Two legged dangers in National Parks

[9MMare]

I think this Bill Wade must be suffering some aging & reasoning problems. The greater prevalence of armed LAW ABIDING people in the parks is what would have stopped that attack at Mt Rainier, not the disarming of the visitors. A person armed in self defense is ALL that would have stood in the way of any assault. If anything, this disputes the anti-gunners argument. Once again, common sense appears to not be so common.

I agree. This man was running...trying to avoid consequences from shootings the nite before. He was looking for the fastest and least populated route out of the area....thru the park.

No laws would have stopped him. This, to me, is a huge DUH and a common falsehood that anti-gun people seem to buy into without question. I dont get it???

 

[Mainsail]

This man was running...trying to avoid consequences from shootings the nite before. He was looking for the fastest and least populated route out of the area....thru the park.

The road up to Paradise is a dead end, it doesn't go through to anywhere. Also, unless the Park was running some sort of holiday special, he would have had to stop and pay the Park entrance fee down at the base of the mountain.

 

[9MMare]

Yes, esp considering the roads that go 'thru' the park are always closed in winter.

But it seems pretty obvious he was not in his right mind, at all. He abandoned his vehicle and his weapons after the shooting. He headed out on foot without proper supplies. This ex-soldier should have been able to take better care of himself.

I'm very sorry that this soldier didnt get the help he needed...his wife and others tried. You cant make someone accept help tho and he may have been like this before he enlisted. There is no excuse for his actions but intervention may have saved lives here.

 

[marksman13]

People like Benjamin Colton gives veterans everywhere a bad name. I wish people would stop blaming this shooting on his military service. Some people are just nuts. Iraq didn't make hime crazy. I did my stint. Sure it affects me from time to time. There are days that are tough for me emotionally. Days that we lost guys are always hard, as are Veteran's Day and Memorial Day, but I'm not running around shooting at people. ]

I honestly worry that at some point somebody is going to use veteran status as a reason to deny gun ownership. Every time a veteran does something stupid with a firearm, that is the first comment from the media and the message boards. So and so was a military veteran. Should have gotten help. System neglected them, blah, blah, blah. Help is available for those that want it. Please stop harping on the fact that this criminal was a veteran. He doesn't represent us in any way, shape or form.

 

[Nuclear]

Let's see, the Superstition Mountains down here in AZ have been dangerous due to drug activities for years (decades?) and the federal government closed down areas adjacent to the Mexican border because of the danger to hikers, etc., from smugglers (drug and human). Now I've personally never had any 2-legged problems in parks or national forests, but the problems I've encountered in life could have just as easily happened in one of those locales.

 

[Curator]

August, 1970 my Boy Scout troop was robbed at gun point on the Appalachian trail inside Great Smokey National Park. All the dirt-bags got was some pocket money and a couple of watches. Apparently the father-son team had done this several times but the Smokies would rather hassle law-abiding folks. They went thorugh our back-packs and made us empty our pockets for reporting the incident. They thought we might have had drugs or some other incentive that "incited the locals." Yeah, right! It used to be that the "Brownie Bears" were looking out for you--not any more. My last experience in Everglades National Park five years ago, made me realize this is no longer true.

 

[oldranger]

As a log time lurker at THR, I have followed this thread with high interest, and decided to register before the unfortunate incident at Mt Rainier. As an NPS retiree, I am heartsick for the needless deaths involved. Hopefully, a positive outcome could be better care for today's veterans.

I think one aspect of the discussion has been overlooked - a realistic appraisal of the threat profile that faces one when venturing into the outdoors or wilderness areas. By far the most common causes for fatalities and injuries are falls and drowning, followed by fatalities from extreme weather. Even fatalities from "four legged" threats are rate. In fact, honey bees kill more people than do bears, tiggers, and all the other critters.

Be sure that you are appropriately prepared for the most likely threats you will encounter. That means that an eippen, or a climbing rope (provided someone has training), may be a better item to carry than a 357 magnum. For each of us there is a limit to how much one drag into the woods. It is worth a good deal of thought to make sure that every item has a useful and realistic purpose.

The woods are very different these days than when I began my outdoors career in the 1960s. Living and working in southern Arizona, we frequently hiked along, and over the border. No problems whatever. That is definitely not the case now. My pack would probably be different these days if I were hiking in that area.

