Undergunned with 9mm?

[Mikul]

I've fired all of the calibers. They're all acceptable for self-defense. Real-world documented shootings back this up, statistics, physics, and lab testing also back this up.

Personally, I don't like the .40 S&W guns. They recoil similarly to a .45, so why not just use a .45 which will accomplish the same thing at much lower pressures? Which brings me to my next complaint... the .40 S&W beats guns up. Glock, H&K, and Sig make quality firearms; probably the best in the industry. When I see one break, especially a newish one, it's in .40 S&W or .357 Sig. The pressures are nothing that a gun can't handle, but it doesn't seem that the manufacturers have worked the kinks out just yet.

I find the recoil of the .357 Sig to be sharp. It's controllable, but I wouldn't want to run 200 rounds of it as I usually do in a practice session. The brass should be more annoying to reload due to the bottleneck, but I know of no one who reloads it that is having a problem. This cartridge can replicate the magical 125-grain .357 Magnum round that seems to be the undisputed man-stopper, which is it's saving grace.

 

[ColonelJim]

If you can't hit what you're aiming at.......I don't think it much matters what caliber you're using.
If you CAN hit what you're aiming at.....I don't it much matters what caliber you're using.

 

[Marko Kloos]

They recoil similarly to a .45, so why not just use a .45 which will accomplish the same thing at much lower pressures?

Well, the idea behind the cartridge was to downsize the 10mm Auto, so it would fit into 9mm-sized platforms. (The 10mm requires a .45-sized frame.) That particular goal was accomplished, but I don't like the .40 for exactly the same reasons you described. The small amount of extra performance over the 9mm in a imilarly-sized platform is bought at the expense of more recoil, higher pressures, reduced frame life, less capacity, and much higher ammo cost.

I'm a big 10mm fan and consider it superior in every respect to the .45ACP. The "10mm Lite", on the other hand, does not offer any significant gains for me to prefer it over the 9mm Luger.

 

[Sean Smith]

One minor correction: .40S&W and 9x19mm both have the same pressure limit according to SAAMI: 35,000 psi. 9x19mm +P is about 38,000 psi IIRC. Pressure doesn't directly correlate to performance; 10mm's peak pressure is "only" 37,500 psi, but the extra case capacity lets you stuff in more slow-burning powder to get higher speeds at manageable pressures.

 

[Deepdiver]

You' re only undergunned with a 9mm if

1. you can't hit what you are shooting at, or

2. your opponent is a faster/steadier/better shot than you are, or

3. your opponent has a long-gun, and you are within his range, but he is outside of your range.

...there are probably other scenario's, but you get the drift - it won't be because you don't have a 40 or 45.

 

[Boats]

Of course when we examine the sleight of hand required to make 9mm look equivalent to bigger bores, the arguments made are exposed for what they are.

Remember this chart of Hydra-shoks evidently shot on two dimensional jello as the wound is given in area rather than volume?

9mm 124gr. +p+ Pen. 13.3" Expansion 0.67 Wound Area 44.8 sq. in.
.40 S&W 155 gr Pen. 13.3 Exp. 0.68 Wound 47.9
.45ACP 185gr +p Pen. 12.9 Exp. 0.69 Wound 31.5
.45 ACP 230gr Pen. 13.7 Exp. 0.71 Wound 28.4

Well. . . volume of a cylinder, which an actual bullet track most geometrically resembles, is area of the base pi r(squared) times height. Sorry, mathematical notation doesn't work here.

Actual wound volume caused by passage of the bullet:

9mm 18.75 cu. in.
.40 S&W 19.31 cu. in.
.45 185 19.28 cu. in.
.45 230 21.69 cu. in.

The rest of that "wound area" crap from the Calibers site is temporary stretch cavity in gelatin, which has exactly nothing to do with anything.

Then again, a cursory review of ammolab reveals the truth. Any 9mm expanding to 0.67 or more is a rare event, so much so that it should hardly be counted on, especially in a clothed target, whereas 0.71 for .45 ACP is rather ordinary.

http://ammolab.com/9mm_section1.htm

Let the statistical cherry picking and apples to oranges comparisons resume. I don't mind fruity efforts to give the 9mm big bore equivalency, I just don't eat what I am offered.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Wow...

Less than 3 cubic inch volume difference between the 9mm and the .45...

LAWDY LAWDY LAWDY!

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

VASTLY SUPERIOR PERFORMANCE!

Oh.

Wait.

3 cubic inches, quite frankly folks, isn't ???? of a difference between the rounds.

You're engaging in a little mathematical slight of hand yourself, Boats.

