S&W .38 J frame or KT P-11 9mm FOR CC?
- Thread starter MR.G
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The 60 may be a little heavy, but I would still pick a J-frame variant. I carry a 431PD in a pocket holster (the 432PD, the hammerless version, may be a better choice). 13 oz and 6 shots of .32 mag that will always go "bang".MR.G said:
-David
Wilson 17&26
Member
I would feel more confident with my 14 oz P-11 with 13 rounds (flush fitting LEO mag) of 9mm Cor-Bon. My daily carry P-11 hasn’t had a failure in the last eight years and 1,000+ rounds.
stevesmith7
Member
I've got a couple of snubbies and have no complaints with them but, my P11 is smaller, lighter, holds twice as many rounds, and has had all the fluff an buff/trigger mods done to it. It functions perfectly. As much as I like the wheel guns it just goes in the jacket more often.
Having said that I don't find either comfortable in a front pants pocket. Only my P32 fits that roll.
Steve
Having said that I don't find either comfortable in a front pants pocket. Only my P32 fits that roll.
Steve
lyricsdad
Member
i put a j frame model 60 ladysmith for in the waistband carry, i think it would be too big for the pocket, i would not want it to swing around in the front pocket and smack a nut. ouch.
M2 Carbine
member
I like the hi cap P-11. I use it as a boot pistol.
But my J frame has a Crimson Trace laser grip. If the J frame would fit my pocket I'd carry it.
In daylight both can be counted on to do well but in almost dark or low light the Crimson Trace equipped 38 will do this.
Almost dark. Ten rounds.
I have to adjust it a little right.
But my J frame has a Crimson Trace laser grip. If the J frame would fit my pocket I'd carry it.
In daylight both can be counted on to do well but in almost dark or low light the Crimson Trace equipped 38 will do this.
Almost dark. Ten rounds.
I have to adjust it a little right.
fastbolt
Member
Well now, it just depends, like with most other things ...
This is strictly hypothetical for me, as I don't believe Kel-Tec pistols are on the CA Approved list ... However ...
Based simply upon the five P-11's that I watched come through our off-duty qualification and CCW courses of fire, of which only one of them were able to complete the course of fire without repeated malfunctions ... I'd still opt for the J-frame.
Of the couple of P-32's that I've seen come through the courses, both of those actually finished the short course of fire without functioning issues.
Not a statistically significant database from which to draw any conclusions, granted ... but watching four out of five people experience repeated malfunctions with the little pistols didn't make me want to run out and buy one as a defensive weapon ...
I suspect that some of the malfunctions may have been more shooter-related than actually pistol-related, especially since they're diminutive polymer-framed pistols. One of the guys (experienced cop shooter) was only experiencing malfunctions when shooting 1-handed. His functioning issues resolved themselves as soon as he started the 2-handed portion of the course of fire. Itty bitty polymer framed pistols and "shooter grip issues" aren't an unknown combination of events which can sometimes potentially result in a less-than-satisfactory range experience ...
I prefer to think of the range as being as close to an 'ideal' set of circumstances as a shooter is likely to encounter ... no 'real threat', reasonably controlled conditions, clearly identified shoot & no-shoot targets with safe backstops, no 'real world' distractions, reasonably safe, firm and well maintained surfaces for standing and movement, the shooter is starting the activity in reasonably good health, without injury, and able to expect what's about to occur to some extent, etc., etc..
Personally, I prefer a defensive weapon which has shown itself to be the least susceptible to shooter-induced functioning issues, especially under adverse conditions, for both the weapon and the shooter. If it's only going to be acceptably reliable under ideal range conditions, when the shooter is expecting to shoot, isn't unduly stressed or physically affected by things like pain and/or injury ... then it may not be what I'd choose for a dedicated defensive weapon.
A revolver, especially a DAO revolver, is still a reasonably simple and viable choice for some folks ... but not for others. I say this because not everyone is seemingly as likely to be as familiar with proper revolver skills as they were when I was growing up. I almost wonder if revolver skills are becoming a lost art ...
The J-frame can be even more difficult for many folks because it's a SMALL revolver, which introduces still further potential skills and familiarity issues for the users. Reduced grip, heavier DAO trigger (with an actual revolver DA trigger stroke, meaning length of trigger travel during the stroke and then for trigger reset), reduced size sights and short sight radius, just to name a few ...
J-frames aren't for everyone.
For those folks who spend the time necessary to acquire proper DA/DAO revolver skills, and familiarize themselves with the operating requirements of the shorter barreled revolvers, they're still an attractive choice in personal defensive weapons for many folk's perceived needs ... mine included.
As you can see, though, some folks have reported receiving satisfactory results from their K-T's.
This is one of those issues where the prospective purchaser and user will have to do their research to the extent they feel necessary, which may likely include arranging to test fire examples of each weapon with good quality ammunition of the type they anticipate using if they select that type of weapon ... and then making the best informed choice they feel is appropriate for their needs.
With personal choice comes personal responsibility ... and it's not like you can't change your mind. Many of us have more than a single preference and choice, especially when it comes to anticipated conditions and perceived needs ... or if we simply happen to like a particular firearm, and choose it for use as a defensive weapon ...