My point is that it isn't just an "always carry," or "never carry" situation. In many situations there are other things that make more sense than a firearm, but that is not invariably true.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

In many situations there are other things that make more sense than a firearm

That's fine. You carry those "other things" if defending yourself with a hank of rope makes more sense to you. If I can legally carry a firearm, I'm CARRYING a FIREARM. My G19 weighs ~1.5 lbs. loaded. Plus, good handgun training is (IMHO) more FUN than eippen training (but I could be wrong 'cause I'm not clear what an "eippen" is).

 

[bhesler]

I think he meant epipen, an automated injector of epinephrine which shuts down the immune response to bee stings and other severe allergies.

 

[oldranger]

Yes, thank you - that was an unfortunate typo. And, to reply to the previous poster, there have been numerous occasions (more than 100) where a "hank of rope" (actually about 30 to 50 meters of climbing nylon) has been much more critical to my health and safety,as well as the health and safety of those with me, than a firearm. So too have been adequate clothing and shelter and the means to make fire. Against that, I can recall one situation where I was GLAD I had my S&W 28 (not a wilderness setting, however) and one where I would not have minded having my 28, but I solved the situation without it.

My point is, evaluate the situation and make a rational decision.

I would generalize that the deeper you are into the wilderness, the less you need a weapon - also the more likely the weight of weapon and ammo can be better replaced by other items.

 

[marksman13]

Honestly, if you can't handle the extra weight of a S&W Airweight, or Glock 19, you probably don't need to be in the woods and away from rapid medical attention. You are setting up a straw-man argument. There is no need to choose between firearm and rope/food/matches/clothes/kitchen sink etc...
The obvious choice is to carry all needed survival gear and a light weight firearm.

I carried enough gear and food to survive for 5 days every time I left the wire in Iraq in addition to an M9, M4 and often an M21. No reason any able bodied human being couldn't carry a light weight firearm in his or her ruck. Rather that person chooses to carry it or not is a different matter entirely.

 

[p35]

They are now saying that they found this knucklehead dead of exposure (ie hypothermia) about a mile into the woods from the shooting site. Wearing a T-shirt, one sneaker, and jeans, and still heavily armed.

This just proves what oldranger was saying- a firearm is pretty far down the priority list of essential equipment for wilderness survival. Not that it's a bad idea, just not that important.

When I was a teenager doing search & rescue we used to have what we called "hunting camp"- on the busiest days of hunting season we would set up at a campground up in the mountains and wait for the calls. Found a lot of hunters who had a fancy rifle and a .44 Mag revolver, but didn't bring a map, compass, or extra food and clothing. We didn't always find them alive.

 

[Frank Black]

Marksman13 - The liberal media won't change their style of reporting. It's just a cheap and easy shot for them. They yammer about individual rights, and in the same breath, rush to tag veterans as almost sub-human.

They continue to repeat the same pattern after every conflict. The Hollywood script mills cranked out crazy veteran villains after WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Our present-day "journalists" often mistake gangster movies for history. They'd probably describe Dwight Eisenhower as a burned-out vet. After I returned from Vietnam, the typical TV or movie bad guy was so often a drug- crazed Vietnam vet that even the liberal movie critics became bored with the concept. Of course that took about ten years.

I know that being labelled in such a way is very annoying, but eventually you may come to view their rantings as part of the background noise. Most of them are so self-absorbed that they can't band together to effect change. And they have no sense of duty as we understand it.

Their babbling can't diminish you. You know what you did, and why. When you've been true to yourself, nothing else matters.

 

[CZguy]

Originally posted by marksman13,

Honestly, if you can't handle the extra weight of a S&W Airweight, or Glock 19, you probably don't need to be in the woods and away from rapid medical attention. You are setting up a straw-man argument. There is no need to choose between firearm and rope/food/matches/clothes/kitchen sink etc...
The obvious choice is to carry all needed survival gear and a light weight firearm.

I carried enough gear and food to survive for 5 days every time I left the wire in Iraq in addition to an M9, M4 and often an M21. No reason any able bodied human being couldn't carry a light weight firearm in his or her ruck. Rather that person chooses to carry it or not is a different matter entirely.

