Trooper shot & killed by barricaded warrant suspect

[Chris Rhines]

Cosmoline:

Why do you keep posting these?

I've been wondering this myself.

I hope that the intention behind these postings is not to use emotional stories to browbeat us into overlooking criminal actions and rights violations perpetrated by sworn LEOs.

- Chris

 

[Rebel Gunman HK]

Looks to me like an us vs. them issue. Peoples nature is to compete and team up, whatever. I feel strongly for both sides. I feel sorry for the Officer that was killed and I believe that Police Officers have a very difficult job, having to balence their safety vs. treating everybody with the respect they deserve. They do have a job to do, but damn there are alot of laws out there. Frickin stupid laws! Just look at our struggle with people trying to take our guns away! But anyway.. I think that putting police officers in a position to go into somebody's house in a SEIGE (and it was a siege) over a lame prostitution warrant is retarded. When you have to enter an area to get an armed man who you cant see and start shooting frickin missles or whatever into his house, it dosent take a genius to know that somebody is gonna get killed. Usually the BG, cause the police use our tax money to try and become the Special Forces and get all the kick ??? guns and some "tactical" training. All to be used to get a guy in a hose with a gun and a prostitution warrant. Geez. I just dont think its worth any cops life to storm a home tryin to get a pimp. Maybe a murder, but he hasnt hurt anyone.. give him a break. Dont blow up his house and send in the SEALS. Anyway. I wish people could get along more with the Police, who are supposed to be working for us. And I wish Police could get rid of that us vs. them mentality. But again, thats human nature. Damn I typed alot. Lets just try to calm down and have some compassion for the other "side". Put yourself in their shoes. I know I have changed everybodies minds. Have a nice night.

 

[brownie0486]

Chris Rhines states:

"I hope that the intention behind these postings is not to use emotional stories to browbeat us into overlooking criminal actions and rights violations perpetrated by sworn LEOs."

Chris, I don't think you have to worry about that too much here, seems quite a few make it a point to post such things quite often, as in more than regularly. How do I know? I interject here and there from time to time when they pop up.

Though I can't answer for TheeBadOne posting these, I don't often visit the site he has been purported to be accessing the info from and consequently I learn of events that have happened which are worth discussion, at least as much so as the anti-establishment crowd that hangs here [ which I enjoy immensely ].

Do you really feel browbeaten by TheeBadOne's posts? Well, it wouldn't surprise me at all because thats exactly how I've felt to some extent on several ocassions from others "postings about criminal actions and rights violations perpetrated by sworn LEOs."


Brownie

 

[benewton]

agricola:

You're out of this one since your society requires all to submit to anyone at any time for any reason, else they're jailed by the crown. Damned good thing, I think,that, so far as I know, drawing and quartering has gone by the boards.

brownie:

" As to the money issues stated about not being able to defend yourself without being financally secure--------that gives him the right to resist the lawful warrant of arrest?"

Of course it would, since you can die on your feet, or you can die on your knees, but, in either case, you're screwed.

Did it enter your mind that he could have been a threat, defensively, to the LEOs forcing entry, but to no one else?

In the end, of course, it'lll be a "good shoot" by the cops.

You might want to think, for a second or two, that there are those of us who don't truely believe the results of the police investigating themselves, even if they're supported by the local DA, which, in essence, means the government that they work for.


brownie:

One last thing.

We have, on line, the "End of Watch" list, and sad it is.

At which point can we expect to see, in detail, the "We Made a Mistake: The cost" thread?

Or, perhaps, you believe that money out of the taxpayers pockets compensates for LEO errors, or, more likely, that the people need not know of the errors of the elite?
In either case, or pick your own, please tell me how money compensates the dead, since that was the injured party.

 

[Jeff White]

Us vs. Them....

Who has the us vs. them attitude around here? I don't think it's the peace officers who are members. One of the reasons I'm here is because I want to try to bridge the gap that is forming. In the early days of TFL, Rich considered a closed forum for LEOs and the military. The general concensus was that it would only further the us vs. them mentality. If someone care to go back and do a search you can find the thread. Search under my name as a poster. It was in late 98 or early 99.

Ask a question from one of the officers here and you'll get a straight answer. Hardly us vs. them, especially towards someone you've probably never met.

Chris,
What personal knowledge do you have of all these criminal actions and rights violations by sworn LEOs? Is this something you have firsthand knowledge of, or is it something you feel is going on all over the place because of some well publicized stories?

