Fosbery
Member
Ah, the Daily Mail. The source of all truth in the world. Sorry, did I say truth? I meant hyperbole, sensationalism and more often than not, downright lies.
UK: Muslims face extra checks in new travel crackdown
- Thread starter Desertdog
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DRZinn
Member
Straw man. No-one has advocated going around and rounding up Muslims, or Arabs, or people we think look like Muslims, or Arabs. What has been advocated is in an instance where people are already going through a security checkpoint, look a little closer at those who are a little more likely to be the ones you're trying to stop.
Fosbery
Member
I think that's a logical exaggeration though. Sure, now it's just checks at airports. Then it will be towerblocks, banks, busses, trains..then it will be special ID cards, then badges, then the 'Westernisation Camps' then the 'Community Work Camps' and finally the death camps.
Sure that takes it a long way but large things come from small beginnings. We never suspected in 1920 when lisencing was introduced for guns in Britain, that 100 years layer we'd be in the practical dictatorship we are now in. The Jews never thought that when Hitler came to power, they'd be systematically exterminated.
Sure that takes it a long way but large things come from small beginnings. We never suspected in 1920 when lisencing was introduced for guns in Britain, that 100 years layer we'd be in the practical dictatorship we are now in. The Jews never thought that when Hitler came to power, they'd be systematically exterminated.
FireBreather01
Member
You were just driving down the street, minding your own business, when Mr. Law & Order suddenly pulled you over, slammed you against the car and threw you in his back seat - for no reason other than your long hair? The civil rights violations must have been legendary in your town.
This Libertarian approach of 'leave me and everyone else alone, free from any interference' is a grand idea, and I'm more libertarian than anything else, is great until it becomes an irrational adherence to an ideal and morphs into just sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge an obvious problem. Strict adherence to those ideals actually serves to create more threats to freedom. By identifying a problem and preventing a threat from coming to fruition, we're all freer than if a violent event actually happens.
When these incidents start occurring at places we frequent, how are you going to feel when you have to go through check points to buy food and other staples, Christmas presents, etc? We're going to be holed up in our homes, ordering everything off of the net and waiting for the deliveries. Was NY freer right after 911? If we had paid attention to obvious signs then we wouldn't be in half the mess we are now. You think more selective profiling is bad? Wait until every bus and train empties out every time a dark-haired guy with a knap-sack gets on board, how does that make us a better, freer, society? Stop him and check him before he gets on - even if it's me
Asian Muslims? Sure it could happen, but let's pay attention to what the threat is right here and now. If you observe just the Middle Eastern Muslims alone you're still eliminating a majority of the current threat. If we don't at least keep an eye out for them, they'll blind us with their violent zealotry and our freedoms will be a distant memory as this country gets more and more militarized with every terror incident.
Fosbery
Member
You want to preserve our freedoms by getting rid of them?
A novel idea, I'll give it that...
A novel idea, I'll give it that...
carebear
Member
The strawman rebuttal to profiling includes "How do you identify Muslims? neener neeener" Who cares, you don't really have to.
I'd be happy if they'd give extra attention (which does NOT equal "ignore everyone else"
) to younger folks, especially men, who are flying on passports and residency cards reflecting original national origins of Pakistan, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, maybe Malaysia etc. As known terror suspects with original origins from elsewhere become prevalent, add those countries of origin to the list.
You know, just in case the Basques or the IRA suddenly decide to start taking down aircraft because they suddenly hate America and Western civilization as a whole.
Will it work against 2nd generation Western or US native-born converts? No, but until those groups become the majority it will add extra attention (again, which doesn't mean less rational attention to others) to the most likely suspects.
As far as uniformed US military travelling on orders, grey-haired old ladies from Minnesota named Jorgensonson and Medal of Honor winners go, I think I'm willing to sacrifice a little perceived safety to gain some commonsense liberty (as Franklin would say).
I'd be happy if they'd give extra attention (which does NOT equal "ignore everyone else"
) to younger folks, especially men, who are flying on passports and residency cards reflecting original national origins of Pakistan, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, maybe Malaysia etc. As known terror suspects with original origins from elsewhere become prevalent, add those countries of origin to the list.You know, just in case the Basques or the IRA suddenly decide to start taking down aircraft because they suddenly hate America and Western civilization as a whole.
Will it work against 2nd generation Western or US native-born converts? No, but until those groups become the majority it will add extra attention (again, which doesn't mean less rational attention to others) to the most likely suspects.
As far as uniformed US military travelling on orders, grey-haired old ladies from Minnesota named Jorgensonson and Medal of Honor winners go, I think I'm willing to sacrifice a little perceived safety to gain some commonsense liberty (as Franklin would say).
Skeptic
Member
I can understand why those fitting a certain profile will be looked at harder than others.
