Undercover Probe Of Nevada Gun Shows

[Waitone]

Look for this bust to feature large in upcoming moves to close the so-called "Gunshow Loophole." It ain't dead and McCain about to quit.

 

[Langenator]

maybe he sold an "assult rifle" to someone that legally couldn't possess it; like someone that lives in California.

If the seller in question is a type 01 FFL dealer, I can understand this. But what if I'm Joe Gunowner, walking around the Reno show with my SAR-1 over my shoulder with the "For Sale $350" flag sticking out of the barrel, and a guy walks up to me and says he'll buy it for my price. I don't know of any Federal law saying I have to find out who he is or where he's from (personally, as a CYA measure, you better bet I would.) Is there a Nevada law on this?

 

[atek3]

Langenator, two of a the "good stings" they conduct at gunshows are:
having a group walk up to buy a ppt firearm, one mutters under their breath a reference to living in another state, you miss the reference and sell to them anyway, BOOM, selling firearms across state lines.
My favorite method of entrapment is they walk around selling ppt something for an insane price, like 400 dollars for a pre-ban AR. Then later while you are walking around w/ your new AR another different fed says, "Wow thats just the rifle I've been looking for! I'll give you 1500 dollars." You sell it to them thinking you've made a cool 1100 dollars, but actually you get busted for being an "unlicensed dealer". There's a lot of great entrapment methods that they can get you on. There's a section in UC where JR goes over some of the biggies, also in Boston's Gun Bible there is a great section on "how to avoid getting tagged at gunshows."

atek3

 

[Art Eatman]

I've no argument about the foolishness of many of our gun control laws. I do believe that the laws concerning felons and guns are generally valid.

There's an ancient saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Heck, it's older than I am! When I worked gun shows somewhat regularly, I made a point of learning about stuff that could get me in trouble. There is neither profit nor savings when you get crosswise with the laws as they exist, regardless of their foolishness.

IOW, I don't have a lot of sympathy for most folks who get in trouble, since it's their duty to themselves to learn what can be done and what can't be done. If they didn't want to take the trouble, they should have chosen some other line of work.

I think it says a lot for the general smarts and the integrity of most folks who get tables at gunshows. A year's worth of gun shows? That's a fair number of shows, totalling, what, a couple or three thousand tables? Reno, Vegas? Winnemucca? More than one show in a year? Fourteen "bad guys" out of all that? Looks pretty good.

Art

 

[LAR-15]

Having unregistered or illegal machineguns is just plain dumb.

That IS one thing the BATFE guys will nail you on.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I'm waiting to find out what Agent Schmuckatelli has to say.

 

[fastbolt]

Well, remembering that bad guys WILL often continue to do bad things, regardless of the laws ...

Which would you rather see happen?

Folks of criminal intent quietly & illegally buying firearms at gunshows, especially "media worthy" (yes, that hurt my mouth ) firearms, and then have it become a media AND political event when they return to wherever and commit violent & atrocious crimes? (Not to mention that often innocent lives are lost).

Or, have them caught illegally obtaining firearms, and their crimes are such that lives haven't been lost, or otherwise tragically (and media-wise) affected?

Got a better way to keep criminals from obtaining firearms at these venues? Share with us ...

As far as ordinarily law-abiding folks that are unaware of how they're breaking either local or federal laws? Well, perhaps they should accept responsibility for their personal actions, not try and rationalize their actions by claiming ignorance, and consider that many "problems" might be easily avoided by taking the time to learn the applicable laws.

I've attended gunshows in the past where the organizers of the events took steps to post the relevent information about the laws, for the benefit of both vendors and attendees.

Don't like the laws? Our method of government provides for changing them, you know ...

 

[atek3]

Don't like the laws? Our method of government provides for changing them, you know ...

Because this fall, your vote will make a big frigging difference. Hmmm Bu'ushists or sKerry. I'm sure both are just gunning to repeal GCA 68.

No, federal politics these days is a holding action, trying to delay the relentless encroachment of fascism into every facet of American life. Neither the repugs or the Democrats are for smaller government, Neither party is for repealing federal gun laws, neither party is against economic interventionism. Who does that leave? libertarians, who might squeak by with 1% of the vote...great. Which THR sage gave the great line, "When theres a boot on your neck it doesn't matter if it is the right or the left boot?"
http://www.libertyartworx.com/BOYN.html
http://www.simonjester.org/merger.swf

atek3

 

[manwithoutahome]

I have to agree with DMF. Everyone is a felon or someone that shouldn't have guns. Of course, not have read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, my agreement must be put upon record.

