Tucker and Sherrard

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I can't believe what I did. I just bought it!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=502767237

If this is the pistol, I envy you except for the price, unless you are REALLY into a Tucker, Sherrard and Company clone. It appears to be in VERY good condition, and IMO is right on spec down to the lack of any loading aperture/recess on the right barrel lug.

I must make some comments, and none in any order as I am probably going to ramble as my thoughts come:

Replica Arms El Paso folded in 1965 and was bought out by Western Arms NM around ~1965. Replica Arms restarted in Marietta Ohio after that. Both Western Arms and Replica Arms imported ASM pistols.

IIRC, ASM was sold to Uberti ~1973, so many Uberti pistols of that period and beyond contained ASM parts. If Uberti used ASM machinery, who knows how long this continued.

I have a first year-of-issue REPLICA ARMS CO EL PASO TEXAS 1848 Pocket Pistol .31 6" barrel with load lever ASM (but not marked as such) starting in 1963 (date mark XIX). Your new acquisition shows alpha characters in a box (which I cannot read), so that puts your manufacture date at 1975 or later.

My Replica Arms 1848 Pocket Pistol:

1848%20Pocket%20008_zpsvrb3fcqv.jpg

I noticed that your pistol has the same approximate "droop" at the rammer pivot. Do your self a favor and try to actuate the rammer into a chamber to see if it aligns well. Mine does not because of this:

1848%20Pocket%20007_zpsssspqizr.jpg


1848%20Pocket%20003_zpscwthsrb8.jpg

I am not saying yours will have the same poor fit. I will try to see if a Uberti 1849 rammer will fit mine.

I like the pistol because it is a very early replica (in the modern sense) but the Italian pistols manufactured these days are far above the ones from 50 years ago.
 
expat said:
IIRC, ASM was sold to Uberti ~1973, so many Uberti pistols of that period and beyond contained ASM parts. If Uberti used ASM machinery, who knows how long this continued.
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I do not thinkk you are recalling correctly. Armi San Marco was it's own company until 2002 when it went out of business. The Tucker & Sherrards were made in the mid to late 70s time frame. There were 400 cased sets made that had T prefixed serial numbers. There were also some individual revolvers made. Since this one has a T prefix SN, somewhere along the line, the case & accessories have gone astray.
 
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I wonder if Uberti took Colt "Dragoon" parts off the regular assembly line and added the Texas engravings to make these semi-rare replicas. Fingers????
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I wouldn't be surprised. The barrels could have just not had the loading cut on the right side done in the machining process and the cylinder roll engraving die changed out with the Texas star die for the number scheduled in the production run.
 
Fingers:

I respect your wide expertise in all manner of C&B pistols.

My reference to Uberti buying out ASM came from this source:

Dr. Jim L. Davis, http://rprca.tripod.com/

Hello Jim,

What you have is a first year production ASM revolver. Armi San Paolo did not go into production until around 1970. ASM produced all of the small and large frame revolvers in the beginning. Indeed there is very strong evidence that the parts supposedly sold to Colt through Uberti were actually ASM parts. Thus the 2nd Gen Colts were part ASM, not Uberti. Interesting bit of trivia. Hope this helps.

Jim Davis
________________________________________

To: [email protected]
Subject: ASM
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:06:28 -0700
Hello Dr. Davis,

I am responding to your email address on an old 2010 thread on TFL. I am wondering if you have collected any more info on Armi San Marco(s) pistols since that time.

My inquiry pertains to a REPLICA ARMS EL PASO TEXAS (stamped on the right barrel flat above the wedge) 1848 Pocket .31 Squareback 5 ¾” (nominal 6”) barrel with load lever. The serial mumber 288 appears on the frame, barrel, trigger guard, and the bottom of the backstrap. Other than the importer markings, the barrel stamped MADE IN ITALY (on the left barrel flat above the wedge) and the Italian proofmarks on the frame, barrel, and the face of the cylinder, as well as manufacture date XIX (1963), there are no other manufacturer markings, cartouches, et al. I’m wanting to think it is an ASM or Armi San Paolo pistol, but I am looking for other proof from folks such as you.

