Undergunned with 9mm?

[amprecon]

It seems each pistol caliber has a huge following of it's own. Some dedicated to one caliber or another and defends it to the end. I've been mulling over a couple new pistols in 9mm, .357Sig and .40S&W and have been looking at the ballistics of each. Particularly the Kahr standard size steel pistols and the compact Glocks, 19/23/32?. I've also been trying to get some ideas of how the recoil is in these pistols.

I've owned a K9 previously and loved it aside from the perennial rusting problem it had. I understand they've resolved the finish problem now. I currently own a G21 and a SP101 in .357mag.

I've never shot the .357Sig or .40S&W from any pistol and would like to know how the Kahr K40, G19/23/32 compares to the recoil from the K9, SP or G21.

I am drifting towards the .40S&W because of the larger bullet diameter and energy, I'm not too serious about the .357Sig, I've been hearing and reading reports of the afterburner flame, loud report and expensive ammo, but was just curious of how it compared.

My wife is not a big shooter but might need to use one of them possibly and the little practice she might get may pay off better if she has a good experience.

That being said, I want to get a Kahr and a Glock, just don't know which caliber. I believe the K9 has a one round advantage over the K40 and the G19 and G23 are limited to 10 rounds. Would I be undergunned with a 9mm? Or should I get these compact pistols in the supposedly more effective .40S&W or .357Sig and learn to like the recoil and flamethrowing?

If possible I'd like to rent them and see for myself, but lack of an indoor range here won't make that likely for now.

 

[10-Ring]

Don't feel under gunned w/ 9mm. As long as you use quality defensive ammo, you're fine Especially if you've already got experience shooting 9mm.

 

[txgolfer45]

What 10-Ring said!!!

 

[JMag]

Shot placement is the key with any handgun. You are undergunned if you believe yourself to be. Best to think happy thoughts and place your shots in the right spot. It's usually not the best gun that wins, but the best man (most determined, least afraid) who wins!

 

[Marko Kloos]

When you compare the top loads in 9mm, .40S&W, .357SIG, and .45ACP, there is very little difference in terminal performance in both expansion and penetration. I feel perfectly comfortable with carrying any of those calibers, but my favorite is the 9x19 thanks to lower recoil and ammo cost. Cheaper ammo translates into more practice and more proficiency at arms, and lower recoil means faster shot recovery and faster accurate placement of multiple rounds.

Load your 9x19 with premium HP ammo, and you're armed just as well as the guy with the .45 or the .40S&W.

 

[Mike Irwin]

If I'm undergunned with a 9mm (I have a Kahr K9 that I occasionally carry), then I'm completely screwed with my regularl carry gun, an S&W Model 042 in .38 Spl.!

 

[P95Carry]

Pretty much all been siad .. but would add that also ... you will probably have benefit of double stack mag capacity .... this ''evens the score'' a tad!

 

[Wildalaska]

The 9mm is far less effective than the 45, and unless its a Glock 45 its not worth anyhting. So if you have anyhting other than a Glock 45, give it to me.

WildchainpullerAlaska

 

[Ian11]

I don't think it makes that much of a difference and so do many here on THR based on a recent poll.

Shooting something bigger or faster has a psychological effect on the shooter and I won't deny that. And if it makes you feel more confident (not delusional) that can be a good thing, I guess. What's more important is how well you shoot a particular gun in a particular caliber.

More often than not the main reason I shoot .40 and .45's is because I like shooting them and the particular guns they're chambered in.


Get a 9mm if you like it. Pick good defense loads and practice. Don't sweat it too much. People like to make a big deal they shoot "macho" rounds.

 

[Alan Fud]

When you start to look at the best loads in each caliber, you begin to see that they're almost identical in terminal performance (ability to penetrate, expand, and otherwise wound a violent threat) ...

... The 9mm versions on most "premium" loads are very close and sometimes superior to the .40S&W and .45ACP versions. It's all about bullet design, not bullet weight or velocity.

