Trouble setting up Dillon XL650

[RugerSteve]

I just bought a Dillon XL650, and having the worst time setting up all the dies for some reason. My other press is a Lee Pro 1000, and I never had this much trouble setting it up. I know....everyone is going to say it's a matter of tweeking, and I agree, but doesn't matter whether I adjust one way or another, it just doesn't seem to work out.
Here is my setup: st#1 (had Lee resize/decap), but bent pin) so now a Hornaday New Dimension resize/decap, die, St#2owder drop, St#3-Dillon powder check, St#4-Hornaday bullet feeder die, St#5-RCBS bullet seat/crimp die.
I had trouble with several shells not being deprimed, and checked die, and pin did no longer stuck out like it had. Tried re-adjusting pin, and could not get die apart to adjust. Finally did, and found that the thread
on the cap for pin adjustment to be scored up and pin was bent, so I went out and bought a new set of Hornaday "New Dimention"dies at Cabelas. After changing out there were still several pieces of brass that seemed to have shoved that pin up into the die, and did not decap them, and had to reset that one also.
Next is St#2, powder drop funnel. Doesn't seem to matter which way on that die adjustment that I go, whether it works or not.. I adjusted the bell enough for a bullet to sit on top of the casing by the bullet feeder die, but to me, it seems a little extreme on the expanding . If I back it off so it doesn't feel so extreme of a bell, a bullet will not sit in the casing.
On to St#4- Hornaday bullet feeder die. I am not going to use a bullet feeder machine, just the plastic tube. Will hold probably hold about 23 or so bullets at a time. Set up according to Hornaday phone customer support, and does't seem to feed a bullet consistently every time . Not sure whether the belling has any effect on that or not.
And finally St#5- I have an RCSB seat/crimp die in that station. Since I bought the new Hornaday dies I figured that I may as well use another one of that set. The RCSB is also new. I had the RCSB set up and perfect seat and crimp, but see that the Hornaday has I guess you would call it a floating bullet alignment piece that hangs down from the die.. I setup the bullet length and crimp, but will not set down in a bullet gauge if I check the barrel clearance.
I love this machine, but want to get it working ASA.
New toy and not working yet.

 

[jmorris]

On your, bent and broken decap pins. What is causing the problems? On the Lee die you can adjust the amount of force that can be transferred to the decap pin, so it will pop up vs bend. Send them a photo of your damaged one and they will send you a new one for free.

What cases are causing the damage? If you don't know, I would suggest sorting by headstamp for a while until you can figure out what cases are problem cases.

Make sure your not trying to reload berdan primed cases, one likely source for messed up pins and primers not being removed.

I never messed with the Hornady bullet feeder but the mrbullet feeders use a different powder funnel than the one Dillon supply's. There is a difference between expanding a case and bell/flare. FWIW the bullet setting on top while rotating to the next station is why I use the GSI feeders, they feed and seat at the same station.

Most folks prefer to seat and crimp in two steps enough so that they will do without the PC die and install the bullet feeder in #3, seat at 4 and crimp in 5. The only feeder that lets you "have it all" is the GSI.

 

[Lethal rx7]

Search youtube for setup videos. Sometimes watching someone do it helps you pick up on something you might be missing or skipping.

 

[quartermaster]

Agree with the post above. I have an RL 550 B. I called Dillon a few times with questions as I felt the set up instructions were not clear enough. Went to you tube and found several videos that made the set up much easier. QM

 

[stavman11]

I would suggest just starting over on each Die

Pull them all... then start with #1 get it dialed... Move to #2 etc etc etc

I just got my XL650 about 10 days ago.. and was smooth as silk to setup, Mine is for .223

I briefly had the Hornaday bullet feeder die, seems real simple... Check the Die Instructions
Raise the ram to the top of the stroke.
Screw the Die Body down until it touches the top of the case.
Lower the ram to the bottom of the stroke.
Screw the Die Body down ½ turn and lock down the Lock Ring.
At this time the die should be set.
Place 5 or 6 bullets base first into the top of the die.
Place the case into the Shell Plate in the station before the Bullet Feeder Die
so when the press rotates, the Flared Case will be inserting into the Bullet
Feeder Die. Continue to raise the Ram to the top of the stroke. You will not be
able to see or hear anything at this time.
Lower the Ram slowly.
You should be able to see a bullet that dropped on top of the case mouth. If
the bullet dropped onto the case mouth and you can see it, you should have
been able to hear a little noise coming from the collets. This is a correct
sound, it will do this every time that the collets work correctly.
If the collets didn’t drop a bullet, lower the Die Body approximately 1/16"
turn and repeat the previous 3 steps. Repeat these steps until you get a
bullet to fall onto the case every time.

