Tyros, novices and newbies....

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Dave McCracken

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What do you want to ask but haven't?

From the numbers of views on some threads, it looks to me like there's lots of folks out there using this as a learning tool, which tickles me to death.

Between Erick,Al,Paul,Howard, myself and others here too numerous to mention,we've got a century or two of shotgunning experience to draw upon.

Anyway, let's hear from the folks who haven't been using shotguns since Coolidge was Prez and would like some input on whatever's bothering them.

For those shy folks that read but not post, PM me and I'll answer privately or post publicly but anonymously so the think tank can give you the answers you need.
 
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Hi Dave,

well I've got a bunch of questions - in no particular order:

1. I've got a couple of 30 cal ammo boxes (mil surplus type) of 12 gauge rounds going back the better part of 50 years - my late father never through away a live round in his life. How do I find out what these are worth (if anything - a lot of them are paper), how do I sell the ones that are worth something (I have my dad's deer rifle and my brother has his shotgun) and how do I determine which ones are still safe to fire?

2 I have a Mossy 500 (with the ported barrel) with interchangeable slug and shot barrels and the interchangable chokes for the shot barrel. Call me stupid but I didn't look at the slug barrel until recently (I never needed to, okay?) and I discovered that the rear sight on the slug barrel ISN'T there. The base is, but the sight isn't - what do I do that wont cost me an arm and a leg?

3. Is there one standard way to determine when and with what, to use which choke? everybody has opinions, but nobody has facts!?

4. for my HD shotgun, (870 Express, 12 Gauge) is it worth it to pay to have the gold bead replaced and if so, how much should I pay and with what should it be replaced?

how's that for starters? :)
 
Arlin, here goes....

Post over on Shooting Sportsman magazine's BB about the shells. Single shells have little value, full boxes may.

Assuming proper gauge and chamber length, old shells kept dry and cool can be fired safely. Quality of pattern is oft terrible. You've no idea how much better new ammo is.

Mossberg probably will send you a new rear sight at nomimal cost. Many smiths carry spares, so call around.

The only way I know of to determine which choke to use with which load and mission from a given shotgun is patterning and actual use. Each shotgun is a law unto itself.I suggest picking the load and mission(Clays, geese, gobblers, goblins), range and then choke.A good all around choke is probably something like Light Modified, which I'd define as about .015".

HD shotguns USUALLY work well with beads. In low light, good form and fit can mean the bead's a little superflous. Before dropping major bucks on an Ashley Outdoors radioactive dot or the more fragile green worm F/Os, try a $2 bottle of Testor's Enamel in Bright Yellow. Your local hobby shop should have it. Next up, if that doesn't do it, might be the bigger Bradley type beads seen on target shotguns.

HTH....
 
Thanks!!

I'm new around this board--just getting back into guns that I loved shooting from my youth. Went to the range this past weekend for the first time in years and LOVED every minute of it!! I didn't want to go home! :D

I've made myself a shopping list and have figured out what I'm getting for a rifle (Ruger 10/22 target for plinking, haven't picked a scope yet), handgun (Glock 17 and 26, H&K USP .45 next on the list) but now I need a shotgun recommendation!

I don't do any hunting but I love to shoot skeet (I'm a well seasoned novice). Can anyone make some recommendations on what I should be looking at? Ideally it'd be something that could double for home defense but it's not an absolute requirement. I'll definitely be getting a Class III weapon for home defense/shooting fun (recommendations welcome too!).

Cost isn't a concern---I want craftsmanship and reliability and something I can hand down to my sons some day.

Thanks for the advice.
 
Get a Class III weapon for HD if you want, but a shotgun is probably a better choice. And,there's so much else we can do with shotguns. Multiple use means lots of practice disguised as fun means proficiency and effectiveness.

And, in the event that one has to use a HD tool, a shotgun is slightly more PC than a full auto. Since most folks these days know as little about real guns and real shooting as a clam does calculus,this might just save your liberty, pension and house.

The Big Four pumps are a good place to start, indeed they're a great choice for a first/only shotgun. The Combos with one long barrel for clays and birds and a short one for slugs and HD/CD are a lot of gun for the money. My choice is the 870.