The problem is that while there are few "bad" loads in the other calibers, there are tons of "bad" 9mm defensive choices out there. Many rounds either fail to expand or fail to penetrate, or both. Most of the super-fast stuff from places like Corbon and Triton simply fragments, creating a shallow wound.

So for 9mm, load selection becomes paramount. But once you choose a good load, it works just like a good load in .40S&W, .45ACP, or any of those other calibers. Sure, it's not as heavy as the heavy bullets, and it's not as fast as the fastest bullets. But if it penetrates the same, expands the same, and disrupts tissue the same, who cares?

 

[Parker Dean]

If you are looking at the .40, I would like to suggest a look at the 10mm (the 10 and the .40 have the same bullet diameter).

The cartridge is very flexible. You can get low-power loads which are what the .40 was designed to approximate, or run up to full-power Magnum level loads depending on ammo manufacturer.

As for stories of limited ammo availability personal experience indicates that you can find the low-power cartridges just about anywhere (Remington, Federal/PMC). It's when you start looking for the REAL 10mm that it gets a bit difficult since Winchester is the only large manufacturer that I've found loading the 10 close to its original spec in the 175gr Silvertips (although some have indicated a possible downloading of even those). But smaller manufacturers like the Texas Ammunition Co. make some that are pretty close to, if not beyond, the original spec.

So, much like the .357's, you could have good SD and hunting capabilities in the same gun depending on loading chosen.

 

[Alan Fud]

Parker, not to go off-topic here, but does anyone still make the full-power 200grn 10mm round?

 

[Boats]

I've quit engaging in these types of arguments when I can because they are IQ droppers.

However, this time there is one point I'd like to make:

"Shot placement! Shot placement! Shot placement!" chanted over and over as if it were all that matters can't help but remind me of certain other protestations made by those with small man's syndrome.

It is in fact a rather non-sensical mantra. Of course "shot placement!" matters. However, "shot placement!" is a beginning, not an end. Of course one must hit the target. Whenever that is done though, "shot placement!" has run its course. From there in, the issue is how much work can your meager handgun bullet do on the target? When was the last time you saw a gelatinous assailant, lacking maybe a down coat or a ribcage? Gelatin is garbage and even then, why not compare apples-to-apples? A 230 gr +p+ level loading (45 SMC or Super) is going to have it all over a 124 gr +p+ hydrashok, especially on denim clad jello.

And that, Marshall and Sanow garbage contentions aside, is why many big bore pistol fans, deride rabid medium caliber fans. Large caliber fans use the same exact argument that 9mm/.38 Special fans use against anyone who might have the temerity to suggest that a .32ACP or a .22 Magnum might be as good for self defense as a 9mm or .38 snub revo. "Oh no, there is a minimum floor of acceptable caliber performance," most will say. What of "shot placement!" then? No one wants to stand in front of a .22lr revolver just to show how ineffective it is either. No one has ever volunteered to play catch with my downrange .32ACP rounds.

Which is where the train leaves the tracks for the medium bore fans. They want to argue equivalency of performance with the .44/.45 rounds, but they can only do that through charlatan cops with bogus stat tables or cherry-picked lab stats. Anecdotally, the "equivalency" of 9mm and rounds bigger than it doesn't hold water. It doesn't gain any credibility from battlefield accounts, actual shootings, hunting-----anywhere. Of course no one wants to catch a 9mm, but a lot of people don't want to shoot it either.

Are you undergunned with a 9mm? Not compared to having a .22lr revolver. Are you undergunned compared with a bigger pistol caliber? Maybe, maybe not--but one thing is certain--you'll periodically wonder about it.

Shooting a .45ACP, I never ask if I am undergunned caliber-wise for self-defense against humans because I know I am objectively not when only able to carry a handgun. My experience is that medium and small bore shooters ask this adequacy question routinely and as if they were trying vainly to talk up their confidence before disrobing in the locker room for the first time.

 

[WonderNine]

Supposedly the guy here that was involved in the shooting outside the gun range switched from .45 230gr. Hydrashocks to 185gr. Golden Sabers because the Hydrashock failed to expand. I would tend to think a 9mm round in 124-127 ish weight would expand more reliably than any .45. And as you can see, the 9mm hollowpoints make a larger wound.