I don't pretend that my choices are going to satisfy anyone other than me ... nor do they need to. (They do, however, still have to satisfy the policy requirements and regulations of my agency.)
Oh yeah ... short answer? For me? J-frame.
This is strictly hypothetical for me, as I don't believe Kel-Tec pistols are on the CA Approved list ... However ...
Based simply upon the five P-11's that I watched come through our off-duty qualification and CCW courses of fire, of which only one of them were able to complete the course of fire without repeated malfunctions ... I'd still opt for the J-frame.
Of the couple of P-32's that I've seen come through the courses, both of those actually finished the short course of fire without functioning issues.
Not a statistically significant database from which to draw any conclusions, granted ... but watching four out of five people experience repeated malfunctions with the little pistols didn't make me want to run out and buy one as a defensive weapon ...
I suspect that some of the malfunctions may have been more shooter-related than actually pistol-related, especially since they're diminutive polymer-framed pistols. One of the guys (experienced cop shooter) was only experiencing malfunctions when shooting 1-handed. His functioning issues resolved themselves as soon as he started the 2-handed portion of the course of fire. Itty bitty polymer framed pistols and "shooter grip issues" aren't an unknown combination of events which can sometimes potentially result in a less-than-satisfactory range experience ...
I prefer to think of the range as being as close to an 'ideal' set of circumstances as a shooter is likely to encounter ... no 'real threat', reasonably controlled conditions, clearly identified shoot & no-shoot targets with safe backstops, no 'real world' distractions, reasonably safe, firm and well maintained surfaces for standing and movement, the shooter is starting the activity in reasonably good health, without injury, and able to expect what's about to occur to some extent, etc., etc..
Personally, I prefer a defensive weapon which has shown itself to be the least susceptible to shooter-induced functioning issues, especially under adverse conditions, for both the weapon and the shooter. If it's only going to be acceptably reliable under ideal range conditions, when the shooter is expecting to shoot, isn't unduly stressed or physically affected by things like pain and/or injury ... then it may not be what I'd choose for a dedicated defensive weapon.
A revolver, especially a DAO revolver, is still a reasonably simple and viable choice for some folks ... but not for others. I say this because not everyone is seemingly as likely to be as familiar with proper revolver skills as they were when I was growing up. I almost wonder if revolver skills are becoming a lost art ...
The J-frame can be even more difficult for many folks because it's a SMALL revolver, which introduces still further potential skills and familiarity issues for the users. Reduced grip, heavier DAO trigger (with an actual revolver DA trigger stroke, meaning length of trigger travel during the stroke and then for trigger reset), reduced size sights and short sight radius, just to name a few ...
J-frames aren't for everyone.
For those folks who spend the time necessary to acquire proper DA/DAO revolver skills, and familiarize themselves with the operating requirements of the shorter barreled revolvers, they're still an attractive choice in personal defensive weapons for many folk's perceived needs ... mine included.
As you can see, though, some folks have reported receiving satisfactory results from their K-T's.
This is one of those issues where the prospective purchaser and user will have to do their research to the extent they feel necessary, which may likely include arranging to test fire examples of each weapon with good quality ammunition of the type they anticipate using if they select that type of weapon ... and then making the best informed choice they feel is appropriate for their needs.
With personal choice comes personal responsibility ... and it's not like you can't change your mind.
Many of us have more than a single preference and choice, especially when it comes to anticipated conditions and perceived needs ... or if we simply happen to like a particular firearm, and choose it for use as a defensive weapon ...I don't pretend that my choices are going to satisfy anyone other than me ... nor do they need to. (They do, however, still have to satisfy the policy requirements and regulations of my agency.)
Oh yeah ... short answer? For me? J-frame.
bpisler
Member
I have to go with the j frame over
the P-11.I've owned 5-6 j frames
and 3 P-11's,2 of the P-11's were
not not to be trusted.All of the j
frames were great shooters.
the P-11.I've owned 5-6 j frames
and 3 P-11's,2 of the P-11's were
not not to be trusted.All of the j
frames were great shooters.
fiVe
Member
S & W 642
Dollar An Hour
Member
I'd trust the revolver more, you have to trust your CC gun.
I don't think capacity is an issue. If 5 rounds of .38+P isn't enough for your situation, you have bigger problems.
I don't think capacity is an issue. If 5 rounds of .38+P isn't enough for your situation, you have bigger problems.
EddieCoyle
Member
+1 on the J-frame S&W. My carry gun is a S&W 642 with FBI loads.
Black Snowman
Member
Between the two you listed I'd go with the revolver, but I ended up with a P3AT. The reason was thickness. I felt I would carry the thin P3AT a lot more often that the bigger revolvers or double stacks, and the gun you have is infinately better than the one you left at home.
10-Ring
Member
Lately, it's been the j-frame hands down
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
+2 on the 642: it's light, inexpensive, reliable, will shoot +P all day long, and lasergrips are available. It's wound up being more or less my "summer gun".