Among the autos, there's lots of fans of the Remington 1100, various Beretta and Benell autos, the Winchester X-2 and it's twin Browning.

I suggest hanging out at the range and trying out different shotguns until one just feels right.
 
Thanks for the advice Dave!

After some additional reading, it seems the Remington 870 is a highly recommended shotgun on this board! Which model would you recommend or are they all winners? I'm looking at the express, the wingmaster or the marine magnum (it rains all the time here in Oregon!).

Thanks again.
 
They're all winners. The MM may be slightly more rust resistant, but the 1950 produced HD 870 upstairs has seen lots of goose/duck blinds,salt marshes, hot ranges, and my sweaty paws in the 40 some years it's been mine. Zero rust. Good PM and post use cleaning's the key.

Lots of us like the older ones better. QC has seriously slipped in recent years in Ilion, and some newer changes like the locking safety and the dimpled mag tube do not sit well with us irascible old 870 fans. These are fixable, but one shouldn't have to.

Also,an OOB 870 is an awesome close range weapon, but for those of us who like bellsnwhistles, there's more aftermarket stuff around for the 870 than all other shotguns combined. At this point in time, one could start with a stripped 870 receiver, bolt and action bars, and put together a decent shotgun using no other Remington products.

Like the 1911 GM, accessories and mods exist to fll any need or want.

HTH....
 
OK, I’ll bite.

I bought my first shotgun a couple months ago (870 Express). I had always wanted a shotgun and thought it would be good to have around for HD. Originally I was planning on getting an 18†barrel for HD and using the 28†for target shooting and hopefully trying out trap. I’m still getting use to the gun; you may recall my “Always off to the Left†post. I’m still working on that, my last trip to the range was on a weekend and the Turkey hunters were kinda lined up at the only two lanes available for patterning shot. I’ll report back on that when I have results.

So here are some of my questions and things on my mind.

I’m now thinking I’m better off just purchasing a second gun for HD and leaving my 28†870 alone. I only paid $239 for it and the money I would spend on an additional barrel and mag extension alone is approaching the $200 range. I’d like to have Ghost Ring sights for HD and not sure that is really an option with just one gun as the 28†barrel would still have the bead sight. I like the Mossberg 500, the Persuader with 18.5†barrel, GR sights and parkerized finish. The only thing I would really have to add is a light. I also like the idea of trying out a different make of shotgun. With that said I’m also thinking that I’m better off with another 870 since I will be shooting that more often. It doesn’t seem like a good idea to use a different type of gun for HD than what you normally shoot with, at least for shotgun newbie like myself. I guess I’m leaning towards the 7 shot, synthetic stock 18†barrel 870. I would probably just have to pay someone to install GR sights. Are the GR sights really an advantage at 10 yards and under? That is max distance inside my home.

About lights. Any comments on Surefire forends, versus Insight/Streamlight style? What about the less expensive lights from TacStar? Are these OK if you don’t do a lot of shooting with them installed or better off saving up for one of the others? As far as the pressure switch goes for any of these lights, are they easily removable? I believe the TacStar uses Velcro, what about others?

I’m trying to decide the best way to try out Trap shooting at my local DNR range. It looks like fun and a good way to practice. The problem is I don’t really have anyone to try this with. The range is really pretty nice. I just don’t know enough about it to feel comfortable trying it out on my own. They offer “training†at like $125 an hour, maybe I will have to cough up some cash to get started but that just seemed a little pricey to me.

These are just some thoughts that come to mind right now. I know I rambled a bit, but hey you asked :) . I could probably post everyday with a new question that has popped into my head, but I wouldn’t feel right about that. I’m definitely one of the ones doing a lot of the viewing/learning from other posts here.

One final note is that I’ll continue keeping my .357 Magnum nearby for HD until I get my shotgun skills up to par.

Thanks!
 
El Tejon's query first. The answer is not long at all. Get some rest. See how easy that was?

And now, Ringer's....

First, it's often nearly as cheap(expensive) to buy a used 870 as to buy a new barrel.But, finding one with the barrel one wants may be difficult. If a decent 870 with a short barrel turned up at a decent price, I'd snap it up on GPs. You may want to check with local shops though, oft there's used 18" riot barrels at decent prices.

