Happy holidays everyone! We recently moved and lost a few items during the move. During the election of the last president I decided to horde small pistol primers and bought 20,000 of them. Two cases now lost. Got the bench up and running and have loaded pretty much all the 9mm primers left. This is sad. Have any of you a suggestion on who might be having a sale? Second. I have a bunch of 124gr SWC 9mm. I'd like to make some soft loads for quicker acquisition at the range. Mostly I am down to only having Bullseye. 4.7gr makes for a rather nice round but I'm told Bullseye isn't the best for a soft 9? Looking for ideas there also. Thanks. Hope you all get new reloading gifts from Santa! Wait, one more. Would the 115gr or the 147gr make for a better soft range load?
Two parts: Where are primer sales? Low power 124gr 9mm powder?
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Ouch.
Keep an eye on the where are reloading components on sale thread stickied at the top.
I use N320 for 124s at 1050ish from a 5" barrel plinkers, but others work well, like Sport Pistol for instance.
fxvr5
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Different bullet weights have a different feel in their recoil impulse. Heavy bullets, like the 147s, feel softer, generally thought to be because they don't have to accelerate as quickly as lighter bullets because the 147s don't need to reach the same speed.
Not quite. They feel softer for a given power factor because they don't require as much powder. Rate of acceleration has zero to do with it. The bullet is gone from a semi-auto before the vast majority of the recoil reaches your hand (which happens when the slide stops at the end of its travel). You cannot feel the bullet accelerating within the barrel. Not physically possible. You feel the net result at the end.
Starter52
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4.0 grains of AutoComp and a 147 grain plated bullet has been my beginner load for the last five summers. Another easy shooting load is 3.9 grains of Green Dot and a 124 grain bullet.
The AutoComp load is my favorite. Clean, accurate, low recoil and totally reliable in all my 9mm guns.
The AutoComp load is my favorite. Clean, accurate, low recoil and totally reliable in all my 9mm guns.
nettlle
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I use Bullseye for 124gr SWC. If I want softer 9mm I just use less Bullseye. It may work differently with other pistol powders.
1KPerDay
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3.8 promo
4.2 WST
4.2 W231
Pretty much any published starting charge I’ve tried with any powder.
all are suitably soft for me. Much softer than factory ball of any weight.
4.2 WST
4.2 W231
Pretty much any published starting charge I’ve tried with any powder.
all are suitably soft for me. Much softer than factory ball of any weight.
nettlle
Contributing Member
Is there a softness test for powders?
fxvr5
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It's true that when driven to the same power factor with the same gunpowder in the same caliber, a heavy bullet produces less recoil force than lighter bullets.
The net result that you feel has a 'speed' component, too.
It's also generally true that light bullets have a snappier recoil than heavier bullets when driven to the same power factor. The usual reason for this is that the light bullets have to accelerate faster to reach their required higher speed, than heavy bullets that have to reach a lower required speed. https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/99399
Using the numbers from that link (calculations for a 2 pound gun);
185 gr bullet at 891 fps, 6.6 gr powder
= 4.78 ft lbs recoil, recoil velocity = 12.40 fps
quickload estimates getting a 185 grain bullet to 891 fps takes 0.710ms of time in a 5" barrel
230 gr bullet at 717 fps, 5.2 gr powder
= 4.61 ft lbs recoil, recoil velocity = 12.18 fps
quickload estimates getting a 230 grain bullet to 718 fps (closest I could get with QL to 717 fps) takes 0.867ms of time in a 5" barrel
The quicker acceleration of the lighter bullet produces less barrel time and a faster recoil impulse.
fxvr5
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Softness? No. Recoil force? Yes.
nettlle
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Based on the type/brand of powder?
fxvr5
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The recoil force is based on how much powder is required to push the same bullet to the same speed. Generally, more powder weight produces more recoil under the conservation of mass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas
Thus, a powder that requires more weight to push the same bullet to the same speed produces more recoil force. Formulas that calculate recoil force require the weight of the gunpowder for the best estimate. http://kwk.us/recoil.html
Generally, fast burning powders require less weight to push the same bullet to the same speed than slow burning powders.
An actual demonstration of different powders producing different amounts of recoil to push the same bullet to the same speed can be found here:
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/99442
ArchAngelCD
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My 9mm range ammo is made with a 124/125gr bullet and W231/HP-38. I charge between 4.0gr and 4.4gr W231.
For inexpensive 9mm range ammo 124gr coated bullets from Missouri Bullets work great. I usually use CCI-500 primers.
How the heck did you lose 20k primers? Gone or misplaced in a box somewhere in the house?
For inexpensive 9mm range ammo 124gr coated bullets from Missouri Bullets work great. I usually use CCI-500 primers.
How the heck did you lose 20k primers? Gone or misplaced in a box somewhere in the house?
1KPerDay
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Have to be really careful comparing OALs particularly across different bullet profiles. I load MBC’s smallball 125 grain LRN but I have to seat them to 1.088” to get them to plunk in my SIG. if you used that as gospel for all 124/125 pills you might get into serious trouble.
That said, I generally try to reach 1.15” in my 124 RN loads unless the chamber tells me otherwise. LiveLife is educating me on why this might not be the best for accuracy.
you have to work up a new load with each new profile and powder for your guns. This adage start low and work up is never a bad idea unless you’re shooting W296 in a magnum.
That is correct. The speed component is the speed of bullet and ejecta coming out of the gun. Milisecond differences in rate of acceleration are not a factor.
[shakes head] Humans cannot perceive differences smaller than about 10 ms. They certainly cannot perceive a 0.1 or 0.2ms difference, which is the time difference indicated by your numbers.
