Unusual Tucker & Sherrard Confederate Dragoon Replica

Status
Not open for further replies.
dirt-poor said:
I'm glad you brought that up. I was thinking the correct arbor fit had to do with the time period when the gun was made. So they commonly cut them short back in the 1970s also. Did they ever have a habit of doing it right?
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone at Uberti knows what "right" is regarding as to how a Colt arbor and wedge is supposed to work. It also amazes me that they can make reproductions of a particular design for 50+ years and never figure that out. Surely by now someone has pointed it out to them so you just have to assume they don't care about getting it right. Pietta is far above Uberti in actual shooting and working revolvers regarding recent and current production. Uberti happens to make more authentic reproductions but need work to make them function as they should.
 
Zulch said:
dirt-poor,
Good morning. Thanks for your more detailed thoughts and experience with the ASM's. As I've said, I've never owned one. Scarcity of parts is enough to make one have second thoughts, so thank you. If I may ask, why do you dislike the 1st and 2d gen Dragoons?
I've never owned a Dragoon. Would you mind elaborating on your experience with them? I do know someone experienced with the Dragoon and they swear by the 3d generation. I really appreciate your time and thanks for your willingness to share :thumbup:. Thank you, Tim
Click to expand...

I love dragoons, The geometry, the heft, the power. I just don't like Colt's 2nd and 3rd generations.

I bought a new 3rd-generation 1st-model dragoon in about 1996. The first problem out of the box was that I was unable to separate the barrel from the frame. I called the Colt specialty shop (or whatever it was called) told them about it, and sent them the gun. They got it apart and reduced the diameter of the arbor toward the end, where it got bound up in the hole. But they sent the gun back with a big, ugly gouge on the left side of the barrel near the barrel lug. No apology.

The next problem was that the bolt would often hang up, failing to pop back into place when the gun was decoked. That was due to the legs binding between the hammer and the interior side of the frame. There was no burr in there, but there was a slight, bulging deformation that the bolt leg on that side had to slide over. Everything worked okay after I filed it down flat.

Six years ago, I bought an unfired, new-in-the-box-with-all-documentation 2nd-generation 3rd-model Dragoon from an online vendor. It was an impulse purchase prompted by how beautiful that gun looked in the pictures. The downside turned out to be an entirely defective barrel, which was not detectable in the pictures or mentioned in the description. The face of the muzzle was irregular, having a depression in it at the crown. Two of the lands of the rifling had bad, jagged cuts in them with sharp bits of metal sticking up above their surfaces. And the forcing cone was cut too short. This revolver had a .025" cylinder gap!

"No returns." So I performed a service to mankind by tossing the barrel into the recylcling bin and parting out what was left on ebay.
 
Last edited:
45 Dragoon said:
Ok everyone, in my first post in this thread (post #2 above) the last line says "' . . . except the Piettas of late". It's well known and been talked about ad nauseum that Pietta fixed the arbor problem a dozen yrs or so ago. Uberti and all the others (including Pietta of more than a dozen yrs or so ago) have short arbors . . . end of story. And, Mr. Cooper fan, when you call me a lier, it typically brings out the "smugness " in me . . . it's just the way I am . . .

Mike

After looking back at the thread in the "gunsmithing" section, you are correct Mr JCooper. It was another poster that seems to "shoot from the hip" so I apologize but then as far as "throwing accusations around" , that goes for calling folks liars as well . . . my man!!
Click to expand...

Yes, that is how you explained it, and since you have experience and wherewithal far, far, beyond mine, I wouldn't dispute anything you have to say. Others might, and I enjoy reading your comments when they do. Even though this particular topic is understandably tiresome for you, your posts have always been very educational for me.

There are other posts here and there on gun forums claiming that this or that Uberti has a properly fit arbor. One guy stated that the .44-caliber replicas tend to be better in that regard than the .36 calibers. I don't know,

I only know what I can see for myself, such as the T&S replica described in this thread -- a milled-down arbor face and a proper fit. If someone fixed it after it left the factory, they did it either by replacing the original arbor or by shortening the barrel lug a little. There are no shims in the hole.

I'm not making a case for it one way or another. Just an observation.
 
Dirt-poor, it's not tiresome at all as I understand there may be someone just finding this out for the first time. The only thing I have a problem with is being called a lier by someone who has been around this forum long enough to know that this a very much talked about topic. I try and share what's, how to's, why's as often as I can. Likewise, I like learning as well which is why I duck in here several times a day.

I would ask you particularly as to how you arrived at the conclusion that your arbor is correct (maybe I missed it somewhere) did you try assembly with a washer in the arbor hole or driving the wedge in far enough to see if the barrel/cyl clearance changed or the cyl locked up? (This is where I learn stuff) Some folks add material by welding and then dressing the arbor down which very well may be the case with yours.
Thanks d-p!!

