Undercover Probe Of Nevada Gun Shows

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simplistic foolishness
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O really? Coming from someone who "just forgot' to renew his drivers license, gets caught, and now uses that as an example of the "big Bad law"...:D

I don't know how many people I know who have had instances where they "left the scene" and were later charged in some fashion even though there were no injuries and both parties were amenable to leaving. Fortunately in indiana this is not an automatic felony but I doubt very seriously it happens any less frequently in states where it is. But hey, they shoulda thought about it...eh?
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Thats right, they should have...and I bet that 99% of the people who get busted for leaving the scene claim "hey we agreed it was OK"..

And this sort of thing, along with examples of mistakes with checks and a thousand other inconsequential but suddenly felonius acts is justification for losing ones rights of Citizenship, Wild? Of course it is...
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That right...ya play the game ya pay the piper...and tell me what all of these "inconsequential felonies" are by the way...

WildidontwanttobelumpedinwithcriminalsAlaska
 
[idiot mode]
2nd Amendment, its clear you are a dirty criminal who should never be allowed to touch more than a BB gun.
[/idiot mode]
'nuf said,
atek3
 
DMF,

Well documented? Could you provide me with some information on where to get this documentation?
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Well, we could start with the Congressional report that was part of the windup that led to FOPA '86... :uhoh:

http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm

"The Subcommittee received evidence that the BATF has primarily devoted its firearms enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge. Agents anxious to generate an impressive arrest and gun confiscation quota have repeatedly enticed gun collectors into making a small number of sales — often as few as four — from their personal collections. Although each of the sales was completely legal under state and federal law, the agents then charged the collector with having "engaged in the business" of dealing in guns without the required license. Since existing law permits a felony conviction upon these charges even where the individual has no criminal knowledge or intent numerous collectors have been ruined by a felony record carrying a potential sentence of five years in federal prison. Even in cases where the collectors secured acquittal, or grand juries failed to indict, or prosecutors refused to file criminal charges, agents of the Bureau have generally confiscated the entire collection of the potential defendant upon the ground that he intended to use it in that violation of the law. In several cases, the agents have refused to return the collection even after acquittal by jury."
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"The Subcommittee received evidence that the BATF has primarily devoted its firearms enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge. Agents anxious to generate an impressive arrest and gun confiscation quota have repeatedly enticed gun collectors into making a small number of sales — often as few as four — from their personal collections. Although each of the sales was completely legal under state and federal law, the agents then charged the collector with having "engaged in the business" of dealing in guns without the required license. Since existing law permits a felony conviction upon these charges even where the individual has no criminal knowledge or intent numerous collectors have been ruined by a felony record carrying a potential sentence of five years in federal prison. Even in cases where the collectors secured acquittal, or grand juries failed to indict, or prosecutors refused to file criminal charges, agents of the Bureau have generally confiscated the entire collection of the potential defendant upon the ground that he intended to use it in that violation of the law. In several cases, the agents have refused to return the collection even after acquittal by jury."
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Beautiful!!!!! Does that satisfy your definition of "documentation," DMF?
 
Thank you, Wild, for further cementing your reputation as the resident fool. I believe you couldn't alter that reputation at this point with all the money in the world.

Mods, sorry, but jeez... :rolleyes:
 
Beautiful!!!!! Does that satisfy your definition of "documentation," DMF?

Of course not. No more so than all the other documentation on a hundred different subjects has satisfied the two dozen other names that have come and gone 'round here and TFL over the years uttering across-the-board defenses of fedgov and its "activities". It's just what they do.
 
"...over the years uttering across-the-board..."

I thought you were going to name the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists that never met a government or a government worker that they didn't hate with wide-eyed spittle-spraying abandon.


"Since existing law permits a felony conviction upon these charges even where the individual has no criminal knowledge or intent..."

Then I guess they did in fact break the law. Time to change the law so ignorance IS an excuse.

John
 
What's interesting is that my definition of the pro-gov mindset, and how it seems to come and then go with clearly defined identities, is accurate. Meanwhile you ("you" meaning those who never seem to have a problem with government in general) always characterize those who do oppose unrestrained government as "wild-eyed fanatics". Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

Government only works in its smallest and most basic forms. After that it becomes a haven for the lazy and the power hungry and the corrupt. Ours has long since exceeded any concept of constitutional authority and regularly engages in corruption and intimidation, as well as utter incompetence, at all levels. Citing such over-the-top lack of control is not "conspiracy theory", no matter how much some would like to characterize it as such.

Then I guess they did in fact break the law. Time to change the law so ignorance IS an excuse.

No, it's time to elliminate laws which seek to micro-manage citizens and render every person a law-breaker who can be controlled at the government's(or any functionary thereof) whim.
 
Thank you, Wild, for further cementing your reputation as the resident fool.
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Better a fool than...

Naw wont lower myself to the level of the gun chicken littles, hell thats like arguing with thre Brady Bunch, same tactics, different agenda...