Second, pure HD guns really do not benefit much from GR sights. My two "Serious" 870s have them because I hunt with them. Longer range slug work is easier with those sights. Inside the house or up to 25 yards, they really do not add to speed or accuracy.

Third, the 500 is a decent shotgun, but we do better,IMO, sticking to one brand. Picking up another make means it takes longer to figure out where the safety and slide release are, etc. In high stress, short time frame crises, this can be fatal to the wrong people.

Fourth, as for lights, others can help you out more than I. Still looking for a good one that doesn't cost more than an 870.

Fifth, some trapshooters dislike shooting with rookies, others do not, and some actually like seeing folks get started right. Ask some to help walk you through your first round. Betcha they will.

Sixth, good training is essential, a fecally cognizant instructor can take decades off the learning curve. For $125 an hour I'd want sex, too, but it may be worth it.

Remember that not everyone that shoots well can instruct,and a fancy shooting vest, an AA classification, and straight patches do not a teacher make. Nor do black BDUs and a military highntight.

HTH, now to rest these tired fingers and get more coffee....
 
My turn to toss in a question:

The safety on my Mossberg 590A1 is sticking. It's about 3 times more difficult to change settings in either direction than it was when I got it a couple months ago. I've only taken it out to play twice since I bought it. Standard maintenance, lube and cleaning performed per the manual. What can I do to fix this? And while I'm fixing it, is there a better aftermarket replacement for the safety switch?

vertigo7
 
Hi Dave...A couple questions....First, Would you describe your personal favorite 870's? What have you done with them? Secondly. I have a Wilson/ST Standard 870 and a 870P. I ordered the Wilson with the Short stock...It's a little too short and the standard wood stock on the 870P is just slightly too long. Both are managable but I'm amazed at the difference that 1" makes....Which would you choose if your only options were too short or too long? I'm asking because I'd like to buy another 870..(I have the fever!) and I'm torn between the two. Lastly, do you build shotguns for people? If so, how about some contact information.....Thanks, Zebulon
 
Vertigo, I'm no smith, but try stripping everything down and see if there's something impeding movement inside the receiver. Grunge buildup usually takes longer than two sessions, but who knows?

Is it under warranty?

Zebulon, I'm still no smith(G). My personal favorites include Frankenstein, the one I built from parts. However, your question seems to be more geared towards "Serious" shotguns. So....

I put both of my "Serious" 870s together as good defensive shotguns and slug shooters for deer hunting. One has the original 30" Full barrel cut to 18" and a little, Lyman peep sight with ramped front sight, a two shot magazine extension and a long forcing cone. Trigger's under 4 lbs, and this one came like that. Owned it since Ike was president. This one has a 6 shot Side Saddle cut to 5 to clear the peep base.

The other I put together in the late 80s or very early 90s. The receiver started out on an Arlington Va Cruiser gun.I bought it to replace the earlier one for hunting, deciding it should serve simply as a dedicated homeowner's insurance tool. This one has a 3 shot extension, 20" barrel, Williams peep sight, long cone, and it took a smith and $40 or so to get a sub 4 lb pull. No S/S on this one, as a hunting tool it gets toted lots. Weight on this runs close to 9 lbs, the other half a lb more.

Both have black painted wood, sling studs, and good pads. Neither has a light yet. Both are quite smooth, and have an enviable record of performance.

Neither is state of the art, but good functional pieces that can serve my family for decades.

I'm no smith, but most of the mods and addons done on these do not need a smith. Exceptions were the cones, one trigger job and the D&T for the peeps.

IOW, if you can cross the street on the green light and use a screwdriver, you can do as well. I'm a klutz with most tools.

As for stocks....

My 870TB Trap has a LOP of very close to 15". I'm on the larger side, and find the standard stocks on my "Serious" guns a hair on the short side. That's all to the good. Resetting the position of the front hand on the forearm can compensate for a short stock. Getting a too long stock in position can take too long.

The 20 Gauge YE here for the kids has a Youth stock of about 13" LOP. I do not shoot my best with it, but I could pass a police qualifier with it. The 14" stocks come closer than any other length for GP use for me, and I could operate them under heavy winter clothing or armor. Have, in fact.

Hogue's overbuilt synthetic stocks come with a Cadet variant that's getting good reviews, but before that try...

