Ubiquitous .38spl 2" Snubby - But No Trust for 9mm 3" Barrel?

[ReadyontheRight]

The .38 Special is the ubiquitous carry gun, but I see posts saying that you lose too much velocity if you shoot a 9mm out of anything shorter than a 4" barrel. I have also seen this claim about .45acp.

Given the choice, I would choose something larger. But, given the choice in a dangerous situation, I would choose a Garand.

A 3” 9mm is nice and easy to carry. I find that the accuracy of both 2” .38 Special and 3” is acceptable – although the 2” DA revolver has a much better trigger – leading to better accuracy for me.

So what’s the deal? Does .38 Special retain that much more velocity out of a short barrel than a 9mm, or are both just “stick it in the gut” type of defense rounds out of short barrels?

I would rather keep this discussion to standard rounds, not "Plus P".

 

[zxcvbob]

I think it might have more to do with reliability in a "belly gun". If you shove an autoloader in someone's gut or fire it from a coat pocket, it is probably gonna jam.

 

[NG VI]

My 3.5" .40 is very accurate. Maybe not exactly the same as a 3" 9mm, but it has a nice trigger too.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Somebody needs to run and publish some actual chronograph data.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Somebody needs to run and publish some actual chronograph data.

Yeah - That's kind of what I was looking for. I have seen the drop in 3" vs. 4" 9mm on a thread, but never this specific comparison.

I don't have the brainpan capacity to understand, remember or apply chronograph data, I just want to remember "Yup" or "Nope" as to whether a gun and its round has enough power for my comfort.

I like them both. Just wondering why a short 9mm is often trashed for ineffectiveness and a short .38 special is not.

 

[chupacabrah]

I like them both

The way I look at it, shooting out of either one is still better than slapping someone

 

[tipoc]

This may be of some help...

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm vs 38 Special.htm

If you poke around there you may find some more info as well.

tipoc

 

[Regen]

Also you may want to look at the specifications on the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo for rounds specifically designed for 2" snubbies.

 

[9mmepiphany]

remember that the barrel measurement of a wheelgun is added to the lenght of the cylinder that holds the cartridge, while the barrel measurement of the semi-auto includes the chamber which houses the cartridge

 

[OregonJohnny]

Maybe some of it has to do with the fact that there are a few ammunition companies who market .38 special ammo specifically designed for use in 2" barrels. I haven't seen much or any specialty 9mm "short barrel" ammo. That doesn't mean it isn't out there. Also, and I'm not even beginning to claim I'm an expert on this, it may have something to do with case length, powder burn time, amount of powder, pressures, etc. Someone with a much better understanding of this might be able to shed some light.

For what it's worth, I shoot my 3" Springfield XD-40sc (.40 cal) very accurately. Better than some of my full size pistols. I don't know how effective the 155-grain Hornady TAP HP ammo is out of this length, but it is very reliable and accurate in my gun.

 

[Marvin KNox]

A compact 9mm is a little better performer than a compact .38 the way I see it. It's not much more so though. Proper bullet selection makes it almost a wash.

If you like autos, you go for the 9mm. If you like revolvers, you go for the .38

Everyone can have a piece of the pie!

I like revolvers. I go for the .38 and give myself the option of choosing .357 magnums when I want to. But that's just the way I roll.

 

[Pulse]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

for the lazy:

.38 special / 135gr Speer Gold Dot HP / barrel length -> ft/sec

5" -> 1101
4" -> 1027
3" -> 892
2" -> 756

9mm Luger / Speer 124 gr. Gold Dot Short Barrel / barrel length -> ft/sec

5" -> 1259
4" -> 1203
3" -> 1108
2" -> 1074

 

[C-grunt]

I have head that the 147 grain 9mms lose less velocity than the lighter rounds. I prefer the heavier rounds in all my guns, especially the shorter barreled ones. Heavier bullets promote more penetration.

I would think there is not much of a difference between a snubby with a 158 grn round at 800 fps and a small 9mm with a 147 grn round at 900 fps. What the 9mm has over it in velocity, the .38 makes up with extra weight.

 

[GRIZ22]

I don't have all the figures with me but I chrongraphed various loads from a G26 and G17. You're only losing 100 fps at most in the 26. 147 gr loads are all around 1000 fps whether they are fired in a G26, G17, or 16" carbine barrel.

Your results may vary.

 

[Shadan7]

Most of what we tested was +P ammo, and you can see for yourself in the link that Pulse posted, or from my sig.

