Uberti 1858 Remmi question

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craneman

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O.K. so now I am confused. I have an 1858 Uberti that I have fired using lead balls that are .451" dia. I have experienced a tiny bit of creep from the percussion. No problem, next time I will use .454" dia.

BUT I want to also install a an R&D conversion cyl. Midway USA has them but now they call them Howell conversion cyl. for .45 Colt. When I was price shopping I found R&D's at Buffalo arms for a small bit less, but they say they are .44 Colt followed by a small explanation about "heeled bullets":uhoh:. Not very informative. They also recommend cowboy ammo that is .44 Colt. I am pretty sure mine is a .45 cal. I have used some good precision measuring devices and the cyl. is .450" dia, and the bore of the barrel is .451" to the large section and .446" to the top of the rifling lands.

So what gives? Who is right? Using my measurements the gun should be fired using .45 caliber amunition. I tried finding manufacturer info from R&D and Howells, but I can't find any web site for either of them. Has anyone run into this, or am I overthinking things. Any help at all from the experts here would be great. Thanks
 
It would seem that since the diameter of the .44 Colt bullets are listed as being .443 that they would need to be bumped up during firing to engage the rifling. That could be detrimental to better accuracy and performance. The cartridge history indicates that it's obsolete and it may require handloading from a smaller bullet line up which is another factor against selecting it. The .44 Colt round probably appeals much more to the traditionalist and just isn't as popular as the .45 LC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Colt
 
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This is what I believe is correct for my Uberti 1858:

Caliber: .44"
Bore Diameter: .440"
Groove Diameter: .446"
Chamber Diameter: .450"
Load: .454" round lead ball, 22 grains FFFg typical
Rifling: 7 Groove, Right-hand 1:32"
Barrel Length: 8"
Overall Length: 13 3/4"
Weight: 2 3/4 lbs

So at a bore diameter of .440 (distance between lands) this tells me a .452 45 Colt will be riding the lands with .006 cuts on either side of the bullet (.452-.440 divided by two). Sounds about right to me. In other words, I think you want 45 Colt not 44 Colt.

BTW, R&D Gun Shop and Howell Old West Conversions is the same company. The original name of the company was R&D before it got changed to Howell.
 
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A .450 ball in a .460 groove is too small. The ball should be between .001 and .002 larger than the groove diameter, not the land diameter.
 
Hi Clem; I have a 1858 Remington new Army, 44 C&P made by Uberti and sold by Lyman. The manual on this revolver says use a .451 ball. I just miked mine out and everything is the same as yours, except the chamber you load the powder and RB into, it measures .447.
You state you use a .454 ball. A .451 RB minus a .447 chamber, divided by two equals .002, that gives me a shaved off ring of .002. I understand this is acceptable. So should I use the box of .451 RBs I have, or melt em down and cast some .454s?
Thanks
OB
 
OB One,

Oddly enough, my manual (Cimarron/Uberti) says to use a .454 ball. If you have ball creep then I'd suggest you move up to .454. Ball creep usually exhibits itself best at higher loads. If you don't see any ball creep AND you can see the shaved ring when loading you should be good to go.

BTW, beware of mic measurements made directly to the firearm. Typically, the most accurate way is to slug it out otherwise there could be a little error due to curvature or a 7 groove barrel can make it challenging. May "the force" be with you!

p.s. The important thing is that the cylinders are sealed (chain fire)...thus the shaved ring. And, as mykeal points out, the ball should slug up (obturate) inside the barrel as it travels to prevent hot gas from blowing by the ball.
 
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Thanks for the info guys. I have looked repeatedly at the Buffalo Arms site and I cannot fiind an R&D for an Uberti 1858 in .45 Colt, only .44 Colt. I thought possibly a typo, but they recommend .44 colt cowboy ammo, and they have it in stock along with .44 Colt loading dies. So I tend to believe that it does exist, and there is a use for it. Thier explanation is short and not very informative, "use .44 cal. Heeled bullet to compensate for bore size". Fairly convincing that it is not a typo. That doesn't make sense to me. If the gun from Uberti is designded to shoot .45 cal. why manufacture a different cylinder and then require a special bullet to use it? Midway only have .45 Colt listed for the Uberti 1858. Maybe thier ad is a typo. Niether list a cyl. for both calibers. The stamping on my barrel also says .44 cal., but it measures and shoots well at.45 cal.:banghead:

I just want a conversion cyl thay works and is safe to use. I have .45 colt dies for rolling my own. I don't know that I trust calling them (midway, buffalo arms) either, does the person on the other end REALLY know of what they speak. I just want to know that what I order will work for what I have. I figured that the original manufacture would be the best place to find good info on the product, but I have had NO luck finding ANY info on R&D or Howells (I do understand they are the same place) for contact info.:banghead:
 
Have you considered a Kirst Converter instead of a R&D/Howell Converter? Personally, I like the R&D better than the Kirst for my Ruger Old Army thus I went with R&D. However, that link above should give you the warm fuzzies that your Uberti 1858 is in fact capable of shooting 45 Colt as is.
 
Remington

The Uberti cap & ball cylinders shoot better with 454 balls, and I have a few that are even loose on those, and I have to use 457 balls.

Piettas are OK with 451 balls, usually.

A 44 Colt conversion cylinder must use either a heeled bullet or a hollow base bullet to work in the Uberti bore. I'm not sure why the seller only has only 44 Colt cylinders. Most common by R&D (Howell) available from Taylors and others chamber the 45Colt and will also chamber 45 S&W (Schofield) and 45 Special.

Modern 44 Colt loadings use the 429 bullet and will not work in the Uberti bore unless they have a hollow base, which, unless you hand load, is unlikely.

Some shooters have relined or rebarrelled to 429 bore to shoot 44 Russian or modern 44 Colt.

