Unusual Tucker & Sherrard Confederate Dragoon Replica

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dirt-poor

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This Tucker & Sherrard Confederate dragoon replica was made by Uberti. It has the distinctive Tucker & Sherrard / Clark & Sherrard characteristics, including the Texas-Arms cylinder engravings, the lack of a cut-out in the barrel for loading conical bullets, and a horizontal loading-lever latch. I found it on Gunbroker a couple of years ago. It was listed simply as an Uberti Dragoon with no model specified, and sold for no big money.

TS-Dragoon1.jpg TS-Dragoon2.jpg TS-Dragoon3.jpg TS-Dragoon4.jpg TS-Dragoon5.jpg

These replicas are best known as having been manufactured for Western Arms, who sold them for about two years beginning in 1978. A commemorative series with serial numbers T-1 to T-400 was offered in cased sets with accessories and certificates. Their barrels are stamped with “WESTERN ARMS CORP, SANTA FE, NM” on the top, “TUCKER SHERRARD & COMPANY” on the left side, and "Aldo Uberti & C." in script or in block letters on the right side. On some of them, these barrel markings and the cylinder engravings are highlighted in gold.

A basic gun-only version was also available. They came in cardboard Western Arms boxes and have ordinary serial numbers with no letter prefix. Their barrels are stamped with “WESTERN ARMS CORP, SANTA FE, NM” on the top and "TUCKER SHERRARD & COMPANY” on the left side. "A. UBERTI & C." is stamped on the left side of the frame.

In 1980, Western Arms Corp was successfully sued for trade-name infringement by the Olin Corporation, owner of Winchester Western Ammunition. Western Arms was dissolved and reformed with the name Allen Arms, which later merged with Cimarron Firearms. Uberti subsequently made more Tucker and Sherrards for both Allen Arms and Cimarron Firearms, and stamped them accordingly, so I have read -- have not seen an example or picture of any.

This particular T&S replica is unusual in that it is very plain with no company names on it. No Tucker & Sherrard, no Western Arms, no Uberti, and nobody else. It is identified only by an Uberti logo on the barrel under the loading lever and a serial number on the bottom of the frame. These are clearly stamped, but "BLACK POWDER ONLY," "MADE IN ITALY," the proof marks, and the date code were very lightly stamped. (The caliber stamp was omitted.)

The light impression of the date code has made it difficult to clearly determine the year of manufacture. The upper part of the second letter is especially light, and the lower part was not impressed into the steel at all. It looks like the date code would have been AB (1976). It could also have been AP (1986), but I think that would be too late.

In either case, this revolver was not made for Western Arms. A little too early or way too late; not stamped as a Western Arms gun, and not made according to the cosmetic standards that Western Arms specified. It wasn't made according to Uberti’s cosmetic standards either, as we know them today.

The faux color case hardened finish on the frame was an odd application of a synthetic substance of some kind with a slight texture. It coated the surface of the frame in swirling prom-dress colors and contrasting dark tones, but had no effect on coloring the steel itself. And it didn't adhere well. Some of it was scratched off when I got the gun. The rest rubbed off cleanly and easily with1000-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper. That's why the frame is blued, at least for now.

There were also superficial imperfections. The trigger guard, back strap and grip, for example -- the inner surfaces of these parts were well fit to the frame and to each other, but there was no final exterior fitting or finishing. There were tool marks on them and some overhanging material along the joints. These and other irregularities have been corrected.

Aside from the aesthetic deficiencies with which this dragoon left the factory, it was well put together as a shooter. The feature most especially worth noting is its properly-fit arbor.

TS-Dragoon6.jpg

As we have seen in more recent years, Uberti bypasses the lengthwise fitting of open-top percussion revolver arbors by making them too short. In this case, the arbor was obviously made with a slightly excessive length and then milled down from the face to the exact length required for the specific barrel it was intended to be used with. The end result is that it bottoms out in the arbor hole concurrently with the barrel lug joining against the frame. The union of frame and barrel is rock solid.

And this is a nice improvement for shooting purposes:

TS-Dragoon7.jpg

Although the origin of Colt's horizontal loading-lever latch is most clearly associated with the 1851 Navy, some of the 3rd Model Dragoons were manufactured with it also. So Tucker & Sherrard didn't devise a new concept in dragoon loading-lever latches. They just copied a good idea, which prevents the loading lever from dropping under recoil.