Geez people. If you do a crime, and do your time, why is it that you are no longer an American with ALL RIGHTS restored?

If you are still a danger, then why isn't your butt still in jail?

And why is one life, just because they screwed up earlier in life, less important then any life?

Give me a freakin break... oh, I forgot, some new ones here are of the elite class and thus cannot be touched.



Wayne

2nd amendment states NOTHING against a person that did a crime, and is safe enough to let out, to not have any Rights.

The only thing that takes away anyones total Rights is the fact of the government doing anything agaisnt the people, or for treason... and I do believe that most to all fall under this law, the government that is.

 

[BluesBear]

A girl I dated over 19 years ago had written a rubber check for her rent when she was in college. Her landlord evicted her and proscicuted her for the bad check. She was found guilty and since her rent was $150 per month, (this was 1975 folks) that made it a Felony.

So because of this one instance, she can now not vote or posess a firearm.

Leaving the scene of an accident, even when there are no injuries is a felony in some places. Should that overide your right to vote or posess a firearm?

Personally I have no problem with almost any convicted felon posessing a firearm after they have served their sentence and/or finished their probation. Just triple the punishment if they ever commit another crime with a firearm.

 

[Reno]

Langenator, two of a the "good stings" they conduct at gunshows are:
having a group walk up to buy a ppt firearm, one mutters under their breath a reference to living in another state, you miss the reference and sell to them anyway, BOOM, selling firearms across state lines.
My favorite method of entrapment is they walk around selling ppt something for an insane price, like 400 dollars for a pre-ban AR. Then later while you are walking around w/ your new AR another different fed says, "Wow thats just the rifle I've been looking for! I'll give you 1500 dollars." You sell it to them thinking you've made a cool 1100 dollars, but actually you get busted for being an "unlicensed dealer". There's a lot of great entrapment methods that they can get you on. There's a section in UC where JR goes over some of the biggies, also in Boston's Gun Bible there is a great section on "how to avoid getting tagged at gunshows."

atek3

It's illegal to buy guns at out of state gun shows, and to sell a gun from a gun show to someone else at the same show?

What the hell

Is there some place online that has a simple, complete list of what kind of garbage like this can get you in trouble?

 

[atek3]

It's illegal to buy guns at out of state gun shows, and to sell a gun from a gun show to someone else at the same show?

Not exactly.
You can purchase rifles from adjacent states. Handguns must be shipped to an FFL in your home state.
It wasn't the fact that he bought and sold at the same show, it was the fact that he sold at a profit. Profit is evidence of "dealing as an occupation" which makes an FFL 01 the law.

atek3

 

[50 Freak]

So let me get this straight....Multi agency bust over the course on one year just to get 14 individuals on weapons charges (some quite questionable not to mention).

Gee I wonder how much this cost the tax payers?????

Fudge!!!! and I live in freaking crap city, where the murder rate has been skyrocketing over the last 6 months.

Big FREAKING GOOD JOB. I feel a lot safer now. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Reno]

Not exactly.
You can purchase rifles from adjacent states. Handguns must be shipped to an FFL in your home state.
It wasn't the fact that he bought and sold at the same show, it was the fact that he sold at a profit. Profit is evidence of "dealing as an occupation" which makes an FFL 01 the law.

Just to clarify here:
You can't be in a private party handgun sale unless both people are in their state of residence?

And if you buy a gun at a show then someone wants to buy it from you, you can't sell it for more than you paid?

Both of those are utterly ridiculous. Thanks for protecting us from all the bad people, ATF

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

However I just think that all our law enforcement agencies need to examine their priorities.

You miss the point of these laws. They are designed to make gun owners quake in their boots, because they can get something on anyone at any time. These laws are generally not designed to fight real crime.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

There's an ancient saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

When that saying was originated, any reasonable person had an intuative understanding of the law. Basically, it was if you harmed someone or violated someone's property rights, you are in violation of the law. Back then they didn't have laws against being in possession of this or that without the right proof of having paid a $200 Federal tax. You had to actually do something obviously wrong (or they had to show proof of intent to do so, along with significant steps in that direction) to violate the law, which is why it was said that you cannot claim ignorance of the law, because the law was simple and known by all intuatively. This has not been the case in the US for generations.

 

[Wildalaska]

Leaving the scene of an accident, even when there are no injuries is a felony in some places. Should that overide your right to vote or posess a firearm?