Thanks in advance!

Jim
Click to expand...

Also this:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403002

http://www.1960nma.org/ItalianBrothers/Italian Half Brothers-12. 06.11.htm

Enlighten me as to the corporate line and association of ASM/Uberti/ Replica Arms El Paso TX/Replica Arms Marietta OH/ et al.

Do you have any documentation that, in fact, ASM was marketing C&B revolvers from 1974 -2002, including your statement

Armi San Marco was it's own company until 2002 when it went out of business. The Tucker & Sherrards were made in the 1978-1979+ time frame. There were 400 cased sets made that had T prefixed serial numbers. There were also some individual revolvers made. Since this one has a T prefix SN, somewhere along the line, the case & accessories have gone astray.
Click to expand...

about these possibly spurious claims, and that ASM was possibly a subsidiary of Uberti marketing pistols under the ASM brand?

Awaiting your expert reply.

Sincerely,

Jim
 
In the FiringLine thread referenced, Dr. Davis states:

"...Replica Arms of El Paso, TX was started by L.F. Allen. This was sold and moved to Marietta, OH., and then, in around 1973, was sold to Navy Arms. Allen then started Western Arms which became Allen Arms, and then to Cimarron.

I remember that ASM was sold to American Western Arms who only produces cartridge revolvers. ASM attempted to revive its percussion revolvers with limited success and finally closed its doors several years back...."

Bold and underlining by me.
 
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Expat - sorry I haven't responded till now. I was at the SASS Central Divisional Championship of Cowboy Action Shooting since last Wednesday.

I respect your wide expertise in all manner of C&B pistols.

My reference to Uberti buying out ASM came from this source:

Dr. Jim L. Davis, http://rprca.tripod.com/

Quote:
Hello Jim,

What you have is a first year production ASM revolver. Armi San Paolo did not go into production until around 1970. ASM produced all of the small and large frame revolvers in the beginning. Indeed there is very strong evidence that the parts supposedly sold to Colt through Uberti were actually ASM parts. Thus the 2nd Gen Colts were part ASM, not Uberti. Interesting bit of trivia. Hope this helps.

Jim Davis
Click to expand...

I think your taking Dr. Davis' comment about ASM supplying parts for the 2nd Gens a little far in suggesting the Uberti bought ASM.

Do you have any documentation that, in fact, ASM was marketing C&B revolvers from 1974 -2002, including your statement


Quote:
Armi San Marco was it's own company until 2002 when it went out of business. The Tucker & Sherrards were made in the 1978-1979+ time frame. There were 400 cased sets made that had T prefixed serial numbers. There were also some individual revolvers made. Since this one has a T prefix SN, somewhere along the line, the case & accessories have gone astray.

about these possibly spurious claims, and that ASM was possibly a subsidiary of Uberti marketing pistols under the ASM brand?
Click to expand...

My post about ASM & The Tucker & Sherrards was not well phrased. I got two different thoughts crosswise in my post. The Tucker & Sherrards that I was referencing were made by Uberti, not ASM. However, according to Dr Davis, ASM did produce some revolvers they marketed as Tucker & Sherrards that had the correct roll engraved cylinder but a standard 2ndModel Dragoon barrel.

According to the Eighth edition of 'Blue Book of Modern Black Powder Arms': "Armi San Marco - Previous manufacturer located in Gardone, Italy, acquired by American Western Arms, Inc. in 2000 and reorganized as American Western Arms, Italia. See American Western Arms Inc. listing. Previously imported by EMP locatred in Santa Ana, CA, and sold through EMF, Traditions, Cabelas and other retail gun stores. All Armi San Marco black powder cap and ball and cartridge conversion models were discontinued in 2000." Not 2002 as I had previously stated. It goes on to say "In 1993, The Hartford line was introduced by EMF. These models have steel frames with German silver plated back strap and trigger guard, inspector's cartouche on grip, and trade for approximately $20-$40 higher than standard Armi San Marco versions."