Finally, here's an interesting little detail I haven't seen before. The wedge retaining spring is attached with a screw rather than a pin.

TS-Dragoon8.jpg

Anything further on the history of these replicas would be appreciated. Any opinions, speculations or corrections to the info I have managed to put together would also be welcome.
 
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That's cool! I do find it a little hard to believe that Uberti would make a correct arbor for one version of revolvers and botch all the rest (it wasn't just recent production). I've not seen one to date with a correct arbor (from any maker except the Piettas of late).

Mike
 
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What an interesting and handsome revolver ! Some unique features and it looks great. Thanks for sharing.
 
That's cool! I do find it a little hard to believe that Uberti would make a correct arbor for one version of revolvers and botch all the rest (it wasn't just recent production). I've not seen one to date with a correct arbor (from any maker except the Piettas of late).

Mike
I'm glad you brought that up. I was thinking the correct arbor fit had to do with the time period when the gun was made. So they commonly cut them short back in the 1970s also. Did they ever have a habit of doing it right?
 
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I'm glad you brought that up. I was thinking the correct arbor fit had to do with the time period when the gun was made. So they commonly cut them short back in the 1970s also. Did they ever have a habit of doing it right?

No! That's what I meant in my post above. No replica open top revolver, by anybody, has ever been produced with a correct length arbor. Only the originals by Colt and more recently Pietta for the last dozen yrs or so. If you can drop a thin (but correct diameter, someone tried to explain away the shape of the bottom of the drilled hole) washer in the arbor hole and assemble your revolver, you have a short arbor. Or, if you can drive the wedge in far enough to lock the cylinder or change the barrel/cylinder clearance, you have a short arbor.

That said, if yours is correct, someone fixed it. I've never heard or seen of a wedge spring rivet replaced with a screw! That would go against any reasonable norm from a production perspective . . . a screw is much more expensive compared to a rivet and especially for a spring that isn't historically fragile.

Nonetheless, your revolver is a sweet example and nothing wrong with any of the "up grades"!! Heck, I'm in the " up grade" business!!!! Lol!

Mike
 
Nice review of a great replica, thanks!

The feature most especially worth noting is its properly-fit arbor.

hard to believe that Uberti would make a correct arbor for one version of revolvers

I was thinking the correct arbor fit had to do with the time period when the gun was made.

No replica open top revolver, by anybody, has ever been produced with a correct length arbor.

Hm.

And this:
There were also superficial imperfections. The trigger guard, back strap and grip, for example -- the inner surfaces of these parts were well fit to the frame and to each other, but there was no final exterior fitting or finishing. There were tool marks on them and some overhanging material along the joints.

got me thinkin': Did you luck out and win a prototype T&S on GB?
 
got me thinkin': Did you luck out and win a prototype T&S on GB?

Wow, you zeroed right in on a possibility that had occurred to me too, except that it took me a lot longer to think of it.

I had been curious about these replicas for around a year before buying one, and had done extensive searching on the internet for pictures and information pertaining to them. I saw multiple references stating that Uberti did not market any directly, but made them all for Western Arms, or for Western Arms, Allen Arms, and Cimarron (the common denominator being Leonard Allen). No references to any Uberti Tucker & Sherrards that fit into the picture any other way.

So when I found this one with no importer's name on it that, if made in 1976, was manufactured shortly prior to those produced for Western Arms, I wondered about it. My first thought was that maybe Uberti really did make and sell a few on their own before Western Arms took a special interest and became the exclusive seller.

I still think that’s possible, but have found nothing to support it. It also seems strange that the overall construction of this revolver was so surprisingly good and the finishing so uncharacteristically poor.

And the screw in the wedge. Somebody who owned this gun put it in as an upgrade? No way to tell for sure. but I can verify that it was well done. The screw has a properly-sized head, screws smoothly into a threaded hole, and terminates flush at the opening on the bottom side. I'm not aware of any other Uberti Tucker and Sherrards with a screw in the wedge, so if Uberti made one or more that way for these replicas, maybe it was just a novel design idea that didn't warrant regular production.

I'm still pondering all of this and hoping to learn more.
 
It also seems strange that the overall construction of this revolver was so surprisingly good and the finishing so uncharacteristically poor.
That's what makes me think it might've been a prototype.