R&D recently changed its name, which can cause some confusion.
 
I read the Buffalo Arms site's descriptions of the .44 R&D conversion cylinder and am also confused by it. I suppose I was fortunate that I didn't visit that site before I bought my R&D for my 1858. I simply bought the .45LC cylinder from Midway (who doesn't offer a .44 cylinder) and it works perfectly. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

BTW, I also use .454 balls in that gun when shooting BP. Works fine.

EDIT: Here's a quote from "Blue Book of Modern Balck Powder Values" by Dennis Adler that may help demystify the .44 cylinder question:

"Kirst's .44 cylinder loads six, so there is no problem with SASS, except that a .44 slug is .429 inches, whereas the barrels on .44 cap-and-ball revolvers measure .450, (thus the reason a .45 ACP is a better choice). A .44 caliber lead bullet barely touches the rifling and tends to tumble, which greatly effects accuracy beyond 50 feet.{Unless a "hollow base" or "heeled bullet is used"} (The original .44 Colt and .38 Colt slugs used what is known as a "heeled" bullet, which had a smaller base to fit the case, but a larger bullet diameter to engage the rifling. The first Colt .44 cartridges were made in 1871 and remained in production until 1939. The .38 Colt cartridge was produced from 1874 to 1900.)"

In other words, to use a .44 conversion cylinder, you have to be a dedicated hardcore reloader because you won't find factory ammo for it. Go with the 45 LC and worry not.
 
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Thanks Wobble, thats what I needed. Some one who has one and uses it with the same brand firearm that I own. Just makes me feel better about ordering it. I knew it used .45 cal but that darn BA web site description had me scratchin my head and second guessing what I thought I knew. I appriciate all the help advice and time spent helping me. I will post with the range results when I get the cylinder and load up some brass for it.
 
Contact the people at Uberti. They have a "contact" space on their website. Given the shortage of .45LC ammo, I emailed Uberti (I have the 1858 New Army .45LC Conversion) and asked if .45ACP could be used. I pretty much knew the answer, but as they do make pistols FOR .45ACP ammo I figured what the heck. They responded in about 24 hours and were very helpful. I even emailed once or twice more to the same guy. So give it a try.
 
I would suggest getting a converter cylinder that shoots 45 colt, not 44 colt.
I got the 44 colt R&D cylinder because it said something like "for the 44 caliber 1858 remington", so naturally I thought that's what I ought to get. Now I wish I could return it.

It seems to me the only reason they even make the 44 colt cylinder for the 1858 that has 45 cal. rifling is for a feeling of being more historically accurate.

I hope that's helpful.
 
The .45 Colt conversion cylinders have angled chambers because there isn't enough space to chamber the big .45 Colt cartridge straight through. This is not particularly condusive to fine accuracy but may be OK for cowboy action shooting. The .44 Colt cylinders are historically correct as this was the way orgininal cap & ball pistols were converted when cartridges became available. The .44 Colt is slightly smaller in diameter then the .45 Colt but it shoots a "heeled" bullet that is about .440 on the "heel" and .454 diameter above. Sort of like the modern .22 long rifle cartridge. The rebated heel fits down inside the case. The top half of the bullet diameter is the same diameter as the cartridge case and "outside lubricated." While .44 Colt cartridges are available from specialty suppliers, you are probably going to have to cast your own slugs and handload if you shoot any amount.
 
When you say "ball creep", are you referring to the balls coming forward in the cylinder to the point the cylinder will not turn??

If that's the case, I'm not sure what gives. I've got a 1860 Pietta that does it with 454s bad, I'm not talking about while shooting, I'm talking about somehow while sitting loaded the things come forward, and I'm cutting lead when I seat the balls....

My Pietta 1858 Remington somehow or the other is blowing caps clear off and putting holes in the ones that I've got cap keepers on... I'm using a 24gr load of FFFG.
 
45 cal

GeoffC
Ball creep can be caused by a burred or restricted chamber mouth, I had two Ruger Old Armies that way, after seating a ball, even cutting a ring, the ball would roll out of the cylinder, since the chamber just back of the mouth was larger than the opening.....

Sent them back to Ruger expecting to get back new cylinders, but got back the same, roughly reamed at the mouth, which I could have done myself, but I wouldn't have left them rough.

Perhaps with a scraper you might try relieving the mouth of the chambers, if you find the chamber just behind to be larger, that will result in loose projectiles.

Considering the dimensions of the bore, the chambers should be larger, probably reamed to 452 or 453 to provide a ball larger by a few thousanths than the groove diameter, and the accuracy should improve. I haven't bought a 453 reamer yet, but intend to. The chamber only needs to be reamed as deep as the ball should seat, probably no more than 3/4 inch at most.
 
I got a box of 457s Friday, been trouble free

I kind of wonder why they even bother suggesting .451 balls....

If you dont know better, these are what most gun shops will push on you.

I can honestly say that I'm yet to see a gun that cuts a ring of lead with them.
 
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44 cap and ball

The majority of 44 cap and ball revolvers use .454 lead balls. Some people shoot the the .451's but I wouldn't recommend them unless the mfg. tells you to use .451 You mentioned you have some bullet creep with .451 - you do not want bullet creep.......you can end up with a discharge that does not have sufficient velocity, which can lodge a ball in the barrel........you don't want to shoot a firearm of any kind with a blocked barrel. The 454 ball should shave a ring of lead all the way around the ball when you seat it. This helps seal the ball and powder so you don't end up with flashover, (power ignition that sets off other cylinders that are not lined up with the barrel). A 44 cap and ball basically shoots a 45 caliber ball that is resized as it is seated against the powder. In addition to .454 balls you should seal the end of the cylinder with Crisco or any good bullet lube made for this purpose, (usually refered to as grease).
 
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