Use a thick piece of old leather strap as a spacer. Add 1/4" to the short stock, replace pad, and try it out. Pachmyer Decellerators are outstanding, affordable and come in thicknesses from 3/4-1 1/4". Get the right one after figuring what works both for you and go aheadon.

If I were putting together another "Serious" 870 on a limited budget, I'd....

Get a beater police turnin or other short 870 of 38-42" long.

Get the stock fitting and the trigger under a 4 lb clean pull. For "Serious" use, if you can mount the thing easily under stress and your thumb doesn't bump your schnozz under recoil, it's close enough to work with.

Add studs for a sling.

Add a two shot extension. For most folks this seems the best compromise between capacity and front end weight.

Work polish it until smooth by BA/UU/R. After some time, I'd add anything that would aid accomplishing the mission, from a long cone to a light to upgraded sights. Add one thing at a time(If at all!) and shoot it in generously before making other changes.

If loaded with money, add a Vang barrel or similar.

FWIW, most of the shotgun cognizant professionals I've known have "Serious" shotguns setup along these lines. The bellsnwhistles and Ninja/Tac stuff are relatively scarce...

HTH, sing out if I missed anything.
 
Dave...

Lemme warn ya now, I ain't one 'a' these goshdang whippersnappers myself, consarn it, but I got a question anyway, since I don't see it elsewhere in this thread. You a fan of the Speedfeed stocks that hold the two extra rounds on each side? They seem to be a good fit for me, though I won't spring an extra $75-$100 for the gizmo. One of my HD pumps is so equipped. There ever been any breakage/malfunction issues with the Speedfeed?
 
The Speedfeed stocks themselves seem well made, and oddly enough some are going on tweaked target shotguns.

The ammo storage thingies tend to lose rounds under recoil, according to common report. Otherwise, no bad input.

HTH...
 
Me, me ,me, oh pick me!!!!

I've got an easy question. Even tho' you're an 870 kinda guy, who do you think makes a good aftermarket stock for a mossy 500? The wife has the PG thing and she doesn't seem to mind the recoil so much, but she cain't hit nothing. I'd like to have a full non-folding stock with a PG. And have you tried any pumps with the PG slide. I don't know what purpose it serves, but it looks cool.
 
I have a "classic" Western Field 550AL 12ga inherited from my grandfather. It came with a 28" vent-rib barrel and three win-choke tubes in imp cyl, modified and full choke. It must have been an upscale model. It has some real cheesy engraving on the reciever and some wannabe imitation bolt jeweling. I have only shot clay once with it. I didn't do too bad for a novice. All those years shooting movers at IPSC matches mean't going to bigger moving targets at a longer distance wasn't much of a stretch. Gave my friend and his 11-87 a run for his money. Seems to be pretty accurate in either mod or improved chokes. Since it is in reality a Mossberg 500 it is well built and real solid. I like the tang safety also.

Took it out last week and put some slugs through it just for drill. Shoots slugs real good, 5" groups @50yds offhand with only a bead sight. Good enough for deer hunting if I so choose. Shoots good 00 buck patterns as well. Currently looking for a 20-22" vent rib barrel to use the gun for a bumming-around-rifle. Gun Parts has some 18.5" barrels in stock. Probably go that route as a stop gap until I can find a short(20-22") barrel with choke tubes.

Right now I need a decent sighting system that isn't too expensive that clamps on to the rib for better accuracy with slugs. I also need a new recoil pad. The one that is on it now is old and hard and doesn't work real well. I put about 25 rounds of slugs and 25 rounds of buckshot through it last week. But I paid for it later. The pad has got to go. Until I find a range to shoot clays at, most of my shooting is with slugs. There is something about putting 3/4" holes in things that is just plain cool!

Enough rambling

Thanks
ZM
 
A stance and grip question, do you do a push-pull with the shotgun, i.e. pull in with both paws and push out with shoulder?
 
Skunk

I'm not Dave, he is the smart fella around here...

Gun fit I've harped about before. My "positioning" is same, regardless of what I'm shotgunning. I focus on target, I push out , then into "pocket". Gun comes to me, I don't "go to the gun". The moment the SG slides into pocket, I'm ready to fire that very instant.