Then there is this from 2nd Amendment;

Slap a sex crime accusation against someone, or drugs, then kill them if they don't immediately fold and go peaceably into the gulag where most people lack the cash to ever see the light of day again. Either way we know only what the "authorities" tell us. And, of course, most people will brand the deceased a "dirtbag" based on the charges alone. In reality we have no idea if he was innocent, guilty, the target of some form of persecution(local, political or otherwise) or what. And in the end, if a Totalitarian State ever arrives, whether the first thrust be gun confiscation or not how do you think "they" will take "you" down? A straight forward assault because you are standing up for your rights? No, they'll label you a sex offender or a druggie or a "terrorist" and put paid to you however they can.

I ask again sir, do you have first hand knowledge that this is going on? Do you guys think that there should be a general amnesty and we should open the prison gates? Do you live in Zimbabwe or the USA?

Agricola may have this situation pegged. Often a suspect is completely cooperative until it's time to put the cuffs on, then the fight is on. Perhaps Mr. Woodring flipped out at the prospect of going to jail on a sex crimes charge. So I ask again, what were the police to have done? Pack up and leave?

Is our system so corrupt that it's a given that they framed this guy because of his anti-government views? How many people do you think would have had to be in on the conspiracy? Lets see, the girls who complained. Any witnesses. The police officer who took the report, the detective who investigated the complaint, the state's attorney or judge who issued the arrest warrant, the officers from two different agencies who tried to serve the warrant and several people in the Michigan State Police. A pretty wide and complicated conspiracy to kill one anti-government activist don't you think?

I think that there are a lot of people here who have no idea how good they have it. While there are some notable exceptions, for the most part the people of this country are served by professional police departments that enforce the laws in accordance with the standards of the community they serve. There are some bad people who are attracted to police work for the wrong reasons, and the system doesn't always do a good job of weeding them out. Some police officers do commit crimes...but some people in all professions do. No one wants these bad cops caught and prosecuted more then the good cops, who are in the majority.

Now here is the hard part for you guys. I don't know why but it is. You must understand that the police work for you. That's right they are your employees. If you don't like the way they are doing things, change it. Now this means a lot of work, because you have to become politically active. It's harder then cheering the death of an officer on the internet. You may have to elect your candidate to a position where he/she can influence how the department is run. That can be hard. But it's doable and it's the way the system is supposed to work. I have posted this in almost every cop bashing thread we have, but it's the truth. The police department that serves you locally is the easiest government agency for you to have an influence in how it's run. Become an activist, change things within the system.

Jeff

 

[Chris Rhines]

Jeff -

Is this (civil rights violations perpetrated by police officers) something you have firsthand knowledge of...

Yes.

In the spirit of fair play, I put the reverse question to you - Do you assert that police officers in the United States never commit criminal acts, and never violate people's rights?

- Chris

 

[Jeff White]

Chris,
I already have said that I know there are bad officers and I have first hand knowledge of this. There are bad peope in all professions. Police work is by no means exempt.

There are plenty of bad gunowners.....plenty of threads about them here too. But we all sure get upset when the antis paint us all with that brush. It's no different for cops, we get upset when we are all painted with the brush soiled by the bad ones among us.

Jeff

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm not trying to knock LEO's. Some are good, some are bad. Some are good but part of very bad systems. I do wonder why the endless cut-n-paste from what appears to be a memorial board, noting killings that go back many months or years.

Yeah,

What's the deal with that? Also, they are posted without any amplifying comments which might explain what the poster finds relevant to the theme of this board.

Maybe it's just a post count thing???

 

[2nd Amendment]

I ask again sir, do you have first hand knowledge that this is going on?

Yes, as a witness in a trial where an individual was framed by the police because he peed in a county officials Cheerios once too often. The fact he happened to be a member of the ICVM made him an even easier target. Start screaming "Militia Nut" and "sex fiend" and he's instantly public enemy number one. Fortunately the government thug in question was too incompetent to carry it off and the victim in question was smart enough, and wealthy enough, to surrender and fight it out in court.

And in the end? Nobody who set him up got charged. So, even though he "won" his reputation remained sullied and the real "criminals" walked. Nice, eh?

Do you guys think that there should be a general amnesty and we should open the prison gates?

What does this have to do with a situation where two men are dead and the truth will never be known? There was no trial and without a decision by a jury of ones peers any charge is nothing more than rumor and innuendo. Rumor and innuendo which sheep alays tend to believe because the "authorities" would never lie...until it happens to them. And had it never happened before do you think people would be paranoid about it happening?

