Trouble Shooting First Cast Loads in 30-30

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DMW1116

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The title says it all. I’m shooting 135 grain flat point Acme cast bullets over Alliant 2400 powder. The charge is the starting charge for a 150 grain bullet in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual.

First the positive. This load was very pleasant to shoot. Greatly reduced noise and recoil compared to the standard 150 grain jacketed loads I tried a couple of weeks ago.

The only issue is the accuracy, which was about an 8” group at 25 yards. I’m not sure what the issue is but I have a few ideas.

First is the bullets, which I don’t think is the problem. The Acme 9mm bullets I’ve used have been great so I don’t think that’s where I need to start. However could the coating be uneven or have an off center or uneven casting? These bullets are sized at 0.309”. Should I be looking for a 0.311 or other size bullet?

Powder charge is where I’d start mostly because it’s the easiest to change. Is it possible the light load and a lighter bullet lead to wildly varying pressures? My next plan is to start increasing powder charge.
 
My Winchester 94 does well with SNS cast. You may have to try different powders too. I use a lot of red dot in cast rifle loads. I like it in reduced jacketed and plated bullet loads too.
 
Yes it is a Marlin micro groove barrel. Powder choices are fairly limited locally. I found the 2400 but paid a pretty penny for it. I’m set for jacketed loads, though I want to try again to get a good load for the 150 gr jacketed round nose.
 
I also need to do a good cleaning and look for signs the red coating or lead are left behind in the barrel.
 
Normally, Marlins need bigger diameter cast. Mine likes .311 in the 311291 Lyman. Funny because that is the die I bought about 1960 for loading 30-06 which didn't work out but .309 did. My M70 actually works best with .308. Are you shooting lubed or coated? All my experience is with conventional lube. I doubt you will find many full bore loads for jacketed with 2400. My go to for jacketed since the sixties has been 3031. Good luck. You should be able to get 3 moa at 100 with a good load. My 336 will do 2 moa with 170 grain Rem factory stuff.
 
A the proud FORMER owner of a Marlin 1894 44 mag lever gun, I offer this advice: Save hours of frustration and lead removal, sell the Marlin and buy a 30-30 lever gun with real rifling. Micro-grove rifling CANNOT group cast lead bullets. These guns do just fine with jacketed bullets.
 
If you load them light, or subsonic, the marlin should do fine with them. I've shot a few that did well even with the microgroove. Once i turned up the pressure, they did not shoot well with plain bases and 2400 or similar powders. Had gas check bullets do better for sure in the microgrooved ones.

I've had the best luck shooting a fat bullet, say .310 or .311 if it will chamber in the rifle.

Using a Lyman m die to expand the case neck helps a lot too. Dont forget neck chamfer.

Shot both powder coated and regular plain based bullet from the marlins at subsonic speeds, used unique with very good results. Faster loads using gas checks and w748 did well for me too.
 
You don't say what diameter and hardness these bullets are. I have had several 336 in both Marlin and Glenfield livery and in each case, they wanted a softer bullet, in the BHN 10 -12 range at a minimum of .310. Some preferred .311. The powder you are using, 2400, is a great cast bullet powder,so that is not your issue. But if you I are using 150 grs data for 135 grs bullet, you may be pushing it too fast as well. The microgroove barrel is at its best with .310-.311 bullets, 10-12 BHN at sub 1800 fps. If you are pushing a hard, undersized bullet at speed, you will never get accuracy and may well get some leading.I

Good luck and stick at it. The 336 microgroove barrel is a great cast bullet shooter once you get the formula right.
 
The microgroove barrel is at its best with .310-.311 bullets, 10-12 BHN at sub 1800 fps.
Friends that shoot cast bullets from their marlin micro groove barrel have all recommended velocities to be no higher than 1600 fps for good accuracy. Shooting them at higher velocities will lead your barrel quickly.
 
They are sized at 0.309”. I plan to measure a few to see how true that is. I’ve also emailed Acme to see if they know some tricks. The hardness quoted in the bullet description is BHN 16.

I am somewhat off on my own in terms of load data. The velocity given in my manual for the 150 grain bullets is 1600 fps from a 24” barrel. I intend to clean the rifle today and check for coating or lead in the bore.

My primary goal was a safe starting point. The instructions from my Lee 30-30 dies have a paragraph about moving down in bullet weight with a similar charge being safe pressure wise. Specifically it says velocity should be similar with lower pressure. They made no promises about accuracy.

I have 90 bullets and a pound of powder to figure it out. This might be my first real reloading puzzle. Maybe I should have posted in that forum?
 