Mike
 
Well, educate me.

IF my arbors aren’t correct, then why aren’t they? If there’s something you know that I’m not tracking, I’m all ears. We’re all here to learn and be friends... right?
 
JCooperfan 1911, YES!!!! We are here to learn and be friends!! Thank you and here we go!!! The reproduction market started getting big with the Civil War Centennial ramping up! So the Italians got busy and repros hit the ever ready market!! Hit it while it's hot, don't worry about the details!! They did and they didn't!! Least of all the arbor fit!! It takes time (especially back then) and they'll never notice!! For me, the early guns are rather crude and awkward looking . . . especially compared to the Uberti offerings today!! I think the Italians never dreamed the cap gun industry would last nearly this long and be this popular! That is why it has taken until recently Pietta making the move to correct an extremely important piece of the open top design . . . the arbor/barrel assembly "connection"!! I'm pretty sure it came from the pressure of the Cowboy shooting society that convinced Pietta to make the change. Uberti still refuses to admit it's a problem.
The design of the arbor is obviously to keep the two assemblies together {with use of a wedge) but it also is what allows a repeatable barrel/cylinder relationship. It's the arbor dead ending in the barrel assy and under tension (very important) that defines the barrel/cyl clearance or endshake if you prefer. Another important feature of the arbor contact is the transmission of shock waves (harmonics) which is what allows the two assemblies to act as a single unit. When there is space between the arbor and the barrel the result is a break in the transmission and the assemblies end up beating against each other rather than in unison. Yes these people understood mechanics very well and what a detriment vibration can be to the longevity of a machine or device. Therefore, it's rather important to get the correct arbor length if you plan on accurate shooting and having the same revolver each time it's re-assembleed. The wedge is for keeping two assemblies together under tension . . . not to be a referee between two fighting assemblies. That's why Colts own instructions say to "drive the wedge out "(disassembling) and " drive the wedge in" (re-assembling).

The bit about the close bbl/cyl clearance is three fold - one, to keep fouling build up to a minimum (it should go out the barrel, not between the bbl/cyl), 2, to increase efficiency and therefore power (the last couple of thousandths make the most difference) 3, to keep the cylinder from acting as a slide hammer and beating the revolver needlessly.

Mike
 
Last edited:
45 Dragoon said:
Dirt-poor, it's not tiresome at all as I understand there may be someone just finding this out for the first time. The only thing I have a problem with is being called a lier by someone who has been around this forum long enough to know that this a very much talked about topic. I try and share what's, how to's, why's as often as I can. Likewise, I like learning as well which is why I duck in here several times a day.

I would ask you particularly as to how you arrived at the conclusion that your arbor is correct (maybe I missed it somewhere) did you try assembly with a washer in the arbor hole or driving the wedge in far enough to see if the barrel/cyl clearance changed or the cyl locked up? (This is where I learn stuff) Some folks add material by welding and then dressing the arbor down which very well may be the case with yours.
Thanks d-p!!

Mike
Click to expand...
1. After fully tapping in the wedge, the cylinder gap is a snug .008", and is consistent from top to bottom. Tapping more and harder does not result in any change. It's still a snug .008" from top to bottom.

2. If the frame and barrel are joined and the wedge tapped in when there is a light coat of oil in the arbor hole, and none on the arbor, the face of the arbor picks up a visible ring of oil residue where it makes contact.

3. I found a couple of thin washers with diameters not too small to do or too big to fit and tried dropping each one into the hole before inserting the arbor. They were both too thick. Looking for thinner things to try, I worked my way down to cutting a little circle out of some flat PVC shrink-wrap tubing that's used to re-wrap lithium batteries. The material is too thin to get a measurement with my digital caliper because the battery is dead. The analogue reading is zero. I guess it's a bit thinner than .001" because that's about the effect it had in the arbor hole. Firmly tapping in the wedge with the gun assembled and the shrink-wrap circle in place brought the cylinder gap to a tight .009" or a loose .008".

I hadn't thought of the possibility that somebody might have welded more steel onto the arbor and dressed it down. I looked at it carefully and do not see any evidence of that, but I'll take some pictures and get an enlarged view to be more certain.

Thanks for your help!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Ephraim Kibbey
  • Locked
Tucker Sherrard
Replies
2
Views
1K
Ephraim Kibbey
Ephraim Kibbey
M
  • Locked
Allen Arms/Uberti Dragoon question
Replies
4
Views
657
Malamute
M
Fingers McGee
  • Locked
Special Baby Dragoon
Replies
14
Views
1K
bannockburn
bannockburn
S
  • Locked
Wells Fargo - Baby Dragoon hybrid
Replies
16
Views
3K
SC_Slowhand
SC_Slowhand
M
  • Locked
Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon
Replies
19
Views
3K
mec
M
Back
Top