Outside of the Blue Book entry, the documentation I have that ASM was producing revolvers is the dozen or so Walkers, Dragoons, 1860 Armies, and pocket models that I have had or currently have in my collection.

Here is an ASM nickel plated Walker (Mfg 1979) cased set that I picked up a few years ago along with four other ASM Walkers;

WalkerH1.jpg

And here's one made in 1994:

WalkerE1.jpg
 
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I have two ASM's and one Uberti with correct Colt barrel addresses and they are all are works of art with very smooth actions.

All three are "AP" date coded for 1986.

One ASM is a full-fluted cylinder but the other one and the Uberti have "Colt's Patent No." on the cylinder as opposed to the usual "Patent No.."

The cylinders do not, however, have any part of the serial number stamped after or below that inscription as do genuine Colt products.

I also have a separate never used ASM 1860 cylinder with "Colt's Patent No.."

The ASM's include an 1862 Pocket Navy and an 1860 while the Uberti is a factory cased Wells Fargo.

There was an ASM 1851 with the Colt barrel address that sold on Gun Auction around 2005.

None of them include the left frame Patent dates as found on genuine Colts nor the trigger guard caliber stamp but I have seen ASM "Hartford" and "Dakota" model 1873 frames with the former.

ASM 1873's are said to be the closest reproductions to genuine Colts and can interchange parts.

Perhaps this strengths the case for an ASM/Uberti/Colt parts link.
 
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Tucker and Sherarrd acquired

I recently received the Uberti Tucker and Sherarrd that I won on Gunbroker.com. The gun is in like new condition and was made in 1979. It is not, however, a historically correct rendition of the original Tucker and Sherarrd. Uberti evidently took their 2nd model Dragoon, engraved "Texas Arms" on the cylinder and called it a "Tucker and Sherrard." Two major areas of contention:

The cylinder on the original Ticker and Sherrard built in Lancaster, Texas, was one quarter inch shorter than the Colt 2nd model Dragoon. Uberti used the same size cylinder as the one on their 2nd model Dragoon.

In addition, the roll engraving on the cylinder of "Texas Arms," and the Texas star, by all accounts, was not applied to the Tucker and Sherarrd. This roll engraving appears on the Clark and Sherrard revolvers that were manufactured after the end of the Civil War. The Clark and Sherrard had the full size cylinder and was a copy of the Colt 3rd model Dragoon with round trigger guard.

The revolver I have is a great 2nd model Dragoon in new condition. But it is no replica of a Tucker and Sherarrd.
 
fingers said:
I don't believe any of them were finished as well as the 2nd Gens, and IIRC only the stainless 1860 Army had a Colt address on the barrel.
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elhombe said:
The only reason I ask is that I have 2 such ASMs from circa 1981 and have come across a few others from that period that I have compared to minty 2nd gens.
Except for the Italian proofmarks, you can't tell the difference.
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None of the ASMs that I have or have had were new or even unfired - although some were claimed to be - whereas 95% of the 2nd Gens I own are NIB, so I have a different point of view.

Of the Uberti SS Colts that I have, the fit & finish of the 1851, 1861, 1nd 1860s are on par with the 2nd Gens; but the 3 pocket models were just advanced parts kits as far as the actions went. Most have the Colt's Patent No. on the cylinder; although two of them the Colt's has been scratched off.

Different models, assembled by different gunsmiths on different days can yield a wide variety of conditions.
 
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ZVP said:
No lockdown for the rammer.
Does it fall?
ZVP
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The lockdown on the Walker was just in front of the hinge on the plunger. You can barely see it in the above photos and that's only the base ends where it's dovetailed to the barrel.
This was not as reliable as the later styles and yes, the handle did often fall under recoil. A little leather thong was often ties around the handle & barrel to stop it.
 
I just watched a nifty homemade gadget go for over thirty bucks on Ebay. It was a Walker lever retaining ring. Two braised together rings: a little one for the rammer and a larger split felt lined one for the barrel. He said he has more!!!
 
If you use a file on the spring that retains the rammer, it will not fall. Do not take off too much metal or the rammer becomes locked.

Kevin
 
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