Every Marlin I own will shoot cast bullets well (.30-30, .35 Rem, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, & .357 Mag.) By well, I mean they'll group 3 shots from a cold bbl. into 3" or less at 100 yds, scope sighted. ALL are Micro-Groove bbls. Here are some of the secrets:

Bore & bullet leade: Marlins all have an oversize, some would say, bullet seat and groove dia. For .30-30 I size to 0.310" minimum, larger if my mold will cast and bigger. In .35 Rem and .357 Mag I size to 0.359" minimum, but 0.360" is better if the round will chamber. In my .44, I size to 0.432+", and in the .41 Mag, 0.412". I use 50-50 alox to beeswax lube. As a general rule, in my experience, use the largest cast bullet that will chamber in your gun.

Powder, 2400 is OK/good but I don't push it. Velocities need to stay below 1600 fps max due to the shallow rifling. Adjust your powder charge accordingly. For plinking rounds but where accuracy is still needed, Unique, Herco, WSF, and even Bullseye are good, but powder positioning close to the primer is necessary. (Tilt the gun up before you shoot to get it where in needs to be.) I don't trust Kapok fillers to accomplish this, but many knowledgeable shooters do so.

Bullets: A long full groove dia. bullet is best in my experience, as is one with a gas check. Without the gas check, limit velocity to 1200 fps or less from a rifle bbl.

Bullet alloy: I cast primarily with wheel weights. For rifle use, I water quench them (drop directly from the mold into a 5 gallon bucket of water). This produces a brinell hardness tough enough to stand the higher velocities. For commercial, check out Missouri Bullet Co's gas checked offerings with a hardness up around 18. Their flat nosed 180 gr GC is particularly good in my .30 cals. (.30-30, .308, .30-06, & .30-40 Krag)

Case prep: I use a Lyman "M" die to flare the case mouth and to expand the sized case to just under bullet dia. This prevents a too-tight case neck from resizing your bullet when seated. Using a sizing die alone, (most are machined for jacketed bullets i.e. they size the neck too small), you're in effect resizing your carefully selected over size bullets as you seat them. Invest in an "M" die and you'll find that it also helps with jacketed bullets. Too, every time you fire a case, the neck and shoulder hardens...I anneal my brass after 3-4 firings for best, most consistent neck tension.

Crimp: I don't use one. Lever actions at the velocities listed above will not set the bullet back in the tube magazine during recoil. Crimping, beyond merely removing the case mouth flare, destroys bullet fit. If you want full velocity .30-30 rounds, get some jacketed bullets that'll take the abuse...lead alloy will not.

Bore condition: I've had some success shooting cast bullets through a bore fouled by jacketed types...but not much. For best results, thoroughly clean with a good abrasive bore cleaner...JB bore paste is what I use. Then shoot 6-8 rounds of cast bullet loads to season the clean bore. Alternately, you can clean then dry the bore then re-season with a patch coated with your bullet lube, then wipe out. It helps, but the 6-8 shot method is what I use 99% of the time.

Results: Using Lymans round nosed 311291 gc or 311477 sized to 0.310" and producing 1500 fps, I expect my Marlin Texan .30-30 to shoot ragged hole groups at 30 yds from a rest. Careful inspection of bullets helps as does weighing them to identify those with internal casting flaws. At 100 yds, the same Marlin will shoot 2"+ with a 2x scope mounted for the first 3 shots. Hot barrels in ANY lever gun, will usually result in vertical stringing to some extent. Tuning the fore end and receiver/fore end interfaces will reduce that tendency as will relieving the pressure from barrel bands...a science in itself but worth the effort. And BTW, two Winchester 94's in the same caliber will do nearly as well, but suffer from the inability to mount a scope do OK with a Williams Foo Proof peep instead.

In a nut-shell: Bore riding hard cast bullet with GC, light powder charge for ~<1600 fps, over size bullet by caliber + 0.002"- 0.003", "M" die to prevent bullet deformation while seating, & no crimp.

The above works for me...it'll work for you as well with some dedicated patience and attention to detail. For further info, Cast Boolts forum is superb.

Best regards, Rod
 
Micro-grove rifling CANNOT group cast lead bullets.

Wrong. The bullet must match the bore, and that's for any rifle and cast, not just Marlin.

OP, you need to try .310" or .311" bullets before you throw in the towel. I've had the same issue... with my Savage 99 in .30-30, of all things... and NOT a MicroGroove barrel. I was getting patterns with my standard .309" Oregon Trail cast bullet, but as soon as I went to .310", everything tightened up nicely.

I'll also second Rod's recommendation of a Lyman M-die or similar. It makes life a LOT easier loading cast, and will help with consistency.
 
I’m currently cleaning a bunch of crud out of the barrel. The patches come out with the rifling pattern on them in black and little sparkly metal bits. I assume this is leading. Is it possible to lead a barrel with only 8 rounds? I didn’t clean it this well before starting the cast experiment so it may have been in there already, though no one but me has fired it in 15 years.
 