Do you live in Zimbabwe or the USA

We live in the US, and hope to keep it from becoming a Zimbabwe.

Now let me ask you, do you think that in the event our government does drop off the edge into a dictatorship of whatever form they will come for you under the banner of prosecuting you for defending the Constitution and BoR? Or will they label you with something distasteful to be certain public opinion is knee-jerk on their side? We know that answer, we see some versions of it happening now and THAT is why a situation like this forces any thinking person to ask "What if...". And, once again, we'll never know for sure.

 

[JShirley]

Don't know, John. I'm trying to figure this one out, myself...

 

[Chris Rhines]

I already have said that I know there are bad officers and I have first hand knowledge of this.

Glad we agree. There are people both in your profession and outside it who would not.

It's no different for cops, we get upset when we are all painted with the brush soiled by the bad ones among us.

I don't recall ever doing this. I do recall saying that we should not allow emotional stories of cops gunned down in the line of duty to make us squeamish about aggressively challenging police corruption and civil rights abuses.

- Chris

 

[Jeff White]

2nd Amendment,

Your friend was aquitted. So the system worked. Did he seek civil remedy for the malicious prosecution? And because this happened to your friend, that means that all prosecutions are political frame ups? Once again, the big brush comes out.

Do you guys think that there should be a general amnesty and we should open the prison gates?

What does this have to do with a situation where two men are dead and the truth will never be known? There was no trial and without a decision by a jury of ones peers any charge is nothing more than rumor and innuendo. Rumor and innuendo which sheep alays tend to believe because the "authorities" would never lie...until it happens to them. And had it never happened before do you think people would be paranoid about it happening?

This has nothing to do with the situation that started the thread. But a lot to do with the general attitude that the police go around framing people who have the wrong views that is so prevalent in this thread.

Now let me ask you, do you think that in the event our government does drop off the edge into a dictatorship of whatever form they will come for you under the banner of prosecuting you for defending the Constitution and BoR? Or will they label you with something distasteful to be certain public opinion is knee-jerk on their side? We know that answer, we see some versions of it happening now and THAT is why a situation like this forces any thinking person to ask "What if...". And, once again, we'll never know for sure.

Of course they won't prosecute anyone for protecting the constitution, they will prented to rever it just like they do now.

Let's not forget who is responsible for this mess. It's not the police. It's not the girls who complained, it's Scott Allen Woodring. It doesn't matter if the charges against him were adjudicated by a jury of his peers. He had his chance for that. He could have went with the officers who initially tried to arrest him. He could have given up anytime during the 40 hour standoff. His side of the story would have been told, just as your friend's was. But for whatever reason, he chose to fight. I don't know the specifics of the charges against him, I doubt if anyone posting here does. But if it were your daughter who made the complaint, wouldn't you want it investigated? If the investigation uncovered enough evidence to warrant the filing of charges, wouldn't you want those charges to be filed? So what makes the alleged victim any different?

As soon as we decide that it's ok to resist by force then we've torn down the piers holding up the rule of law and replaced them with the rule of force. Do you think we've reached the stage where that's necessary?

My questions to you are; Is Scott Woodring a freedom fighter who died fighting an oppressive government? Or is Trooper Marshall a hero who died trying to take a felony suspect into custody? Or were they both hapless dupes who died because we have a corrupt system of justice?

Jeff

 

[Intune]

He is the only one in the house. He is not shooting at anything that moves outside. What he IS doing is defying a police order. Oh, oh. Instant “dirtbag†status. Did they look at the store tape? They had 40 hours. That wasn’t the point anymore though, was it? The DIRTBAG DEFIED a police order. Was there any “put down the rifle, Scott. Nobody’s gonna come in and hurt you.†negotiating going on? You know, lie to him and put him at ease so he’ll be easier to kill, oops, capture. Was the police officer’s life worth 41 hours? Scott’s obviously wasn’t. Why not wait him out? Klieg lights and a ring of troopers, he darn sure isn’t going anywhere. Was it a “we’ve waited long enough on this police-order-defying-dirtbag†moment? Or was it a “we can’t just stand around and let him get away with this kind of defiance or every dirtbag citizen will be pulling this crap†moment? How much patience is a life worth? If it’s 40 hours then by God let’s crank out another Federal law so every citizen dirtbag knows what to expect from our sworn to protect and serve employees. I’ll come out after 39:45 just in case our watches aren’t synchro’d (hate to give good cause for a killin’ don’tchaknow) so you can put your full weight on one knee on the back of my neck & cinch the cuffs on good & tight. After all, I KNEW better than to DEFY.

