U.S. Pastor Gets 3+ Years for 20rds in Russia

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The russian customs declerations form does have a box to check if you are carrying ammo. It's box 3.2 :what:

www.rlus.co.uk/declaration.pdf

www.russian-business-visa.com/declaration.pdf

Assuming the pastor had the same form i googled he should have declaired it. Each time I have entered a country I have recieved a copy of that country's equivilent form in english. Filling it out truthfully and completly is a priority of mine to avoid these problems.

I do hope for the individual involved here he wins an appeal or gets some other type of relief. I have a hard time seeing who the victim of his crime is.
 
It is illegal to lie under oath, whether or not you're a lawyer.
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I am very sure that the jury training I got emphasized that neither the prosecutor or the defense attorney is under oath.

Are you sure that they are are under oath?

Mike
 
For the side argument, I believe that it is not illegal for the lawyer to lie.

I do think as an officer of the court, he may be subject to disbarrment and revocation of his license to practice law.
 
An attorney cannot knowingly lie in court. He is an officer of the court and as such, is obliged to tell the truth. If his client confesses to committing a crime, the attorney is obliged to advise him to confess to the court and remove himself. For an attorney to knowingly defend someone who has confessed to him, to knowingly lie in court, he can be disbarred and imprisoned.
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I have found at least one citation that conflicts with what I think you're telling me. If I read the following correctly, a defense attorney is not under oath, and is not obligated to advise his client to confess to the court on hearing a client confession of guilt, and is not obligated to "remove himself" on hearing a client confession of guilt.

It looks like the attorney is not supposed to suborn perjury, but that is the limit of his obligation to be truthful.

In this vein, ethical criminal defense attorneys won't let a defendant testify to deny her guilt once she has told the attorney she is guilty. The attorney, who is not under oath, may still suggest to a jury that there is a reasonable doubt of guilt (and, therefore his client is not guilty). But if the defendant has already admitted her guilt to the lawyer, the lawyer will not let her take the stand and deny her guilt.

To do so would be a crime called suborning perjury, which is, in essence, encouraging perjury. Like with perjury itself, this rule seems to be frequently violated, and the offenders are rarely pursued.
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http://www.njlawnet.com/njlawreview/testifyingincourt.html

Do you have citations that support your view?
 
This little side bar (*rimshot*) is interesting, if off topic.
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Me, too, It appears, with some more reading, that if a lawyer has factual knowledge that his client committed perjury, he is obligated to take certain actions - trying to persuade his client to tell the truth, removing himself, etc.

It's also clear that the ABA frowns on lawyers lying "to the tribunal", which I guess means their actions in court.

But it looks like violating these guidelines would at most be a violation of ethics, and would at worst result in disciplinary action by the Bar - but are not illegal.

Do any lawyers on THR know if there are similar regulations that would prevent a lawyer from lying to media?

Mike
 
Do any lawyers on THR know if there are similar regulations that would prevent a lawyer from lying to media
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Hmm...

Well if there were, aren't most politicians lawyers?
 
Guys, I'd really like to keep this thread open so we can post news of the appeal or resolution. The lawyer diversion could get it locked.
 
Guys, I'd really like to keep this thread open so we can post news of the appeal or resolution. The lawyer diversion could get it locked.
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OK, I'll stop discussing that aspect.

Back on topic.

The russian customs declerations form does have a box to check if you are carrying ammo. It's box 3.2
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It looks crystal clear, and it's in English. It's the first check box, and not in difficult legalese. It's getting pretty hard for me to buy into the "I didn't know I had to declare ammo" argument. It's not like the weapons/ammo declaration is on page 13 in fine print.

By the way, when I referred to the pastor as an "airhead", I did not mean to eviscerate him. I have had contact with very spiritual people, and some of them don't seem to have much common sense, or to be too tied to this world. I always expected that such people were focused on another world.

Let's hope he gets released quickly.

Mike
 
Sad result. We cannot take for granted the laws in other countries when we cannot take for granted our laws in the US.

He should have checked.

Now, the smuggling charge was overboard. If justice is blind here how about in Russia?

:(
 
If you do 33 mph in a 30mph zone, do you think you should be charged with reckless endangerment?
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Not a valid comparison. The better one is if you have a small amount of cocaine or a large amount of cocaine in your luggage. In both cases you would be arrested and charged. Same deal here.
 
No, cocaine is illegal, period. Ammo is not illegal. It can be legally bought in Russia. There is no legal reason to smuggle ammo into Russia when it can be had legally in Russia. Cocaine cannot be legally bought in Russia, and so any amount, large or small, would have to be smuggled in.

Ash
 
Not a valid comparison. The better one is if you have a small amount of cocaine or a large amount of cocaine in your luggage. In both cases you would be arrested and charged. Same deal here.
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Ah, so bullets intended for hunting are just like illicit drugs.

I think you have the false analogy. With cocaine, there is only an illicit purpose. With the bullets, there are legal and illegal uses.

Unless, of course, you consider all guns to be bad and all gun owners to be killers.
 
The analogy is not false. The law state that ammo (like all other goods) must be DECLARED AT CUSTOMS, failure to declare results in criminal prosecution. That is true in any country. You can complain about Russia till the second coming, that will not change the fact that failure to DECLARE GOODS AT CUSTOMS results in prosecution (for smuggling) world wide. As such the lesson from all of this is : DECLARE GOODS AT CUSTOMS!!!

I find it very strange that the above lesson is not being learned, and instead we have conspiracy theories and various other irrational ideas being presented. Once again the US sentences for smuggling ammo are more sever then the Russian ones!!!
 