Word comes down from upper managment that they want to make a Tucker & Sherrard replica, so they put an in-house gunsmith on the job. He takes the time to make the parts and make them work together as a proof-of-concept, but neither he nor the "finishing dept" bothers with cleaning it up for sale. If it functions and looks right from a distance, it then goes on to production, the first stage of which is to polish the exterior features and simplify the internal or custom parts. Future production models thus have a better faux case-hardening and the typical Uberti (ahem) Arbor Corto.

And as long as we're traipsing around in Possibilityland, maybe yours was custom produced for an upcoming Western feature film at the specific request of Sergio Leone hisself!!:):)
 
Word comes down from upper management that they want to make a Tucker & Sherrard replica, so they put an in-house gunsmith on the job. He takes the time to make the parts and make them work together as a proof-of-concept, but neither he nor the "finishing dept" bothers with cleaning it up for sale.
That actually sounds plausible. If the gun was made for pre-production planning or review or some such and not for retail distribution, then there would have been no need for meeting normal finishing standards.
And as long as we're traipsing around in Possibilityland, maybe yours was custom produced for an upcoming Western feature film at the specific request of Sergio Leone hisself!!
Well yeah, we could imagine that. Uberti rents the gun out for the movie as "custom produced," not only to defray the cost of making it, but to gouge Sergio for a pretty decent profit even before showing the piece to Leonard Allen for production approval. Then Allen nixes arbor fitting and wedge-spring screws in favor of putting more money into barrel stamping and finishing. Uberti, who already has that cost worked in anyway, tells Allen it's a very wise decision.
 
And thank you for the kind words, Zulch.
Hi. You got that good lookin' revolver on Gunbroker sir? I made one purchase there for a 1962 model of a Gregorelli/Uberti Navy late last year. A lot of the cap n ball go pretty high priced on those auctions as you well know. You said it went fairly cheap. That's great. I should go to GunBroker.com more often.:thumbup:
 
Hi. You got that good lookin' revolver on Gunbroker sir? I made one purchase there for a 1962 model of a Gregorelli/Uberti Navy late last year. A lot of the cap n ball go pretty high priced on those auctions as you well know. You said it went fairly cheap. That's great. I should go to GunBroker.com more often.

Yes sir, I got it on Gunbroker in the summer of 2019. That was 6 or 7 months before the WHO came out with its initial announcement about the Covid virus in January 2020. Things were still normal in the gun market and most other markets in 2019, but everything went further and further south as 2020 progressed.

What I called "no big money" was about $350, which was less than I thought it would go for, considering its rarity among replicas. One thing I think kept the price down was that most people who saw the listing probably didn't know there was anything special about this dragoon That information wasn't in the description. Another factor in my favor (as a bidder) was that the gun was not nearly so pretty then. And new, newer and better-looking Uberti dragoons were still readily available on Gunbroker and elsewhere. Nobody was fighting over them either at that time.

Now Gunbroker is a seller's market, if you can even find what you're looking for. In May of this year, I sold two Pietta 1858 Remingtons on Gunbroker at the same time. One was an older .44 Army in unfired condition and the other was a .36 Navy in used, but very good condition. I estimated their total value together to be about $500, but the bidding on both of them went way beyond expectations. The total for both sales was over $900.

Yes, even now, it pays to keep checking Gunbroker and other online gun auction sites for things you're interested in. You never know when something will pop up. I have a long habit of doing the same thing on ebay for parts or whatever. I bought a few Pietta parts on ebay just recently that were unavailable everywhere else I looked. I overpaid, of course, but at least I got what I needed!

A 1962 Uberti Navy -- that sounds pretty interesting. Goes way back in Uberti's replica history. Colt Navy, right? 1851?
 
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Yes sir, I got it on Gunbroker in the summer of 2019. That was 6 or 7 months before the WHO came out with its initial announcement about the Covid virus in January 2020. Things were still normal in the gun market and most other markets in 2019, but everything went further and further south as 2020 progressed.

What I called "no big money" was about $350, which was less than I thought it would go for, considering its rarity among replicas. One thing I think kept the price down was that most people who saw the listing probably didn't know there was anything special about this dragoon That information wasn't in the description. Another factor in my favor (as a bidder) was that the gun was not nearly so pretty then. And new, newer and better-looking Uberti dragoons were still readily available on Gunbroker and elsewhere. Nobody was fighting over them either at that time.

Now Gunbroker is a seller's market, if you can even find what you're looking for. In May of this year, I sold two Pietta 1858 Remingtons on Gunbroker at the same time. One was an older .44 Army in unfired condition and the other was a .36 Navy in used, but very good condition. I estimated their total value together to be about $500, but the bidding on both of them went way beyond expectations. The total for both sales was over $900.