Here's a hint... It's not my 82 year old grandmother in a wheelchair that's killing folks and blowing up planes, trains and automobiles. Nope not her, but she is the one pulled over to the side at BWI and given a hard time by those (IMHO) that couldn't find bin laden if he was sitting on their lap.
I fly out of Reagan and Dulles all of the time and I am pulled over to be searched and frisked. How many white, govt employees with dip passports on official orders are blowing up planes?
For the most part, it's middle eastern appearing (dark skin/hair) young males that have in the recent past been causing a lot of hate, discontent and death all in the name of a religeon.
People are understandably scared and they want something done about it. If "profiling" keeps bad guys off airplanes.... I'm all for it. Profiling seems to work, why not use it?
Here's a hint... It's not my 82 year old grandmother in a wheelchair that's killing folks and blowing up planes, trains and automobiles. Nope not her, but she is the one pulled over to the side at BWI and given a hard time by those (IMHO) that couldn't find bin laden if he was sitting on their lap.
I fly out of Reagan and Dulles all of the time and I am pulled over to be searched and frisked. How many white, govt employees with dip passports on official orders are blowing up planes?
For the most part, it's middle eastern appearing (dark skin/hair) young males that have in the recent past been causing a lot of hate, discontent and death all in the name of a religeon.
People are understandably scared and they want something done about it. If "profiling" keeps bad guys off airplanes.... I'm all for it. Profiling seems to work, why not use it?
FireBreather01 said:
Yes, everything but the slamming me into the car part. Why, do you think it doesn't happen?
If profiling worked demonstrably better than random checks, I'd be all for it, too bad it doesn't. Pretending that it does is truly "just sticking your head inthe sand."
You believe that your local grocery store is a terrorist target? Please explain to me how profiling would have stopped the 9/11 murderers?
If I were an al-Qaida leader and I noticed that my middle-eastern looking radical muslim suicide bombers kept getting caught, I'd look for asian radical muslim suicide bombers. My confidence in the ability of the airlines and government to protect the airways evaporated when I flew on private plane last month. I could have dragged a nuke up the flight stairs and crowbarred it through the hatch and nobody would have said a thing. I walked straight from my rental car right onto the plane.
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
The funny thing is that no one seems to know why the terrorists attack us.
According to Bush, it is "Because they hate freedom."
That is hogwash. They don't care about the fact that there are Jews, gays, and Christians in New York. They don't care about the fact that women are people here.
What they care about is the fact that we are over there. They think that the Arabian peninsula is holy (why I'll never know, it's a desert people. God cares about your beliefs, not certain places).
We attack a war technique instead of discovering the real reason they are waging this war on us.
Until we admit to why they are fighting us, and let those there live backwards lives until they've had enough, and rise up against their leaders, we'll have terrorism, and there ain't a thing we can do about it.
According to Bush, it is "Because they hate freedom."
That is hogwash. They don't care about the fact that there are Jews, gays, and Christians in New York. They don't care about the fact that women are people here.
What they care about is the fact that we are over there. They think that the Arabian peninsula is holy (why I'll never know, it's a desert people. God cares about your beliefs, not certain places).
We attack a war technique instead of discovering the real reason they are waging this war on us.
Until we admit to why they are fighting us, and let those there live backwards lives until they've had enough, and rise up against their leaders, we'll have terrorism, and there ain't a thing we can do about it.
Chaotic Mind
Member
If you single out Muslims, then those like the Muslim that gave the tip to the British police about this latest plot may not come forward. If you step on a persons neck they don't feel like helping very much. When the FBI rounded up thousands of Arab and Muslim men after 911 in a panic it was one of the stupidest things they could have done. Isolating the community that can help you is stupid.
I will tell you this. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. If Islam was a violent faith then the "war" would already be over and we would have all lost. If Islam taught to just go out and kill all non-Muslims then we would be up to our waists in blood.
Just imagine 5 million suicide bombers. Now imagine that only half are as successful as those on 911. Bye bye Western world. But it's not like that thank God. Muslims have different views than what we in America generally have, and thats their right. Who are we to tell them how to live. Our way is not the only way.
I will tell you this. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. If Islam was a violent faith then the "war" would already be over and we would have all lost. If Islam taught to just go out and kill all non-Muslims then we would be up to our waists in blood.
Just imagine 5 million suicide bombers. Now imagine that only half are as successful as those on 911. Bye bye Western world. But it's not like that thank God. Muslims have different views than what we in America generally have, and thats their right. Who are we to tell them how to live. Our way is not the only way.
I know one time that a goverment profiled one particular ethinic/religious group. They were Jewish and it was not just 70 years ago. The end result was mass murder on a horrific scale.