My eyes, positioning, swing...everything is going on, while the gun gets mounted into pocket. Game, clays, steel , 00 or slugs...same deal.

Curious what Dave, Correia , others do myself. Curious if anyone else has toe and heel along with inside of pad contoured ( not able to hang up). I use Deacelorators (sp?) , so gun won't slip, not worried about recoil , I shot many K's upon K's of rds without one...did smooth butt so nothing hung up.
 
I've handled and shot a little with PG slides, John. I'm not impressed. The added bulk could be disadvantageous in CQ. And maybe I'm spoiled by the fine forearms on 870s. Darn near all of them are easy to hang on to.

As for PG Full stocks on Mossies, the safety location kinda precludes these.

Mrs Cruffler might like that Hogue overbuilt in the shorter length. Midway has these also on sale,$40-50. Just checked the Cabela's catalog I keep in the bathroom(old family tradition), they have it a little cheaper...

Zeke,Pachmyer has a Decellerator model precut for 500s. This should come close to perfect for you though some grinding may be needed to even it up. Other good ones include KickEez and the new Limbsaver.

Williams makes a set of open sights that mount on a vent rib. Slugs do destory things nicely, but find a trap and skeet range. Those fast doubles will make you learn your moves like you won't believe.

Skunk, my mount varies a little with the shotgun and mission. For fast stuff, I tend to roll my shotgun into the pad as it's coming up and back. For trap, the firing hand pulls the shotgun back into my shoulder since I do not want to pump that valuable empty hull onto the mud and dirt and my shoulder stays put. For repeat shots, the forward hand does the pulling. But try out different stuff and find out what works for you and when.

73, not smart, just had the time to get some stuff pounded into my thick, peasant skull.

I have recontoured the toes of many pads and also done a few along the inside edge to better fit the pocket. The toe thing is practically universal in improving comfort. The inside depends on build and style, IMO. Some SC dedicated pads now have the heel rounded off a bit for faster mounting, I may try this next time I break out the belt sander to round the toe on a new pad. A trap style pad seems to work best for my present style of shooting regardless of discipline, but all have their toes rounded to better fit my barreled chest.
 
OK, here we go.

1) When did o/u shotguns really come into vogue? All the 'classics' seem to be sxs.

2) What are the advantages/disadvantages of sxs vs. o/u for upland hunting?

3) Why does adding 'savage' to 'fox' = $250 less?
 
Dave,

Just wanted to give a public thanks for all your help on this forum. Also to all the others that give excellent advice. This is what makes it fun and informative.

A big thank you.

Steve
 
They tell me the O/U is the older design, but they didn't take off in the US until JM Browning introduced the Superposed, made in Belgium. These were sold at decent prices and a generation of WWI vets and shotgunners used to the single sighting plane of a repeating shotgun went for them like wolves after meat. If I had to give a date, post WWII for the changeover.

Some of the cognoscienti like Brister say the SXS works better on game that's unpredictable, and the vertical double better where the target flight can be anticipated and is more precise. I note that Brister was a hotshot on the Live Pigeon circuit in Texas and Mexico, a high payoff gamer for the best shooters. When the money was on the line, Brister used a Perazzi O/U.

SxS use has seen a renaissance in the last 20 years of so. Many of these are GREAT hunting guns, and those imported from the UK that have price tags more than a new P/U 4X4, with big engine,big tires and tow package appeal to the art lover within us and to those who like to show off their discretionary income.

Ansley Fox was a terrific firearms designer but a poor businessman. After his company went under, Savage bought it out and used the name on a cheaper double.

REAL Foxes are Forever Guns, built to last generations. Savage Foxes are utilitarian doubles, good enough but sans the master's touch and ken.

Steve, you're very welcome. I'm glad I can help...
 
Dave....Thanks so much for all the tips....I'm a little embarrassed that a shotgun guy of your stature finds it unneccessary to spend stupid amounts of money to get into the game...I'm embarrassed that is, that I probably overspent when it was'nt needed. Do you teach? If so, where can I get more information? Ive spent some time reading your comments wherever I can find them, and needless to say, you have a huge fanbase...Thanks for taking the time to invite us all in......Zebulon....BTW, what is...BA/UU/R?
 
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