One thing to keep in mind about our data - our measurements were from the breech face of the T/C Encore (the standard way to measure semi-autos). But with a revolver, the calculation for barrel length is from the forcing cone, not from the back of the cylinder. Meaning you should add the distance from the back of the cylinder to the forcing cone to the actual barrel length, and then look at *that* length in our data listing (i.e.: say a 642 has a cylinder a little over two inches - add that to the just under 2" barrel, and you should look at the 4" barrel entry in our data for a realistic comparison. Sorry I don't have the actual measurement - I'm out of town and and borrowing a computer right now, with no access to my own 642 to measure.) You can see the "real world" numbers using my 642, as well as my Rohrbaugh R9 - which gives very comparable readings for each gun, in the 900 fps range.

7

 

[AK103K]

The most blatant thing I see, is shootability of the smaller autos over the smaller revolvers. Using full power ammo, the choice is instantly easily made, mainly because of what happens when you pull the trigger, but especially when you look at the groups at longer ranges. The autos are much easier to shoot well with, and you can easily do it all day long, so practice is much more productive.

Add to that, I can get pretty much true 4" velocities out of the autos, with no loss due to cylinder gap and the short tube, and the fact that I get more rounds in the gun, is just icing on the cake. I'll take a little more power and a few more rounds any day.

 

[Bezoar]

i know ive seen it posted here on this site alot that put a 9mm round in an identical revolver, it will be weaker then a 38spcl.
No offense, but if you get the buffalo bore heavy duty ammo, your going to get most of the expansion from the 2" barrel as a 4" barrel would give. Thats a nice thing. However from what ive seen is that most of the 9mm expanding bullets need that velocity to open up and carry through tissue.

 

[NG VI]

Maybe if the 9mm was designed in 1985.

 

[sm]

ReadyontheRight,

Going on memory, as I am not sure where the data is:

Kel-Tec P-11
Standard Pressure 115 grain Winchester Silver Tip Hollowpoint was 1085 fps.
Of Interest is, the Winchester White Box 115 JHP chrono'd the same.
My Memory says 1085 was the average.

STHP was was more consistent that WWB.
Later, another newer box of WWB, of a different lot, averaged 1045.

Federal standard pressure 115 gr FMJ and 115 gr JHP, ran 1095 once averaged, and this Kel-Tec, really grouped that loading well.
These were the carry loads for this guns btw.

124 gr Standard Pressure is what I prefer, and carry.
For the life of me, I cannot find the data, nor recall it.


Personally, I prefer and carry Standard Pressure 158 gr Lead Semi Wad Cutters in K frames, J frames and Colt Detective Spls.

This load has put down cows with one shot, from 3" K frames, and the snub nose J frame and Colt DS.
In fact the standard pressure 158 gr LSWC is the carry load for CCW and the load for putting down cows.

And the 158 gr standard pressure Lead Round Nose, is also used to put down cows and both loads have done so , for decades.

 

[St.Pete7]

Man, I can't tell you how many years I worried about my S&W Mod 37 not having the length to generate the velocity or expansion that I thought I would need. To top it off, I never load +p rounds due to pressure overload due to the lower tensile strength of the aluminum frame.
I was at the range one day with my wife for her CCP and I had the pleasure to speak to a well-informed instructor. I told him my worries and he said to simply load it with a lighter JHP designed for "snubbies" that won't take the +p loads. His point was that my little belly gun would most likely only be used in close quarters. He recommended the (110gr-'Federal Hydra-Shok JHP') stating that it would provide enough velocity in the short barrel while still expanding and limiting the chance for collateral damage. I like the round very much and would recommend it in any "snubbie". Good Luck!
St.Pete7

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

A 9mm will beat a .38 every time in respects to velocity with factory ammo. The 9mm is a high pressure round. Even from a 2" revolver the 9mm shines.

 

[zxcvbob]

know ive seen it posted here on this site alot that put a 9mm round in an identical revolver, it will be weaker then a 38spcl.

I've seen it many times too, but it's not true. Plus the 9mm in moon clips, with its short tapered cases will give you *really* quick and trouble-free reloads.

9mm is perfect for a snubnose revolver; the only problem might be bullet selection in factory ammo.

 

[NG VI]

I've seen it many times too, but it's not true. Plus the 9mm in moon clips, with its short tapered cases will give you *really* quick and trouble-free reloads.

9mm is perfect for a snubnose revolver; the only problem might be bullet selection in factory ammo.

147 HST or 147 HST+P would be about ideal for me.

 

[WVleo]

Hi, I have and carry both . A Colt DS II .38 and a Kahr PM9 9mm . I don't think the crack-head zombie mugger carjacker buggler would really care which one would come in contact with them. But it makes good forum BS over morning coffee . Now placement thats a different matter . WVleo

 

[oneounceload]

remember that the barrel measurement of a wheelgun is added to the lenght of the cylinder that holds the cartridge, while the barrel measurement of the semi-auto includes the chamber which houses the cartridge

??? Since when??? The barrel on a revolver is measured from the forcing cone area to the muzzle.

As to 3" 9MM, how about a 3" 9MM revolver like the S&W 547??

Best of both worlds IMO.