I don't know if profiling makes me "safer" or stops terrorist attacks, but honestly, I would rather run the risk of being blown up than trample on the civil liberties of those Americans who may look a little bit different... who knows, as a Caucasian, I may be one of the minority before too long myself.
I don't know if profiling makes me "safer" or stops terrorist attacks, but honestly, I would rather run the risk of being blown up than trample on the civil liberties of those Americans who may look a little bit different... who knows, as a Caucasian, I may be one of the minority before too long myself.
Desertdog
Member
We could pull all American citizens back to the states and it would not change anything as far as the Islamist Facist are concerned.
IMO they will not stop until the world is all Fundamental Islamist, they are totally wiped out, Jesus returns, whichever occurs first.
Not quite.CM said:
Most of that 1.5B don't have a pot to p!$$ in, let alone access to anything that could be an existential threat to Western Civ.
You may have noticed the trend in terrorists who operate in the West: they are more & more likely to be 2nd-gen immigrants. Citizens, IOW. These folks are the growing threat because:
1. They are citizens of some western civ country
2. They speak the language better than some schlep picked up off the "Arab Street."
3. It is much easier to operate a terror network in a free country than one that routinely savages its own citizens.
4. Being citizens of a decent, western country, they are much more likely to have the resources to implement their plan.
cassandrasdaddy
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lod airport 3 guys 28 dead 70 something wounded
"This targeting of airport resources is called passenger profiling—the Israelis invented it and they've got probably the safest airports and airlines in the world. "
focusing on the arabs is what let the red army pull off this hit.
"This targeting of airport resources is called passenger profiling—the Israelis invented it and they've got probably the safest airports and airlines in the world. "
focusing on the arabs is what let the red army pull off this hit.
cassandrasdaddy
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really?
"Most of that 1.5B don't have a pot to p!$$ in, let alone access to anything that could be an existential threat to Western Civ."
i thought all that oil money ended up over there.
"Most of that 1.5B don't have a pot to p!$$ in, let alone access to anything that could be an existential threat to Western Civ."
i thought all that oil money ended up over there.
carebear
Member
But it ends up in the hands of the leadership, not the individuals. Those who sign on board the terror train may get a cut in the form of training and wages but the average peasant (99% of the 1.5 Billion) don't have the scratch, know how or desire.
That's why most of these attacks are on local Western targets. Even the attacks on Western targets in the West are best committed by locals. Importing non-local talent was tough logistically before every security service started actively looking, heck we interfered with several of the original 9/11 hijackers almost by accident.
In a good sense, it's now a bit harder to get Western converts to the terrorism screed in-depth training since the safe zones are now war zones and travel is so closely watched. I'd rather deal with bomb makers who have mostly book larnin' rather than those who have been away to school and set a few off for real.
cassandrasdaddy
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yea
"I'd rather deal with bomb makers who have mostly book larnin' rather than those who have been away to school and set a few off for real."
yea the learning curve is steep. remember john wayne in the fighting seabees explaining to the kid how theexplosives expert got to be an expert
"I'd rather deal with bomb makers who have mostly book larnin' rather than those who have been away to school and set a few off for real."
yea the learning curve is steep. remember john wayne in the fighting seabees explaining to the kid how theexplosives expert got to be an expert
Technology is key
We have the technology to screen every passenger with a thermal camera. It is a proven scientific fact that nervous and agitated people, like those that are about to perpetrate a terrorist act, have elevated facial temperatures, particularly around the eyes.
Perfect, by no means, the newlyweds who just couldn't wait to be intimate and did the deed in their car before entering the airport would be suspect by these means also. However, there are few people about to commit suicide and take a bunch with them that aren't the least bit nervous.
We're not talking about seasoned killers here, just people naive enough to believe that eternal life and 100 virgins will be waiting for them on the other side. While their superiors recruit more like them since they are, after all, expendable. If these masterminds aren't willing to join the suicide brigade with their followers, then they don't beleive as their followers do.
There are other ways. But then again, when you put all the pictures together of the extremists that we have caught or know they were involved, you end up with some pretty convincing statistics of what nationality the jihadists are and their "profile." But then again, they are a minority in their own nationality also, sticky stuff this topic. I don't have any answers.
jeepmor
We have the technology to screen every passenger with a thermal camera. It is a proven scientific fact that nervous and agitated people, like those that are about to perpetrate a terrorist act, have elevated facial temperatures, particularly around the eyes.
Perfect, by no means, the newlyweds who just couldn't wait to be intimate and did the deed in their car before entering the airport would be suspect by these means also. However, there are few people about to commit suicide and take a bunch with them that aren't the least bit nervous.