Gene, it is false because you cannot legally bring cocaine in no matter what. I am not in any conspiracy theory, merely observing the treatment harsh. I would feel the same way if it were a Russian being sentenced to 3 years in America for bringing in a box of Wolf ammo.

Try not to be obtuse. I would think the pastor should get time for trying to bring in undeclared cocaine. I would think a Russian would get time for bringing in undeclared cocaine into the US.

Or, perhaps, you think a fellow should get 3 years for smuggling a sausage? A string puppet? A jar of marmalade? A nesting box? Some pork skins? A pair of expensive socks? A transistor radio?

Ash
 
Russian laws could be very weird, and our legal system could be as sicking as it gets, but the truth is that pastor DID broke the laws out of sheer stupidity, and got what he deserved.
He must thank god that he didn't tried to bring some crack to his fella somewhere in Saudi Arabia, where he probably would be beheaded for drug smuggling...
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So bringing 20 rounds in is equal to smuggling crack in your opinion? Face it max, the punishment is way out of line for the crime. Some time in jail and a swift kick back stateside would have been more appropriate, and would have accomplished the desired result. This is just a grasping, venal dictatorship trying what it can to punish a Protestant Yankee dog.
 
My opinion is irrelevant. what is relevant is the letter of the law. The sentence for smuggling ammo into Russia is 3 to 7, the pastor got 3 (or the minimum). That is in accordance with Russian law. What more do you want to know?

Us liking or disliking the law does not change a thing. This story should be a heads up to all of us. If traveling DECLARE YOUR AMMO AT CUSTOMS!!!

Think of this in terms of US law. If you get pulled over in a state that does not allow NFA items, with a legal class 3 in your car. You will be prosecuted! If you travel out of state with your legal calss 3 without filing appropriate paperwork with the feds, you will be prosecuted. If you build an illegal class3 you will be prosecuted!. Does me stating the self evident truth above mean that I like the NFA laws?

The same goes for Russian law, like it or not it is what it is. The pastor got off lightly and should consider himself lucky. If the prosecutor wanted (or was pressured) , he could have gotten the pastor a very long sentence for international terrorism. Again I do not like the above, but that is the objective reality of life. A very important lesson I learned in Russia is that in order to stay healthy wealthy and out of prison, you should never give the cops a reason to arrest you. Bringing in UNDECLARED AMMO is a very good way to end up in prison (or dead) in just about any part of the world.
 
The same goes for Russian law, like it or not it is what it is. The pastor got off lightly and should consider himself lucky. If the prosecutor wanted (or was pressured) , he could have gotten the pastor a very long sentence for international terrorism. Again I do not like the above, but that is the objective reality of life. A very important lesson I learned in Russia is that in order to stay healthy wealthy and out of prison, you should never give the cops a reason to arrest you. Bringing in UNDECLARED AMMO is a very good way to end up in prison (or dead) in just about any part of the world.
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No he didn't. Simply because you refuse to see that they charged him with a crime he did not commit when they could have charged him with a lesser crime DOES NOT MEAN HE GOT OFF EASY.

If you shoot someone in your home accidentally and get arrested for murder and only get 10 years for murder, did you get off easily?

Or should you have been prosecuted for manslaughter?
 
Simply because you refuse to see that they charged him with a crime he did not commit when they could have charged him with a lesser crime DOES NOT MEAN HE GOT OFF EASY.
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Did he bring undeclared ammo into Russia? Yes or no?

I have nothing against the guy and even have some compassion for him. But the reality is that bringing undeclared ammo into foreign countries is very dangerous. That is a fact!!!

Given that Russia is fighting an insurgency and .300 Win Mag can be considered a sniper round, the pastor could have been prosecuted for aiding terrorists. He was not, as such I see the claims of religious or ethnic prosecution unfounded.

If I bring pot back from Amsterdam I will get prosecuted in the US. No excuse I make will prevent that prosecution. Even if I accidentally forget to remove the perfectly legal (In Amsterdam) pot from my pocket, I will still get prosecuted in the USA. That is how the legal system works, ignorance is not an excuse.

Good reading
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Damage-Done-Twelve-Bangkok-Prison/dp/184018275X
 
Gene_WI, I don't think you're comprehending what's being said. Otherwise, why keep repeating yourself?

We all get that he should have declared the ammo to Russian customs. That's not the issue. We all get the Russian penalty for smuggling. That's not the issue. We all understand the penalties for violating NFA Class 3 rules. That's not the issue. We all get that when you break the law, there is a penalty to pay. That's not the issue!

The issue is the disparity between what was done and the 'crime' of which he was convicted. Illegal posession, a much lesser crime, was an option the judge had and, for some reason, chose a much more serious conviction instead.

In the real world, there are degrees of conviction and punishment that are meted out depending on circumstance and intent. Manslaughter vs. 1st Degree murder is a great example.

Finally, defending the Russian judicial system as though it merited any measure of respect in the first place is comical at best.
Regardless, insinuating the Russians can't or shouldn't discriminate between a pastor taking one box of hunting bullets to a friend, and an extremist sneaking crates of ammo to his terrorist friends is downright ridiculous.
 
Gene, Ammo is perfectly legal in the US and Russia. Pot is not perfectly legal in the US or Russia.

We both know he was not smuggling ammo to terrorists. 3 years in a Russian prison is harsh.

Ash
 
Three years is harsh, life is harsh.

I will end this discussion as it is pointless. I doubt he will do any time at all.

P.S. I dislike the Russian legal system, that is why I am a US citizen and live here. I am not defending them in any way.
 
Ammo is perfectly legal in the US and Russia
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Not entrily true. Somme ammo is legal. Possession of military ammo in Russia is a very serious offense. .50 BMG will get you time in CA eTc...
 
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