Yes, even now, it pays to keep checking Gunbroker and other online gun auction sites for things you're interested in. You never know when something will pop up. I have a long habit of doing the same thing on ebay for parts or whatever. I bought a few Pietta parts on ebay just recently that were unavailable everywhere else I looked. I overpaid, of course, but at least I got what I needed!

A 1962 Uberti Navy -- that sounds pretty interesting. Goes way back in Uberti's replica history. Colt Navy, right? 1851?

dirt_poor. Thanks for the reply. Yes, a Colt 1851 Navy. I paid $300 for it. Some folks more knowledgeable than me said i paid a little too much for it but I don’t regret it. I like it a lot bottom line.
I would like a 3d gen dragoon and an 1860 for my next purchases but I’m going to be more patient this time.
I read some good stuff about old ASMs so I be lookin out for them of late. Do you have any thoughts on ASMs?
Don’t you love it when things work out like with your purchase ? It was flying under the radar but you got it!! I like stories like that:thumbup:. So where am I now? Back watching gunbroker.com. :rofl:Who knows right? Maybe I’ll find what I’m looking for. Hope your having a good weekend and thanks again. Tim
 
dirt_poor. Thanks for the reply. Yes, a Colt 1851 Navy. I paid $300 for it. Some folks more knowledgeable than me said i paid a little too much for it but I don’t regret it. I like it a lot bottom line.
I would like a 3d gen dragoon and an 1860 for my next purchases but I’m going to be more patient this time.
I read some good stuff about old ASMs so I be lookin out for them of late. Do you have any thoughts on ASMs?
Don’t you love it when things work out like with your purchase ? It was flying under the radar but you got it!! I like stories like that:thumbup:. So where am I now? Back watching gunbroker.com. :rofl:Who knows right? Maybe I’ll find what I’m looking for. Hope your having a good weekend and thanks again. Tim

Those old Gregorelli & Uberti guns are beautiful, collectible, and not easy to find. Like anything else, the value of any one of them would be heavily influenced by its condition. And like anything else, the bottom line would be its intrinsic value to whoever buys it. So maybe $300 is a flat-out steal. Doesn't sound too high to me.

My very first percussion revolver was an ASM Walker. I had more fun with that gun back then than with any firearm I've ever owned. One thing I didn't learn until years later is that the diameter of the chambers in the cylinders of ASM revolvers is just a little small (by several thousandths of an inch) in relation to the bore. Balls coming out of the chamber after the ring has been shaved off when they were loaded enter the barrel making full contact with the lands of the rifling, but not engaging fully enough with the grooves to prevent gas from blowing past them in the barrel and as they exit the muzzle. This can affect accuracy. I learned about it by reading, and not from experience. I never noticed an accuracy problem, but I did compare the ASM chamber and bore relationship to an Uberti dragoon, and saw the difference I read about. I still like ASMs. One drawback other than the possible accuracy thing is that parts are hard to find.

I'm sorry to say I have a low opinion of 2nd and 3rd generation Colt percussion revolvers. They are cool and collectible, but were not consistently well made. The most money I ever wasted on a gun was on a 2nd-generation dragoon. I'm still holding a grudge about it six years later. I also had a 3rd-generation dragoon, which was much better, but had a couple of problems to deal with. The only real difference between these Colts and Uberti replicas is that Colt made them with Uberti parts and Uberti makes them better with Uberti parts. The guys putting them together for Colt were very good at finishing the revolvers. Not so good at building them, as far I know from personal experience.

And Yeah, I really was lucky finding the Tucker & Sherrard and being able to buy it without going broke in a bidding war. I hope you'll be just as lucky in your next purchase also.
 
Those old Gregorelli & Uberti guns are beautiful, collectible, and not easy to find. Like anything else, the value of any one of them would be heavily influenced by its condition. And like anything else, the bottom line would be its intrinsic value to whoever buys it. So maybe $300 is a flat-out steal. Doesn't sound too high to me.