No, this wasn’t a Waco mont, this was worse. No, ahem, “hostages†to “save.â€

 

[2nd Amendment]

My "friend"(that might be too strong a word but nevermind) found some measure of justice because he had considerable money as well as connections outside the immediate area. He sought no civil case because of the additional cost. As such the justice he got is tempered by the fact there will always be those who say "Look at the perv, nut, insert epithet of your choice..." Not exactly a choice outcome.

Regardless, I am not painting with a broad brush. I'm noting the fact that people do some of these things out of fear because it DOES happen and it can cost everything you have to win...and maybe just a wee bit more than you have. As for who is responsible? We'll never know if it was the police, a girl who filed a false report, or Woodring for being what he was accused of. That is my point for finding the label "dirtbag" unacceptable. He was accused, nothing more, but the attitude of much of the public is to hang 'em high. Charged equals guilty.

Is Scott Woodring a freedom fighter who died fighting an oppressive government?

Most likely not.

Or is Trooper Marshall a hero who died trying to take a felony suspect into custody?

Quite possible, even if the charges were bogus.

Or were they both hapless dupes who died because we have a corrupt system of justice?

And there's the most likely possibility of all today.

 

[hammer4nc]

Guys,

Latest update is they couldn't find a body in the ashes...apparently he escaped. They just put out multi-state alert for him.

 

[Erik]

The posts relating the murder of officers executing or supporting traditional warrant serving cases are clearly a reaction to the more prevelant posts decrying no-knock warrants. At least that is my take on it.

---

Guys like this and the outcome are the reason no-knocks exist. Too bad he coudn't have been put down before he was afforded the opportunity to murder.

 

[Intune]

“Too bad he coudn't have been put down…â€



Well, now’s your chance. Except that NOW he knows they’re coming to kill him. The ultimate prey, eh?

 

[JShirley]

"The posts relating the murder of officers executing or supporting traditional warrant serving cases are clearly a reaction to the more prevelant posts decrying no-knock warrants. At least that is my take on it."

This poster has been posting deaths of officers from all sorts of criminal activity, not just traditional warrant service.

John
DFTT

 

[Intune]

----------------------------------
The Associated Press
----------------------------------


MUSKEGON, Mich. -- The deposed founder of the Michigan Militia plans to hold a "Third Continental Congress" to be ready to take over the country in the event the government collapses.

Norman Olson said he hopes the three-day meeting in Missouri this month will draw representatives from paramilitary groups across the United States.

"(Our) Congress will meet to discuss the crisis in America being caused by the present government, which patriots generally agree is corrupt and out of control," Olson said in a prepared statement.

"The goal of the Congress is to find solutions without having to go to war," he said. "Millions of people are being tyrannized and oppressed by the federal government."

One of the options the group plans to discuss includes the formation of "Continental Army under a Congressional Committee for Safety," Olson said.

Scott Woodring of Newaygo County, a member of the Michigan Militia, said he plans to attend the Oct. 28 meeting in Harrison, Mo.

Woodring earlier this year ran for the post of Dayton Township supervisor in rural Newaygo County on an anti-government platform modeled after the Freemen of Montana. He took about 10 percent of the Aug. 6 primary vote.

" We're going to meet and discuss what issues are most important to the nation as a whole and attempt to reach a consensus," Woodring said. "If we do, we'll formally petition the president and Congress to redress the issues."

Militia members in other states have run into legal trouble for trying to set up their own judicial and banking systems. Woodring earlier this year ran a newspaper ad promoting the "Committee for a De Jure Township."

The ad said that the purpose of the meeting was to talk about organizing the township for "judicial and other purposes."

Angela Moore, office administrator for the Newaygo County Prosecutor's office, said her staff received numerous calls from Dayton Township residents worried about Woodring's organizing.

But neither Woodring nor other freeman types in the county are breaking any laws.

"They've made themselves known, but they've done nothing illegal or dangerous," Moore said.

But if any militia organization tries to set up its own "justice system," authorities say they will step in.

"We're hearing from these people more and more," Moore said. "They're not breaking any laws, but they're annoying."

Page 1C --Four States Section.
Monday, October 14, 1996
The Joplin Globe





Rule 714.3- Never be annoying. We have time.

 

[Jeff White]

Intune,
Nowhere has any court found that you have a legal right to resist arrest. You resist in court. That's the way the system works. Might as well not have any mechanism to enforce the law if you are going to permit anyone suspected of a crime to use force to prevent their arrest.

Did they look at the store tape?