You beat me to it. The concept put forward by oldranger that the one and a half pounds to carry a S&W model 28 (as he did) as opposed to more useful survival gear is based on those limits. For forty years I've tailored the equipment for each trip specific for the hurdles that I might encounter.

Consequently the times that I've needed first aid kit, matches, compass etc. I've not only survived, but been pretty comfortable. I've never needed a gun, but like marksman13 pointed out. An airweight is pretty easy to carry.

But I cut half of my toothbrush handle off.

 

[marksman13]

CZGuy, who needs a toothbrush? You could save room in your pack by just using a willow branch. Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Won't happen again.

 

[purpplehaze]

There is nothing that can replace a dog. They smell things you cant smell and hear things you cannot hear. They are an invaluable as a warning system and a best friend. Every night my lab / retriever mix, Dogmeat sleeps at the foot of my bed and nothing makes me feel safer. Good story radshooter!

I totally agree, a dog is the only true friend a person can have. Forever loyal except when you leave your large bowl of shrimp fried rice on your coffee table... (love you Penny)

 

[CZguy]

CZGuy, who needs a toothbrush? You could save room in your pack by just using a willow branch. Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Won't happen again.

I can carry a half a tooth brush (admittedly a luxury item) because having a left hand, I don't need to carry toilet paper. Allah Akbar.

 

[marksman13]

Haha. I hear ya. I prefer leaves over a hand, but I'll make a public confession. I'm not leaving home without some TP stashed somewhere. Sacrificed a dang fine Under Armor shirt in Iraq one day due to an absence of Charmin. Never again. Never, ever again. Man, I miss that shirt.

 

[Nuclear]

Carrying a 1 lb handgun when I'm already packing a Camelbak full of water (and water for my dog and food and first aid kit, etc.) doesn't seem like that big an imposition. I've never needed a gun while hiking, but I've never needed most of the stuff I take hiking.

 

[9MMare]

People like Benjamin Colton gives veterans everywhere a bad name. I wish people would stop blaming this shooting on his military service. Some people are just nuts. Iraq didn't make hime crazy. I did my stint. Sure it affects me from time to time. There are days that are tough for me emotionally. Days that we lost guys are always hard, as are Veteran's Day and Memorial Day, but I'm not running around shooting at people. ]

I honestly worry that at some point somebody is going to use veteran status as a reason to deny gun ownership. Every time a veteran does something stupid with a firearm, that is the first comment from the media and the message boards. So and so was a military veteran. Should have gotten help. System neglected them, blah, blah, blah. Help is available for those that want it. Please stop harping on the fact that this criminal was a veteran. He doesn't represent us in any way, shape or form.

I agree, but it may be shining a more necessary light on the help that many veterans need and arent getting, for one reason or another. They are linking him to our local base here, Joint Lewis McCord, saying it is one of the most troubled US bases with high numbers of suicides and violent crimes.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...ier-killing-stationed-at-deeply-troubled-base

And initially the fact that he was an Iraq veteran was important to tracking him down and alerting the public. A heavily-armed and trained soldier, not hesitating to kill and possibly still with high-powered weapons, was on the run and that certainly upgrades his status as a threat.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Hmmm, the same character background as Rambo..................

 

[Zombiphobia]

I found a guy who didn't know where he was or how he got there. Said he woke up 4 or 5 days before and had seemed to just been wandering the roads. Tried opening the doors to get in, including my wife;s door. Showed him my pistol and told him to back up we'd be back with help for him. He obviusly wasn't in his right mind, beyond being hungry, dehydrated and suffering heat exhaustion. Called the police; he lied about who he was, had a warrant etc.. Gave him some water and stayed to make sure the LEO didn't have any problems with him and then went on my way.

PS. for the record, this was in a National Forrest and he was given several verbal warnings to back off and no room in the car was available BEFORE I went for my weapon.

 

[gunnutery]

Carrying a 1 lb handgun when I'm already packing a Camelbak full of water (and water for my dog and food and first aid kit, etc.)doesn't seem like that big an imposition.

You should make your dog carry his own stuff and save you the effort. They make some good side saddles for dogs.

 

[JustinJ]

You should make your dog carry his own stuff and save you the effort. They make some good side saddles for dogs.

How about holsters? My dog walk at the heel so if he stays on the right side i could still draw relatively fast.

 

[rodensouth]

I hadn't even thought about DOG carry!