
Member
Folks, we're generating more heat than light again...
- Status