My very first percussion revolver was an ASM Walker. I had more fun with that gun back then than with any firearm I've ever owned. One thing I didn't learn until years later is that the diameter of the chambers in the cylinders of ASM revolvers is just a little small (by several thousandths of an inch) in relation to the bore. Balls coming out of the chamber after the ring has been shaved off when they were loaded enter the barrel making full contact with the lands of the rifling, but not engaging fully enough with the grooves to prevent gas from blowing past them in the barrel and as they exit the muzzle. This can affect accuracy. I learned about it by reading, and not from experience. I never noticed an accuracy problem, but I did compare the ASM chamber and bore relationship to an Uberti dragoon, and saw the difference I read about. I still like ASMs. One drawback other than the possible accuracy thing is that parts are hard to find.

I'm sorry to say I have a low opinion of 2nd and 3rd generation Colt percussion revolvers. They are cool and collectible, but were not consistently well made. The most money I ever wasted on a gun was on a 2nd-generation dragoon. I'm still holding a grudge about it six years later. I also had a 3rd-generation dragoon, which was much better, but had a couple of problems to deal with. The only real difference between these Colts and Uberti replicas is that Colt made them with Uberti parts and Uberti makes them better with Uberti parts. The guys putting them together for Colt were very good at finishing the revolvers. Not so good at building them, as far I know from personal experience.

And Yeah, I really was lucky finding the Tucker & Sherrard and being able to buy it without going broke in a bidding war. I hope you'll be just as lucky in your next purchase also.

dirt-poor,
Good morning. Thanks for your more detailed thoughts and experience with the ASM's. As I've said, I've never owned one. Scarcity of parts is enough to make one have second thoughts, so thank you. If I may ask, why do you dislike the 1st and 2d gen Dragoons?
I've never owned a Dragoon. Would you mind elaborating on your experience with them? I do know someone experienced with the Dragoon and they swear by the 3d generation. I really appreciate your time and thanks for your willingness to share :thumbup:. Thank you, Tim
 
Lol wut.

This is definitely not true.

Ok Mr. JCooperfan1911, tell all . . . I love to learn about these things!! Tell me which makers (since I've been correcting all of them for the past 7 years) made correct length arbors By the way, your wedge slot fix you posted about in the "gunsmithing" section is flat out wrong so . . . Im all ears!! Lol

Mike
 
Ok Mr. JCooperfan1911, tell all . . . I love to learn about these things!! Tell me which makers (since I've been correcting all of them for the past 7 years) made correct length arbors By the way, your wedge slot fix you posted about in the "gunsmithing" section is flat out wrong so . . . Im all ears!! Lol

Mike[/QUOTE
Mike. Hi. By the way? I’ve read some posts where they say newer Pietta’ have correct arbor length? Your thoughts? Thank you, Tim
 
Mike hope you could read that last post. Somehow it became all a quote:cuss: leave it to me to mess that up :rofl:
 
Ok Mr. JCooperfan1911, tell all . . . I love to learn about these things!! Tell me which makers (since I've been correcting all of them for the past 7 years) made correct length arbors By the way, your wedge slot fix you posted about in the "gunsmithing" section is flat out wrong so . . . Im all ears!! Lol

Mike

My last two 2020 Piettas have correct length arbors.

The barrel, cylinder gap does not change when seating the wedge and the gap is at roughly .005” on both weapons and they fire perfectly with no fouling issues whatever and excellent accuracy. The arbor properly bottoms out and the barrel will not overlap the frame when installing it at a 90° angle on the arbor. That clearance is set at .005” and the wedge simply pins the two pieces together, exactly as it is designed to do. Contrary to popular belief but the wedge on Colt percussion revolvers is NOT meant as a clearance adjustment device. It is purely there to hold the gun together.

We can debate all day on “perfect” BC gap on a percussion revolver, but I consider that about ideal. I know you like yours a bit tighter but that doesn’t mean .005” is “wrong” as it clearly works great.

You sure come off terribly smug my man.

And I have never posted about repairing any wedges. You’d better be sure you’ve got the right person before throwing accusations around.
 
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Ok everyone, in my first post in this thread (post #2 above) the last line says "' . . . except the Piettas of late". It's well known and been talked about ad nauseum that Pietta fixed the arbor problem a dozen yrs or so ago. Uberti and all the others (including Pietta of more than a dozen yrs or so ago) have short arbors . . . end of story. And, Mr. Cooper fan, when you call me a lier, it typically brings out the "smugness " in me . . . it's just the way I am . . .

Mike

After looking back at the thread in the "gunsmithing" section, you are correct Mr JCooper. It was another poster that seems to "shoot from the hip" so I apologize but then as far as "throwing accusations around" , that goes for calling folks liars as well . . . my man!!
 
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