WildtoooldfortheplaygroundAlaska
 
Meanwhile, somewhere in America, sits another Tim McVeigh, John Mohamed or Achmed Achmed with either stolen Bushies, fertilizer and fuel oil or C4/Semtex awaiting their 15 minutes of fame and self glory.

If these guys did wrong (and Uncle Sugar and the States say they did) then prosecute and let them tell it to a judge/jury. Maybe jury nullification might stand a chance (can you say "snowball in hades"?) to rectify some actual or perceived wrong (Infringement? What Infringement?).
I know we all play by the rules. We may not like all the rules. Heck, we may not even KNOW ALL THE RULES as a purchasing private buyer, but the vast majority of us comply with the vast majority of said rules and regulations. I expect the licensed FFL I'm buying from to darn well know ALL the rules he oughta. PPT (loophole or freedom?), I guess ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.
...And so a lot of people say there's too much freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it.
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And That's The Way It Is.

...gun chicken littles... :D I like it. Suffer from slight cases of it from time to time...
 
Moderator Note:

Please remember that on THR, we don't call each other names, we don't attack or insult other posters, and when we disagree with someone we do it in a civil manner.

Members who cannot follow these simple rules will have their posting privileges revoked with no further warnings.

See http://www.thehighroad.org/announcement.php?forumid=2 for further information.

pax
 
"I expect the licensed FFL I'm buying from to darn well know ALL the rules"

You mean like when Galyan's opened their first store here and did NOT know that both the buyer AND the seller of a handgun had to go downtown and get permits for EACH purchase? Sometimes the business folks are the last to know.

It turned out that the City Council members didn't really know it either because they weren't in office when it was passed way back when. That law got changed very quickly and that's how a responsive system should work.

John...I said "wide-eyed", not wild-eyed. :what:
 
What's interesting is that my definition of the pro-gov mindset, and how it seems to come and then go with clearly defined identities, is accurate. Meanwhile you ("you" meaning those who never seem to have a problem with government in general) always characterize those who do oppose unrestrained government as "wild-eyed fanatics". Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

Government only works in its smallest and most basic forms. After that it becomes a haven for the lazy and the power hungry and the corrupt. Ours has long since exceeded any concept of constitutional authority and regularly engages in corruption and intimidation, as well as utter incompetence, at all levels. Citing such over-the-top lack of control is not "conspiracy theory", no matter how much some would like to characterize it as such.

Then I guess they did in fact break the law. Time to change the law so ignorance IS an excuse.

No, it's time to elliminate laws which seek to micro-manage citizens and render every person a law-breaker who can be controlled at the government's(or any functionary thereof) whim.
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2nd Amendment, I guess it's true. Great minds really do think alike.

P.S. I wonder if they get paid to hang out on these sites.
 
DMF,

quote:
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Well documented? Could you provide me with some information on where to get this documentation?
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Well, we could start with the Congressional report that was part of the windup that led to FOPA '86...

http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Subcommittee received evidence that the BATF has primarily devoted its firearms enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge. Agents anxious to generate an impressive arrest and gun confiscation quota have repeatedly enticed gun collectors into making a small number of sales — often as few as four — from their personal collections. Although each of the sales was completely legal under state and federal law, the agents then charged the collector with having "engaged in the business" of dealing in guns without the required license. Since existing law permits a felony conviction upon these charges even where the individual has no criminal knowledge or intent numerous collectors have been ruined by a felony record carrying a potential sentence of five years in federal prison. Even in cases where the collectors secured acquittal, or grand juries failed to indict, or prosecutors refused to file criminal charges, agents of the Bureau have generally confiscated the entire collection of the potential defendant upon the ground that he intended to use it in that violation of the law. In several cases, the agents have refused to return the collection even after acquittal by jury."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Well I see a lot of claims made in that paragraph, but where are the references to court records to back it up?

So this 22 year old document that comes from the House Judiciary Committee (which I'm sure many of you have maligned of those the last two decades) is your proof of wanton corruption and abuse?

Hey let's examine that document a little more closely. Lots of references to court cases, unfortunately all the court cases referenced have nothing to do with abuse by the ATF.

The references to alleged abuse by the ATF are conspicously lacking any reference to court documents. Like this:
The Subcommittee received evidence that the BATF has primarily devoted its firearms enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge. Agents anxious to generate an impressive arrest and gun confiscation quota have repeatedly enticed gun collectors into making a small number of sales — often as few as four — from their personal collections. Although each of the sales was completely legal under state and federal law, the agents then charged the collector with having "engaged in the business" of dealing in guns without the required license. Since existing law permits a felony conviction upon these charges even where the individual has no criminal knowledge or intent numerous collectors have been ruined by a felony record carrying a potential sentence of five years in federal prison. Even in cases where the collectors secured acquittal, or grand juries failed to indict, or prosecutors refused to file criminal charges, agents of the Bureau have generally confiscated the entire collection of the potential defendant upon the ground that he intended to use it in that violation of the law. In several cases, the agents have refused to return the collection even after acquittal by jury.
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Lots of footnoting prior to this section of the report by why don't we get pointed toward some proof to back up these claims?