What do I carry? 9mm FMJ. Because I've seen how "inneffective" it is.

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

.357Sig is nice, but they make ALOT of noise. I won't be looking at any until after the AWB sunsets. Then I may consider one like a Sig P229. No plastic fantastics for me.

 

[Boats]

The hydra-shok is yesterday's news. It has never really been the premier SD load in .45ACP. I do believe that honor would go to the 230gr Golden Sabre.

 

[WonderNine]

The 185gr. GS has more energy and speed than the 230gr. version. IMO 185gr. is plenty heavy.

 

[Boats]

Speed isn't what .44/.45 rounds are about, they're about momentum brought to target. It is well proven in wound science that those impressive "temporary stretch cavities" you guys are so proud of in the volumetric calculations you cite don't mean squat to lethality or incapacitation in the short term, which is when you want lethality or incapacitation.

It is a well known ballistic axiom that self-defense handgun rounds are all too slow to create the dynamic tissue disruption caused by many rifle rounds. Since what one is effectively doing with a handun is "icepicking," penetration depth and permanent wound channel are by far the most important factors given equal shot placement. Weight in a bullet prevents liquid deflection of the bullet path during penetration and gives better odds of damaging or passing through bone when it is encountered. Every small bore gunner pooh-poohs the extra diameter a big bore usually has whether particular rounds both expand or both fail. Since fractions count in a wound and could be all of the difference between clipping an artery and missing, between partially severing the spinal cord and not, and between all kinds of anatomical structures being damaged or not. I will take the best frontal section I can throw on target that will penetrate to a reliable "killing" depth assisted by as much momentum as can be achieved by the platform.

So I'd rather have a 9mm than a .380
A .357 Mag than a .38 Special
A .40S&W than a 9mm or .357 SIG
A 10mm than a .40S&W
A .45 over any flavor of .40
A .44 Special than a .357 Mag
A .44 Mag than a .44 Special

 

[WonderNine]

I was talking about speed in relation to expansion. The faster a round is, the more likely it is to expand given the same bullet design and weight. And typically the lighter rounds are faster. I wasn't talking about penetration at all. I tend to abandon any talk of penetration when discussing with the hollowpoint minded shooters. But that's why the 124-127gr. 9mm hollowpoints are so effective, they tend to give the best of both worlds.

The smaller diameter that a bullet is, the penetration tends to go up exponentially. This is why you can shoot through certain types of armor with .220 Swift, but not .30-06.

 

[WonderNine]

Talking 8+1 of .45 in a 1911, vs. 15+1 of 9mm in a BHP. Hmm, the choice shouldn't be difficult.

 

[Boats]

Maybe someone should neck down a 50 BMG to accept a .17HMR bullet then?

 

[Boats]

Trick question since the BHP is usually only found with either 13 or 17 round mags. All of which comes back to the old "planning on missing a lot?"

 

[WonderNine]

Maybe someone should neck down a 50 BMG to accept a .17HMR bullet then?

Why, you plan on having to shoot someone behind a concrete bunker?

Trick question since the BHP is usually only found with either 13 or 17 round mags. All of which comes back to the old "planning on missing a lot?"

You might eat those words if you ever get mixed up in a shooting someday with multiple assailents. 1 shot does not equal 1 kill.

 

[sm]

Shot Placement...
I do not feel undergunned when I carry a 9mm.

I can still ( as of two days ago) draw from concealment and hit a playing card at 7 yds first shot in .8 , I kept all shots in playing card from 7 yds using my niche gun---Keltec P-11.

Be the firstest with the mostest

 

[WonderNine]

How could you possibly feel undergunned when you're carrying twice as much or more ammo as the .45 shooters?

 

[amprecon]

Gentlemen, I by no means wanted to start a flame war. My objective was to determine whether the muzzleblast and recoil of the .40S&W or .357Sig in the aforementioned pistols was significantly prohibitive in accurate, sustained and effective shooting by a non-shooting person, such as my wife. Or is the added recoil not worth the gain in supposed power?