(Incidentally, I was looking @ the taurus 9mm revo before I got my 642, but it was twice as heavy, even though it was smaller)
-10 on the P11: It's significantly larger than the .32 and .380 versions, and I'll swear to the non-evil diety of your choice it has the crappiest trigger I've ever personally tried. Yuck!
+1 on the KT .380 Its the gun to have when you absolutely, positively gotta keep it hidden.
(Incidentally, I was looking @ the taurus 9mm revo before I got my 642, but it was twice as heavy, even though it was smaller)
-10 on the P11: It's significantly larger than the .32 and .380 versions, and I'll swear to the non-evil diety of your choice it has the crappiest trigger I've ever personally tried. Yuck!
+1 on the KT .380 Its the gun to have when you absolutely, positively gotta keep it hidden.
obiwan1
Member
Once the P11 is broken in, then it's a toss up. I have both and carry either one depending on mood/necessity. Remember, the KT MUST be broken in!
I've owned 4 different J-frames, never a malfunction. The 15 oz Air Weights or lighter variants will be lighter than a loaded P-11. Its also about the same size overall, but the J-frame is thicker.
I also own a P-11 with only about 150 rounds through it, it has jammed twice. It still needs to be broken in, and the only jams were on hollow points, but I suspect it will get better. The P-11 is slimmer and more powerful with more rounds.
If I had to pick only one it would be the J-frame for reliability and simplicity.
*I also love my P-32, about 250 rounds through it, only 1 jam. Perfect gun for when you can't conceal a "real" gun.
I also own a P-11 with only about 150 rounds through it, it has jammed twice. It still needs to be broken in, and the only jams were on hollow points, but I suspect it will get better. The P-11 is slimmer and more powerful with more rounds.
If I had to pick only one it would be the J-frame for reliability and simplicity.
*I also love my P-32, about 250 rounds through it, only 1 jam. Perfect gun for when you can't conceal a "real" gun.
MICHAEL T
Member
Of those two I would go with J frame I have a mod 49 bodyguard on lay a way. Winter coming and I wanted a jacket pocket pistol . Will be useing my old standby FBI load..
Mulliga
Member
My friend's P-11 had a pretty bad trigger - very long and a bit vague. My J-frame has a pretty heavy, slightly rough pull, but at least it's short and the trigger return is fast. Needless to say, the J-frame is perfectly reliable with any type of ammo, no "breaking-in" needed. It's kind of fat though, so it's not the gun to pocket carry if you absoluely _cannot_ let other people know you have something in your pockets.
Javelin Man
Member
pocket
I must be like a lot of the other people on board here in that I have a J frame .38, a Kel-tec P11 and a P32. Only the P32 goes in my pocket. I wouldn't think of putting my P11 or .38 in my pants pockets. Perhaps a jacket pocket, but I have IWB and OWB holsters for the bigger guns. As much as I like the .38, I'm afraid I'll take one shot at more than one guy and suddenly start rationing my shots, afraid to take another one in fear I may run out. I'm partial to the 13 rounds I can get from my P11.
I was just thinking of the Toledo riots if my wife was working at the Toledo Blade newspaper Saturday night. She says she would've called me and waited for me to show up to escort her home. I believe I would've rather had my P11 than my Chief's Special in the face of a possible riot. Of course, the AK would've been nearby, too. Fortunately, her shift got changed and she doesn't work weekends or she would've been just a few blocks from the riot.
The last jam I had was with the S&W mod 36. go figure. Still don't know what caused it to freeze up, but it hasn't done it since.
I must be like a lot of the other people on board here in that I have a J frame .38, a Kel-tec P11 and a P32. Only the P32 goes in my pocket. I wouldn't think of putting my P11 or .38 in my pants pockets. Perhaps a jacket pocket, but I have IWB and OWB holsters for the bigger guns. As much as I like the .38, I'm afraid I'll take one shot at more than one guy and suddenly start rationing my shots, afraid to take another one in fear I may run out. I'm partial to the 13 rounds I can get from my P11.
I was just thinking of the Toledo riots if my wife was working at the Toledo Blade newspaper Saturday night. She says she would've called me and waited for me to show up to escort her home. I believe I would've rather had my P11 than my Chief's Special in the face of a possible riot. Of course, the AK would've been nearby, too. Fortunately, her shift got changed and she doesn't work weekends or she would've been just a few blocks from the riot.
The last jam I had was with the S&W mod 36. go figure. Still don't know what caused it to freeze up, but it hasn't done it since.
I own a KT P-40 (P-11 in .40S&W). It is now reliable with my carry ammo.
That said, I don't carry it often, anymore. If I can wrangle a cover garment, I carry my SW1911. If I require pocket carry, I carry my Taurus Ti snubby.
I generally carry the P-40 when the if I shot my SW1911 & Taurus snubby & have not yet cleaned them.
That said, I don't carry it often, anymore. If I can wrangle a cover garment, I carry my SW1911. If I require pocket carry, I carry my Taurus Ti snubby.
I generally carry the P-40 when the if I shot my SW1911 & Taurus snubby & have not yet cleaned them.
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