Or how about here:
When one of the judges informed Bureau officials that he felt dealers had not been fairly treated and given information of the policies they were expected to follow, and refused to permit further prosecutions until they were informed, Bureau officials were careful to inform only the dealers in that one state and even then complained in internal memoranda that this was interfering with the creation of the cases.
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So what judge, in what district, and what was the case? Again, no footnotes here to point anyone to anything backing up this claim.

Could it be that 22 years ago these Senators may have been pushing an agenda and chose to villify the ATF in order to further their cause? (I am sure no one here ever claimed someone in Congress might twist the truth to push an agenda. ;) ) I happen to agree with some of their thoughts on NFA, GCA and other legislation, but making the ATF a scapegoat to further an agenda is shameful and ridiculous.

So over two decades ago, some claims that aren't backed up were made by a few Senators, that is all you have to document the constant and outrageous abuses of the ATF? I provide links to numerous recent cases, that name the defendants, the prosecutors, and districts where they will be prosecuted in, all which show they are going after dangerous, violent offenders, and you answer with a 22 year old document that has claims that aren't backed up by solid facts.
 
DMF, I don't envy your job as a government propagandist. You have an uphill battle on your hands, and the tide of facts is overwhelmingly against you. But I guess everyone has to do something for a living. :D Do they at least provide you with a staff? :neener:
 
DMF,

Could it be that 22 years ago these Senators may have been pushing an agenda and chose to villify the ATF in order to further their cause?
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Since your birthdate is unlisted in your profile, I'll let this pass without any comment other than "22 years ago Congress was hardly knee-deep in hardcore, right-wing neo-nazis."
 
Well Tam, not to disabuse you of your point (whatever it may be) I am old enough to remember the hearings in 82 and am also old enough to have co counseled more than one person popped in an ATF sting (later tossed out on a technicality thank you fer the legal talent *bow*)...

They werent as bad as people said they were, they werent as good as they should have been or thought they were...they did trample over some innocent people and got deservedly hammered for it..on the other hand they grabbed some real bad actors...(some of whom skated on technicalities and then whined and cried how their "rights" were violated) Hey it was their scummy bottom feeding lawyers who took care of that (oops they arent bottom feeders when they represent wrongfully accused gun dealers neh?)

Unfortunately, as I said earlier...taking a few examples of abuse and painting all ATF agents with it is the same as taking a few examples of crime and painting all gun owners with it....

DMF...keep the faith bro, your not the only reasonable person on this Board...

WildandwiththatitsadieufertonightAlaska
 
WildAlaska,

Unfortunately, as I said earlier...taking a few examples of abuse and painting all ATF agents with it is the same as taking a few examples of crime and painting all gun owners with it....
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I wasn't doing that, WA; I was merely pointing out that there's a middle ground called "the truth" somewhere between the "kitten burning, baby stomping" picture that DMF protests, and the "these guys are saints who sweat blood to protect your ungrateful hides by unerringly and incorruptably seeking out the baddies wherever they may dwell" view that he propounds. When he piped up with "What abuses? Show me documented abuses!", I figured he might not know it had once been bad enough to trigger a congressional investigation.

(As an aside, for those of you reading out there who think the BATF is maybe a little adversarial to owners and licensees these days, do a little studying about the atmosphere in the '70s; we've come a long way, baby.)
 
Wild, my calling you a "fool" was outside the tenor of this board and I shouldn't have done it, so I apologize for that. I am sorry. In the future I'll stick to a more direct rebuttal of your points and save the unnecessary hyperbole for my own forums.
 
Accepted and ditto back.

Wildholdingoutheolivebranchofpeacewhilelionslaydownwithlambsandangelssinghalleluliaandhappypeoplebeat9mmsintoplowsharesnowaitfergitaboutthatpartAlaska
 
. . . the "these guys are saints who sweat blood to protect your ungrateful hides by unerringly and incorruptably seeking out the baddies wherever they may dwell" view that he propounds.
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I have never said ATF or it's employees, whether SAs or other personnel, were perfect. Remember I am the one who posted the link to Groh v. Ramirez et al. However, they are not the "Jack Booted Thugs" that hate guns, and love to harrass innocent gun owners, that gets portrayed on the gun forums either. As I have presented here there plenty proof of the high quality, professional, and valuable investigative work that ATF Special Agents do that refutes the "JBT" stereotypes. They are going after violent offenders, as the examples I have provided show, and those are just the firearms cases. There are even more examples when you look at the explosives, arson, tobacco and alcohol cases ATF works. Yes, believe it or not bootleg liquor and cigarettes are still big money businesses, and there are alot of dangerous criminals involved.
 
I have a certain level of past experience which allows me to say without doubt that ATF is comprised, in the main, of seriously anti-gun types who will actively pursue law-abiding Citizens on technicalities and non-events in order to forward a social agenda of firearms elimination from private hands. (Note: That agenda is overall, for the individual agent I doubt it goes beyond furthering their own personal dislike of private firearms ownership) They will also often pursue real criminals with equal abandon. That fact does not change the other one. The fact they do accomplish some good doesn't change the bad. Your apparent effort at claiming it does is simply wrong.
 
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