You're making this far too complicated. If you look up the formula for recoil velocity, you will not find an acceleration component, nor a bullet dwell time component. The momentum of the bullet and ejecta will equal the momentum of the gun in the opposite direction. The reason the heavier bullets feel softer at the same momentum (PF) is because the lighter bullets have more ejecta. And more gas/flash/pop contributing to the perception of recoil on top of the difference in actual/mechanical recoil.
I agree with your post https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-power-124gr-9mm-powder.860352/#post-11321044 . You said pretty much all of it right there. You just don't need to add the acceleration/barrel time garnish to it.
lordpaxman
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Soft loads - are you looking for a specific velocity, ie need to make a specific power factor, or just a powder puff load? I can’t speak for Bullseye but IMR Target will make a really soft shooting load that will cycle an auto, especially with a coated lead bullet. It’s near the starting load data point. I also second @Walkalong with N320 or SP. Now if you have to make minor, then I withdraw the IMR Target recommendation.
And the other posts are in line with what I do, faster powers with heavier bullets at the same power factor will result in a less felt recoil. I’ve found coated lead at the same weight will be a bit better than a jacketed bullet due to the amount of powder needed to get the jacketed moving at the same speed. But then you get in to secondary considerations with reloading coated lead and you need to be careful not to degrade your precision.
greyling22
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I'm using wsf for my powder puff loads. It's something like 900 fps out of a handun. Had to go that light to stay subsonic out of the sbr. Last deal on
Rimers I saw was for cases of fiocchi primers from midsouth.
Rimers I saw was for cases of fiocchi primers from midsouth.
fxvr5
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You can come up with all the excuses you want, but the shooter (at least this shooter) can feel a difference in the recoil impulse between light bullets and heavy bullets, and it's not just more/less recoil force. Light bullets have a snappy feel and heavy bullets have a pushy feel.
Please cite your reference for the human perception of ms and let's see if it applies to felt recoil.
Of course humans can tell the difference between bullet weights at the same PF. For the reasons that you and I have both identified. Our only disagreement is whether there is some extra component of the explanation relating to whether humans can feel the difference between a .7 and a .8 millisecond bullet barrel dwell time.
Do any kind of google search an human perceptual speed and you will find that asking a human to detect a .1 or .2 millisecond difference is like trying to use a truck scale to weigh a powder charge. It doesn't operate on anything like that level of resolution.
And that's without the fact that in tilting-barrel pistols the human is substantially insulated/buffered from the recoil until the slide slams into the frame at the rear of the stroke.
The reason that heavier bullets feel softer is because they generate less recoil (at same PF) because they have less ejecta, and because they aren't contributing as much blast/flash/pop to the brain's synesthetic perceptions of light and sound and blast as "recoil." There's no mystery here. You've given the answer... you just keep adding this acceleration component to it that isn't necessary to explain the phenomenon... and also happens to be wrong.
Do any kind of google search an human perceptual speed and you will find that asking a human to detect a .1 or .2 millisecond difference is like trying to use a truck scale to weigh a powder charge. It doesn't operate on anything like that level of resolution.
And that's without the fact that in tilting-barrel pistols the human is substantially insulated/buffered from the recoil until the slide slams into the frame at the rear of the stroke.
The reason that heavier bullets feel softer is because they generate less recoil (at same PF) because they have less ejecta, and because they aren't contributing as much blast/flash/pop to the brain's synesthetic perceptions of light and sound and blast as "recoil." There's no mystery here. You've given the answer... you just keep adding this acceleration component to it that isn't necessary to explain the phenomenon... and also happens to be wrong.
There are those of us who can feel "sharp" vs "pushy" and those who cannot, and we have debated this before. Am I crazy because a 125 Gr at 1325 FPS feels sharp and painful vs a 158 at 1250 FPS that feels like a big push?
Might be, dunno, but it isn't the only load with a fast or medium speed powder that feels sharp compared to a comparable one with slower powders.
Might be, dunno, but it isn't the only load with a fast or medium speed powder that feels sharp compared to a comparable one with slower powders.
1KPerDay
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It would be fun to do a double blind test and see if it’s shooter perception based on knowledge of the bullet weight and load or whether the perception is detectable. I can definitely feel MORE recoil compared to less recoil in obviously lighter loads of the same bullet weight, but I don’t think I can tell between similar power factor loads of 115 vs 147 for example. I haven’t done a lot of eval though.
I can also definitely tell “loud” powders and notice that indoors the louder and flashier powders create the perception of greater recoil for me. I doubt there’s a significant difference in force... but there’s a definite difference in my perception of force.
in .357 in a light pistol, I strongly prefer 125s over 158s. Go figure.
I can also definitely tell “loud” powders and notice that indoors the louder and flashier powders create the perception of greater recoil for me. I doubt there’s a significant difference in force... but there’s a definite difference in my perception of force.
in .357 in a light pistol, I strongly prefer 125s over 158s. Go figure.
Someday we'll have to go double-blind test this!
I actually don't dispute that different loads with different powders and different weights feel different. The question is what are people feeling. I think the explanations on what is physically happening are pretty easy. I think the explanations on how some people's brains interpret certain inputs are more murky.
If you do the recoil calculation on the two loads I mentioned, the 158 shows a higher "recoil velocity" than the 125, but the 125 feels sharper. Maybe it is just over all a faster recoil impulse. One is not fun after a few cylinders, one continues to be easy to shoot.
I want to come back to target quicker and believe that a "softer" load will help me train. With the hope of advancing the load as speed is acquired. I know that some competitions will check loads looking for "soft" loads. This leads me to believe that a softer load must help with quicker acquisition. As for how I lost two cases of 10,000 primers each? Well, ask my darling Wife, I can lose anything, anywhere at anytime! Thank for the interesting reads.
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