A the proud FORMER owner of a Marlin 1894 44 mag lever gun, I offer this advice: Save hours of frustration and lead removal, sell the Marlin and buy a 30-30 lever gun with real rifling. Micro-grove rifling CANNOT group cast lead bullets. These guns do just fine with jacketed bullets.

First off, get an all copper chore boy scrubbing pad, pull off some strands and wrap them around a bore brush and it will strip the lead right out. 2nd, with the right diameter bullet micro groove will shoot cast accurately. But it needs to be fat.

That said, I hope the first thing ruger does to marlin is dump the stupid micro groove rifling.
 
They are sized at 0.309”. I plan to measure a few to see how true that is. I’ve also emailed Acme to see if they know some tricks. The hardness quoted in the bullet description is BHN 16.

I am somewhat off on my own in terms of load data. The velocity given in my manual for the 150 grain bullets is 1600 fps from a 24” barrel. I intend to clean the rifle today and check for coating or lead in the bore.

My primary goal was a safe starting point. The instructions from my Lee 30-30 dies have a paragraph about moving down in bullet weight with a similar charge being safe pressure wise. Specifically it says velocity should be similar with lower pressure. They made no promises about accuracy.

I have 90 bullets and a pound of powder to figure it out. This might be my first real reloading puzzle. Maybe I should have posted in that forum?
That is the beauty of reloading and hand loading, you get to customize your rounds to your rifle.
Is it possible to lead a barrel with only 8 rounds
Yes, it is very possible, if the lead is soft, or the bullet is not well lubricated, also the diameter of the round is smaller than the rifling, or if the velocity is too fast.
 
They are sized at 0.309”. I plan to measure a few to see how true that is. I’ve also emailed Acme to see if they know some tricks. The hardness quoted in the bullet description is BHN 16.

I am somewhat off on my own in terms of load data. The velocity given in my manual for the 150 grain bullets is 1600 fps from a 24” barrel. I intend to clean the rifle today and check for coating or lead in the bore.

My primary goal was a safe starting point. The instructions from my Lee 30-30 dies have a paragraph about moving down in bullet weight with a similar charge being safe pressure wise. Specifically it says velocity should be similar with lower pressure. They made no promises about accuracy.

I have 90 bullets and a pound of powder to figure it out. This might be my first real reloading puzzle. Maybe I should have posted in that forum?

Those bullets are never going to shoot accurately in your rifle. They are undersized at .309, too hard at BHN 16, and too short at 135 grs. You will indeed have gotten leading from 8 rounds.

I like the Lyman 311041 gas checked (@ 170-175 grs), but any flat nose 170ish grs bullet sized .310-.311, not too hard, and kept to 1600-1700 fps will shoot well in a microgroove barrel. And the 30-30 case was made for those nice long bullets. It's a good rifle, great cartridge, and once you get the right bullet, it will shoot very well indeed.
 
Interesting read

I loaded some 115gr powder coated bullets. Using Trail Boss. 1" 50 yard groups.
9yo grandson loved them.
Loaded up to 2500fps and outstanding deer load. Comparable ballistics to a mid-range .25-06 load.
BTW. In a MICRO-GROOVE barrel
 
What diameter were they sized to? That seems to be my most likely problem. I picked a bullet too small for the barrel.
 
A the proud FORMER owner of a Marlin 1894 44 mag lever gun, I offer this advice: Save hours of frustration and lead removal, sell the Marlin and buy a 30-30 lever gun with real rifling. Micro-grove rifling CANNOT group cast lead bullets. These guns do just fine with jacketed bullets.

I have a 45-70 with Micro-Groove rifling and I never did get it to shoot worth a flip. Oh I know....I need to try this diameter, try this bullet, this lube, prep cases like this, etc.

On the other hand, I inherited my wife's grandfathers 30-30 that was made in 1915 and has been rode hard and put up wet, really hard, really wet. Lightly pitted all over with a pitted bore and a buttstock that was split from one end to the other and repaired with brass screws. Using the tried and true rectal extraction method, I tried two loads with two different bullets.

YjNPigal.jpg Fuaks95l.jpg

THAT is how easy it should be to work up a cast load in a 30-30.

35W
 
Im not sure this will help or not, as my Marlin is old enough to predate the micro groove bbl.
I paper patch about 1/2 the projectiles i shoot and get super good velocities and zero leading
by doing it. A SECO truncated 160gr @ .3015 with 2 wraps of medium bond paper has worked for all the .30 cal needs i have, yea, its a little more time involved yea it's another step, but not having to reduce loads and the ability to custom up the hardness is uesfull and getting full velocity potential sure doesn't hurt either.
 
Once I start down this casting road I don’t know how far I’ll go. I do feel paper patching is worth knowing how to do but it’s a ways off from here. I’m glad people like you are around to remind me how much I don’t know
 
It must be more common than I think. Someone else mentioned paper patching. I will have to try it now. Anywhere to get information on how to do it?
 
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