Be patient, and look at all the Instructions again for the Die's. gotta be somthing simple...

Good Luck

 

[stavman11]

RCBS seat Crimp Die
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nxCzfRSeFU

Hornady Bullet Feeder Die
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJro27cx0yA

 

[GW Staar]

I agree with jmorris's observation that you most likely have some berden primed brass mixed in.....they like to break pins since they don't have a central flash hole.

As for the belled brass, Hornady requires a .030" over the bullet size bell. I used the Hornady PTX expander.....I don't know if the expander/bell is similar for the Dillon, should be. The following pictures are .45acp, but it works the same. For 9mm, .030" over is .385" at the flare.

Yes that's a lot, but it is what it is short of the expensive GSI setup.

As for the Hornady bullet feeder dies:


Above: You may need to smooth out the interior and expand the fingers just a tad, on the upper collet. The upper collet HAS to pass bullets freely until its fingers are closed by the collet under it. If it doesn't, nothing is going to feed. This is a problem only on some samples. Yours may be one. Notice the wedged upper end of this collet (slotted end) Now imagine it resting inside the lower collet on a matching inside wedge. In that state if the lower collet is pushed upward over the upper collet, the slots (fingers) are going to tighten around the bullet sitting there.

Besides illustrating what I just explained, this picture show the distance the case has to go in before the bullet releases in the lower collet....the bullet has about 1 inch to fall...is it enough to hold the bullet until the press indexes it to the seater die??? Notice it's not possible to use the weight of the other bullets in the stack, as the fingers of collet one stops them all while the case is pushed up into the feed die.

So as I tip it up, the bullet falls...if it was on the press, the ram would then move down and pull the bullet/case out, releasing the upper fingers and releasing the next bullet into the lower collet to await the next case.


Now, that 1 inch drop can be checked out by just dropping your bullet as in the picture below:

It is adequate to make the .45acp stick as in the picture below. A lighter 9mm? Don't know that answer.

But you can do a similar test with your 9mm tube to see if the .030" flare will make it stick, or if less flare will work. Hope this helps.

 

[RugerSteve]

Thanks for the help. Another question: when I hook up the fail safe rod from powder linkage to bracket, if I want it straight up and down, there is quite a bit of tension when I tighten it down. Is this the way it is supposed to be? It cycles fine, but linkage is tight and stiff.

 

[Wyatt]

Not sure if these pics will help, but the powder measure bell crank/linkage will need to be rotated right of center so that the fail safe bracket is in line vertically. I have the plastic wing nut adjusted so there is 11/16" from the bottom of the threaded rod to the bottom of the plastic wing nut. My linkage has a little side to side play, so not what I would call tight! Most important is that the powder bar travels the full length and contacts the powder measure body.

 

[RugerSteve]

It has no problem with the full length of powder bar travel, and fully returns with no problem. I was just concerned about how stiff it is. According to pics,, looks about the same as yours. Just curious, if you're doing 9's, how many threads are you showing on your powder die above the locking ring?
Oh, yeah, thanks for the pics.

 

[RugerSteve]

Inaugural bullet on this machine ......

 

[Buck1]

xl650

You are pushing your case to fare up the powder drop funnel. the case has gone past the bell and the top of you case is going back straight.

 

[RugerSteve]

I have tweeked , and tweeked the powder die, and if I go anymore a bullet will not sit on/into top of case. I felt it was too much also. Never belled them that much on my Lee Pro 1000.

 

[jmorris]

Ditch the bullet feeder and see if you can get good results. Then go back through GW's post and see if you can match his results.

This is why I suggest folks to run a machine as designed first then make changes one at a time.

 

[GW Staar]

Ditch the bullet feeder and see if you can get good results. Then go back through GW's post and see if you can match his results.

This is why I suggest folks to run a machine as designed first then make changes one at a time.

Agree.

I first tried a Lee Power thru expander with my setup because my .40 S&W dies were Lee. That didn't work no matter how wide the mouth. The angle & depth of the bell makes a lot of difference. The Lee was shallow and a wide angle, the Hornady PTX worked good enough using my heavy .45's, but just barely on .40's.

When RCBS finally saw the light and gave us powder-through expanders a couple of years ago, they used the Lyman "M" die idea which let the bullets fall in deeper. Those really work well. Bullets go in straight and stay straight.But having never used the Dillon PTX I don't know where their design weighs in on all this. I do know that Dillon doesn't make a bullet feeder of any kind, so it's designed to finger-feed at the seater. At least one 650 owner I know (Uncle Nick) did machine his Dillon drop tube with an M die profile. (post 3 Here.)