I don't know, do you? Someone reviewed the statements and evidence and decided that there was a case. It's been my experience that prosecutors don't like to take iffy cases to court. I don't know how they do things where that happened, but here, someone would have looked at the tape before a decision was made to arrest him.

Was there any “put down the rifle, Scott. Nobody’s gonna come in and hurt you.†negotiating going on?

According to the accounts that were posted here there was.

Why not wait him out? Klieg lights and a ring of troopers, he darn sure isn’t going anywhere. Was it a “we’ve waited long enough on this police-order-defying-dirtbag†moment? Or was it a “we can’t just stand around and let him get away with this kind of defiance or every dirtbag citizen will be pulling this crap†moment? How much patience is a life worth?

Only the incident commander who authorized the entry can answer that. I'm sure he is being harder on himself over it then you possibly could be. You don't really believe that the desired outcome was to kill the suspect, do you? The desired outcome was to arrest Scott Woodring without injuring him or sustaining any casualties to the officers or bystanders and with minimal property damage. As it happened, an officer is dead, Woodring has apparently escaped and the house, home to Woodring's wife is destroyed. The officer in command at the scene made a decision to effect entry based on some information he had. Maybe they thought Woodring was asleep. Maybe he told the negotiator something that made them believe they had to end this now. I don't know, you don't know. But if it's proven that they effected entry for no more of a reason then it was time to go home, I'll join you in demanding criminal and civil penalties for those involved. I just don't believe that's the way things went down.

Jeff

 

[Jeff White]

Intune,

Rule 714.3- Never be annoying. We have time.

Are you inferring that the entire incident was a set up in retaliation for something that happened nearly seven years ago?

Jeff

 

[Intune]

No. I was showing that he was already “annoying†some in the prosecutors office years ago and “inferring†that he probably became an even larger annoyance to those in power in the subsequent years. Another inference was that they didn’t take too kindly to it. It wasn’t the prosecutors house that burned to the ground. Was it?

Jeff, what this guy did was wrong whether the station incident was a crime or not. Come to my house with a warrant and I’ll tell you about the G27 on my strong side and ask you how you want to go about this civilly. Hell, you could call me on the phone and tell me to come to the station. My father was a judge and one of my bro’s an attorney. I know where this kind of stuff is to be resolved and it’s not in a conflagration. My beef is with the timing of the assault. This guy is not my kind of hero, yet… Not to be "put down" either.

 

[Intune]

Re: the incident commander- "I'm sure he is being harder on himself over it then you possibly could be."

Don't count on that. If Scott is a "dirtbag" what is this guy? A bumbling fool? An incompetent dotard? The finest LEO mind in that region? Perchance his judgment was clouded? He had been defied after all, and by one solitary citizen. Gotta rankle a true professional. Okay, a little sarcasm snuck in there. He better of had a great reason to go in that house or his butt should be guarding the motorpool in the near future.

 

[Jeff White]

Intune,
As I stated earlier, I don't know why they attempted entry. I do know a little bit about policies and training and how those decisions are made. A large agency like the Michigan State Police most likely has chapters in their policy manual with approved guidlines on how to deal with these situations. These policies are extensivly reviewed to ensure that the safety of everyone involved especially the suspect is paramount. Once the experts in tactical operations are through, legal gets a shot at them. Once the lawyers are sure that they don't open the agency and it's officers up to criminal or civil charges they become policy. These policies are constantly updated to take in lessons learned from other operations and operations conducted by other agencies. They are also changed to reflect court decisions.

I have no idea if the entry was within MSP policy. Usually you can count on very professional and disciplined conduct from a tactical unit. Unlike the myth that is often posted here and in other places, young hotdogs are not desirable members of such units. The liability is such that you only give this assignment to mature, disciplined officers. A state level unit will have a larger number of officers to draw from for this assignment then most local or county units, so you can infer that they may be even a tiny bit more disciplined and professional. They train to end the situation with no injuries to anyone. While it's recognized that sometime the suspect won't permit it to end that way, that's always the goal.

This time it didn't work out that way. Scoot Woodring apparently escaped. And no, he shouldn't be put down. That kind of talk made a cute line for Sean Connery in The Untouchables but it's not the way things should be done, and I think a majority of police officers would agree. The days of kill a cop, never make it to jail are long gone, if they were ever really here.

Jeff

 

[Intune]

Gotta crash Jeff, enjoyed it. Hope some more facts about this come out, not a good situ anyway with one dead. You did say Scoot on purpose... Didn't you? Thanks for the smile!!