We're not talking about seasoned killers here, just people naive enough to believe that eternal life and 100 virgins will be waiting for them on the other side. While their superiors recruit more like them since they are, after all, expendable. If these masterminds aren't willing to join the suicide brigade with their followers, then they don't beleive as their followers do.
There are other ways. But then again, when you put all the pictures together of the extremists that we have caught or know they were involved, you end up with some pretty convincing statistics of what nationality the jihadists are and their "profile." But then again, they are a minority in their own nationality also, sticky stuff this topic. I don't have any answers.
jeepmor
Chaotic Mind
Member
I think people get hung up on the whole virgins thing. Whether this is because they are too blind to see that facts or just like to use that whenever this subject comes up I don't know. The reason some Muslims want to kill us is because of things that we have done, not because we allow gay pride parades or because people go clubbing or even because they just want to get laid. That is fairly stupid, imo. No offense meant.
Chaotic Mind
Member
As for that thermal imaging thing, I think that sounds great.
If the shoe fits!!! Maybe if we profile the muslims and pull them out of the lines in airports etc. and put them through a bit of *****, maybe then they will start to denounce the radical sects of islam and help us win this war. At this point until they start becoming part of the solution, they are part of the problem..
C
C
Some folks do not understand the nature of the hate directed toward the West, despite our enemies trumpeting it--repeatedly--through every form of media.
It is not about how many troops we have stationed in Arabia or our foreign policy. With a grand total of zero troops in Arabia (before GWI), we were already the object of terrorism. Securing the safety of Bosnian muslims brought no relief; same for Somali muslims.
Many in the West have a difficult time undersanding motivations based on religion and ideology. They think Islamic terrorism has to be a reaction to what we, America or the West, does. As if the entire world has no ability to think/believe/act on its own and can only react when America acts.
This conflict has been ongoing since 632AD and has had several stages:
1. Muslim conquest (632-732): Islam swept out of Arabia to conquer an empire from the Pyrrenies in the west to Afganistan in the east, blasting through half of the lands of Christendom.
2. Islam/West at Loggerheads (732-1095): Islam bangs on the West & the West is in a holding action.
3. Western Reaction/Crusades (1095-1291): The West finally tried to take back what was taken from it & takes the fight to Islam.
4. More Loggerheads (1291-1571): More holding action by the West & gradual loss by hte West (Byzantium chief among the losses)
5. Western Revival/Muslim Backpedalling (1571-1683) Bookended by two Muslim defeats (Lepanto & Vienna), Islam is knocked back on its heels & is no longer an existential threat after this period
6. Western Dominance/Muslim Regression (1683-1948) Islam falls behind hte West in every conceivable metric and does not have the ability to threaten the West
7. Muslim Resurgence (1948-now) The land where Islam reigns is still a sink of corruption and villainy, but the technology & know-how of hte West becomes easily transferable and useable by its enemies. Islam is now, again, an existential threat to the West. The Islamic (nuclear) bomb combined with means of delivery (missile, cargo ship, etc) is merely the most overt sign of this.
Folks had best be prepared for a long, hard slog, if history is any guide.
It is not about how many troops we have stationed in Arabia or our foreign policy. With a grand total of zero troops in Arabia (before GWI), we were already the object of terrorism. Securing the safety of Bosnian muslims brought no relief; same for Somali muslims.
Many in the West have a difficult time undersanding motivations based on religion and ideology. They think Islamic terrorism has to be a reaction to what we, America or the West, does. As if the entire world has no ability to think/believe/act on its own and can only react when America acts.
This conflict has been ongoing since 632AD and has had several stages:
1. Muslim conquest (632-732): Islam swept out of Arabia to conquer an empire from the Pyrrenies in the west to Afganistan in the east, blasting through half of the lands of Christendom.
2. Islam/West at Loggerheads (732-1095): Islam bangs on the West & the West is in a holding action.
3. Western Reaction/Crusades (1095-1291): The West finally tried to take back what was taken from it & takes the fight to Islam.
4. More Loggerheads (1291-1571): More holding action by the West & gradual loss by hte West (Byzantium chief among the losses)
5. Western Revival/Muslim Backpedalling (1571-1683) Bookended by two Muslim defeats (Lepanto & Vienna), Islam is knocked back on its heels & is no longer an existential threat after this period
6. Western Dominance/Muslim Regression (1683-1948) Islam falls behind hte West in every conceivable metric and does not have the ability to threaten the West
7. Muslim Resurgence (1948-now) The land where Islam reigns is still a sink of corruption and villainy, but the technology & know-how of hte West becomes easily transferable and useable by its enemies. Islam is now, again, an existential threat to the West. The Islamic (nuclear) bomb combined with means of delivery (missile, cargo ship, etc) is merely the most overt sign of this.
Folks had best be prepared for a long, hard slog, if history is any guide.
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