I also am aware of some Dillon 650 users who, tired of flat-based .223 bullets tipping on seating, use a Lyman M die to insure straight arrow seating....progressives including Dillon's don't expand rifle cases.

The illustration shows how the M die works:

In case there are some Hornady AP users reading, I might add that I eventually replaced my Hornady PTX's with RCBS PTX's.....they work that much better. They fit....kinda. They are longer so you have to readjust everything for height, including where the case-activated linkage clamps on to the powder measure. A little trial & error first.

RugerSteve: I'd follow jmorris's advice and get everything running like a top first. Then if you want to revisit bullet feeding there seems to me to be 3 options:

1. buy a GSI setup...pricey.
2. machine a drop tube with an M die profile to expand less and drop deeper. (see below)
3. buy a Lyman M die for 9mm for $22. (in place of the powder check on station 3.....you'll have to look in each case or build a video powder checker like I did.)


Above: RCBS, then Hornady, then Dillon Powder through expander designs for the 9mm. (Dillon on right)

On the RCBS, the "knob" on the end expands to bullet dia. til you get to the funnel part that bells. The other two designs don't expand enough there, but Hornady's does expand a little more. Flare angle is wide for both Hornady's and Dillon's. Angle on the RCBS is less. I expound here only to help you correct the problem with the Dillon if you have access to a lathe. The following picture shows Galvin Toobe's mod, in his Frankinloder article, and is a step in the right direction. (he confuses a bit showing two different expanders, but look at the tip. If one starts with a new piece of steel, I would have made a knob at the end RCBS stye and left the cone alone to get the 2 step. (I wonder if he just used a bigger caliber expander and machined on it.) Maybe you talk jmorris into making you one? RD

 

[GW Staar]

BTW, I just noticed you posted your thread over at the firing line forum too. There you posted links of your pictures instead of thumbnails, most if not all of us just looked at the thumbnails. Anyway, the result of seeing those pictures big on the other forum, was that they focused on your cases with the really weird belled mouths.....and what I see are mouths not belled enough to do anything but catch on the bullet edges and deform them. In my first post I said you needed to flare .385" over the 9mm bullet diam., and they should look like my pictures (.45, 9mm, .40 whatever). So if that kind of flare alarms you, you have 2 choices left, hand feed or GSI.

 

[jmorris]

progressives including Dillon's don't expand rifle cases.

The 1050 has an additional expander at station 3 integral with the backup rod for the primer pocket swager.

Most all progressives also expand the case as part of the size/deprime die, not with a powder through expander.

The reason is because powder bridging problems would be exacerbated if it had to flow through an even smaller hole of a powder through expander (not a problem with pistol rounds but would never work on .223 and force one to use very fine powders with .308 bullets.

The only way you would loose the expander is if you swapped the decapping pin from a rifle die with one from a pistol die.




I find that more bell can make the "tipping" problem worse. As GW noted the GSI is an expensive feeder but it holds the bullet straight as it is being seated and allows a no shave seat with very little bell.

This is how little I use with my cast and coated bullets on one of my 45 acp machines.

 

[GW Staar]

Most all progressives also expand the case as part of the size/deprime die, not with a powder through expander.

Yes, true, the typical expander ball, (or bushings) but that's just to open it .002" or so under bullet size, it doesn't generally bell anything. Inside chamfer is for starting bullets on rifle. Nor would we want to for the reasons you stated.

I find that more bell can make the "tipping" problem worse.

Yes is does with the Dillon design, that's why RCBS followed Lyman's lead on making their PTX use the bell to catch and center the dropped bullet then allow it to drop further and straighten into that second non-angled less-expanded area just enough that the bullet sticks and sticks straight. Being late for the party allowed RCBS to learn from the mistakes of the other two.

I agree that the GSI method (dropping and seating in the same station) is superior. Bullets don't have to stick and rotate to the next station.

The problem is a Dillon 650/GSI combination remains out of financial reach for many reloaders.....including many Dillon customers.

 

[RugerSteve]

I just backed out the powder die earlier to where the bell isn't so pronounced. Checked it with my calipers and the bell is currently at .0,367and bullet still sits evenly on top of casing. So GW Starr, you're saying that I need to increase the bell again another .018.?

 

[jmorris]

...the typical expander ball, (or bushings) but that's just to open it .002" or so under bullet size, it doesn't generally bell anything.

Oh, correct rifle dies do not bell the case.

Important to note that "expanding" and "bell" are two different things.

Expanding changes the ID throughout the length the "expander" travels, parallel.

Bell is only making the end have a larger ID and tapers into the expanded ID.


Steve, instead of trying to adjust to a number that worked for someone else with maybe different brass, bullets and dies, I think it would be worth your time to "play" with adjustment a little from no-almost no bell all the way to too much bell. Once you do, you will know where the "sweet spot" is with your setup and that will be the number you want to write down.