Should have thought of that before ya left the scene...

WildtoobadforhimAlaska

 

[Amish_Bill]

Anybody want to lay odds that at least one of those "illegal machine gunes" was an AR with an m16 carrier or trigger, or some other small part that makes no difference to it's overall ability to fire in FA mode?

 

[brookstexas]

This bothers me

I go to the local monthly gun show I hang out and have a good time and every once in a while I buy parts or a gun. I like to try a gun before I buy it but the local range doesn't have everything. I thought I wanted a blah blah model and I found one at a good price. I didn't like it so I sold it the next month. I feel I'm perfectly legal doing so but this gives me the creeps, too much to lose. Even if it goes to court and you are cleared it could cost you 20 grand. Is that the intent of this or are they really worried about criminals? The latest studies don't back up the expense and that's not many arrests for a year long sting where thousands of sales were made.

 

[Treylis]

Having unregistered or illegal machineguns is just plain dumb.

That IS one thing the BATFE guys will nail you on.

Actually, what came to my mind is that they might NOT have known it was a machinegun. I've seen a few posts here talking about people who buy a Romanian AK or something off of someone, they take it out to the range for the first time, and... uh-oh. The sucker is full-auto.

 

[DMF]

brookstexas,

That is just one example of the ongoing investigations. Those agents and detectives brought many more cases to prosecutors over the time. Read my earlier post on this thread. Those press releases I quoted and linked are what the ATF, and the AUSAs that prosecute 18USC922(g) violations are working for. I have spent time with the AUSA in my district that prosecutes most of those cases in the district. He, and the ATF agents I know that work with him, are NOT looking to make life difficult for gun lovers, they ARE looking to keep violent criminals from hurting more people.

Just so we are clear on what is going on here, the cases presented in the initial post, this was much more than just trolling gun shows. Here is the ATF press release: http://www.atf.gov/press/fy04press/field/052104sf_multistate.htm

. . . "Although some of these transactions took place at various gunshows in Nevada, a minority group of people chose to use gunshows as a conduit to conduct their illegal activities," Torres said. "The gun shows were not the target of our investigation."

In addition to the arrest warrants, agents served a federal search warrant at the residence and business of Larry B. Reimer, of Pahrump, Nev. Reimer was arrested pursuant to the grand jury indictments. Reimer, a licensed firearms dealer, was charged with the illegal transfer of a semiautomatic weapon and the illegal sale of a firearm. These charges carry a maximum penalty of five years each in federal prison.

Among the items recovered at another search warrant location in Nevada were a number of firearms, including machine guns, as well as explosive materials. . .[/b]

Want to see what the Justice Department is really trying to accomplish with enforcing 18USC922(g), then read the types of cases they are working here: PROJECT SAFE NEIGHBORHOODS

As I have said before they are trying to protect society from repeat offenders, and that case cited at the beginning of this thread is just a small part of a larger program.

 

[Treylis]

-- Kurt Wilson, 52, of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, four counts unlawful dealing at out-of-state gun shows, three counts unlawful selling of a firearm to out of state resident, one count possession of a machine gun. Also charged in Idaho with possession of unregistered firearm.

Uh, Idaho?

Idaho State Constitution Article I Sec 11
RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.

The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony.

 

[Reno]

From DMF's press release:

Among the items recovered at another search warrant location in Nevada were a number of firearms, including machine guns, as well as explosive materials. . .

Since he's not being brought up on charges for them, I'm going to have to assume that each and every machine gun he had was registered with the ATF, and the "explosive materials" were bottles of gunpowder for reloading.

Good thing they got that evil man! He sold a gun!!!!!!!

 

[Warbow]

atek3 wrote:

It wasn't the fact that he bought and sold at the same show, it was the fact that he sold at a profit. Profit is evidence of "dealing as an occupation" which makes an FFL 01 the law.

Is there anywhere this can be confirmed? How ridiculous if it's true...

 

[DMF]

From DMF's press release:

Reno,

I don't work for the ATF, or even the DOJ, so I don't think Mr. Truscott or Mr. Ashcroft would want it referred to as MY press release.

Besides the press release didn't say who those explosives and "machine guns" were associated with. Only one person was named in the press release, and wasn't associated with that search in text of that press release.

Also, even if that search was of that person's property the AUSA may have reasons for not filing an indictment on charges associated with those items right away. It doesn't mean that additional charges won't come later.