 

[RugerSteve]

I thought the same thing. Isn't the main idea to get it resized,, decaped, primed,, loaded, with the right amount of grns, bullet seated, to the.proper COAL, crimped, and after all that is done, to make sure of one thing......that it freely fits into and out of the case gauge? It is doing that now.

 

[stavman11]

I have the Hornady Rifle Bullet feeder on my Dillon XL650

Works great and does all in one Die... Shipped for $320 i believe it was...

Great option for sure

 

[GW Staar]

I just backed out the powder die earlier to where the bell isn't so pronounced. Checked it with my calipers and the bell is currently at .0,367and bullet still sits evenly on top of casing. So GW Starr, you're saying that I need to increase the bell again another .018.?

I'm just quoting Hornady's instructions for use of their bullet feeder. Which BTW is echoed by the RCBS bullet feeder instructions. (before they offered their own expanders) Using the new 2-step expanders I can bell less than I can using Hornady's and it seems to work in .45 and .40 using both RCBS and Hornady powder-thr expanders. I'm sorry I can't say the same thing for 9mm because I don't load 9mm and therefore never tested it. the number I gave you is from the Hornady and RCBS instructions. .030" over bullet size. Unless you figure out a two-step expander you are stuck with .030" over

That said, I do agree with jmorris.....start at less bell and see if you can get away with less. But too less you get your deformed brass. Obviously the less you bell and still stick the bullet the better.

I think the main problem you have is the Dillon funnel. Another possibility is acquiring a Mr. Bullet Feeder expander! They are for Dillons! For sale here for $39!
[/URL]
Mr. Bullet Feeder supplies their own powder through expander to replace Dillons (they also call it a funnel). It looks to have the second step like Galvin Toobe's picture.

Here's a question/answer from Mr. Bullet Feeder that might interest you and explains in another way what I've be saying.

Q: Is it necessary to use the powder funnel/expander that came with the system?

A: We recommend installing the new powder funnel/expander (for handgun calibers) on your press. It has been machined with a modified profile that improves bullet tamping performance while requiring a minimum of case flaring. A properly tamped bullet will not fall from the case mouth when the press is indexed. As you become accustomed to reloading with the new bulletfeeder, your reloading rate will naturally increase. The higher reloading rate will cause poorly tamped bullets to fall off of the cases during indexing. That being said, if your existing press setup prepares the cases well enough to hold the bullets in place while indexing, use of the new style funnel/expander is optional. If your system is set up for rifle caliber reloading, we suggest that you also consider using some type of case mouth expander when preparing your cases. Boat tail bullets will tamp more easily than flat base bullets, but both types will tamp into place much better by using a small amount of case mouth expansion. Expanders are available from many reloading manufacturers (example: Lyman M-Die).

And perhaps Mr. bullet bullet feeder's instructions may help you.

http://www.mrbulletfeeder.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/User-Manual_Final.pdf

 

[RugerSteve]

Do you think that the Dillon powder funnel is really that much different than the Mr BulletFeeder one? Oh you forgot the URL. Is that just at their website?
Only thing is now since re-adjusting powder die yesterday, bullets are not dropping consistently, like they were before tweeking, and took off feeder and re-adjusted according to Horniday's instructions
I assume that the belling has something to do with triggering the die to drop a bullet. If that is the case, I will have to adjust powder die to what ever belling it takes to trigger the feeder die.

 

[GW Staar]

Do you think that the Dillon powder funnel is really that much different than the Mr BulletFeeder one? Oh you forgot the URL. Is that just at their website?
Only thing is now since re-adjusting powder die yesterday, bullets are not dropping consistently, like they were before tweeking, and took off feeder and re-adjusted according to Horniday's instructions
I assume that the belling has something to do with triggering the die to drop a bullet. If that is the case, I will have to adjust powder die to what ever belling it takes to trigger the feeder die.

Yes it's different. It's hard to see but there is a step in the bottom "finger" where it expands (not bells) to bullet diameter just before it gets to the cone where belling takes place. You can then adjust it to bell less while still expanding enough for the bullet to stick.

The URL (link) is there, it's underlined. It takes you to CED, the company who makes the CED M2 chronograph....they are selling Mr. Bullet Feeder products. I think the shipping in built in to that price....you click your zip to find shipping and the price doesn't change...at least I think so.

Bell size may indeed trigger the feed die, not sure without going home and checking. Unfortunately 9mm is harder to adjust for....almost all the threads on tweaking the Hornady feed dies have been due to either lead fodder or 9mm. Should be easy enough to take the die apart and test the premise.