You seem to be making the assumption that each bullet, immediately upon impact, was fully expanded, and cut a cylindrical channel through the testing media as if it were being pushed at the end of a stick.

Don't think so.

The .45 is a great cartridge. But despite all of the hooting and hollering and chest beating of the most ardent, and blindered, cheauvinists, the simple fact remains that today's modern high performance ammunition has erased any true advantages that the .45 once held over the smaller calibers, and especially the advantages that it truly did hold when hardball was the only game in town.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Just noticed something, as well, about Ammo Lab's testing, something I'd like explained to me...

The 9mm testing? 4 layers of denim cloth.

The .45 ACP testing? 1 layer of denim cloth.

I can't remember the last time I walked out of the house with FOUR layers of denim on, or even clothing that would come even remote to simulating 4 layers of denim.

Why the discrepancy?

 

[sm]

Mike,
I agree. I still think it boils down to shot placement. Yes we have better ammo today. Me, I shoot .45ACP because I like the platform, the gun fits enabling me to get my shots where I want them. I can also do this with a 1911 style 9mm or 9x23, or .38 super...

I can shoot my Keltec P-11 in 9mm well.

Yes, I have let my revolver skills slide, but I again wouldn't feel undergunned with a .38 spl from my 3" model 64, or any other .38 spl platform, J frame/K frame-snubby or otherwise. "Undergunned" well duh...sure I'd rather have a 12 ga...Instead of Calibers, Platforms, and Ammo types, which a person has to figure for THEMSELVES what they shoot best, quickly and accuratley, Pick one, preferablly that fits, get good at shot placement, and not worry about.

I shot with a former "person" whom had worked with SF at one time. " I like the 32ACP better than the .380". OK I asked why. "Because where I had to be the ammo was plentiful, and the gun was generic to region..380 was scarce and used by the cops. I could practice all I wanted and not attract attentionwith the .32. I got really good with it and did not feel I couldn't use it effectivley. " Besides , we just had ball ammo, my shot placement was the critical component, not the ammo, the gun, or the caliber". Yep, makes sense to me.

His Bug was a .25 ACP, used ball ammo in a 950 Jetfire.

I figure I have a greater chance of getting to shoot a Hottentot than a blue jean clad jelloman. " hang on jelloman...how many pairs of jeans you wearing--oh crap! shoulda bought that super duper blue jean ammo...I knew I should have".

I shoot dirt, mud and critters. I figure jello man ain't wearing that much fabric...if he his, head shot, neck shot...bet his carotid bleeds like warm jello anway

OCD is not worth obsessing over.

 

[amprecon]

"...comparison in suckitude..." LMAO That was funny.

The pistols I'm considering would not be for the wife primarily, I want them for myself. I was just wondering if the recoil in .40S&W and .357Sig would make them prohibitive for her to shoot if she had to shoot them.

From what I've read so far, the gain in power is not sufficient enough to warrant the added recoil and cost.

We have a .357mag SP-101 loaded with .38's primarily as a house gun and I carry the G21 with me in my truck. Don't plan on selling either. My wife actually wants either a 2" .38 or one of the NAA .22 mini's. I think she'd be better off with the .38 snubby.

Anyway, thanks for all the input, I think I'll go with the K9 and the G19.

 

[agtman]

Regarding Alan Fud's question on the "full-power" 200gn 10mm loads, actually Texas Ammo markets 2 of these loads. TA uses Hornady bullets and launches both @ 1250fps/694fpe. One is, as mentioned, a 200gn FMJ-FP, while the other is Hornady's venerable XTP-HP. (Wilson raves about these for SD in the .45acp loads).

A while back a did a Range Report on both of these TA loads using 3 types of 10mm pistols commonly owned by 10mm fans. It's posted here, if you're interested:

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=84117

Regarding whether anyone should feel "undergunned with a 9mm," it's probably true that handgun calibers in general suck for self-defense, when compared to rifles or even a good 12-gauge pump.

However, when the issue is strictly limited to the handgun calibers discussed here, some calibers suck more than others.

For easy target practice, competitive "gun games," cheap plinking, breaking in a girlfriend, or executing your neighbor's yappy poodle, you're probably not "undergunned" with a 9mm. As well, the 9mm attracts politically-correct police administrators, arthritics and the terminally limp-wristed from various walks of life. Hey, it's a diverse world out there.

But for any serious social situation involving an armed assailant, where you only have access to a pistol, there are certainly better choices available than the 9mm - notably the .40S&W, 10mm Auto and .45acp.

 

[Boats]

I would only pause here to point out the reason why cubic is more meaningful than square in these measurements. The surface area of three cubic inches is actually quite substantial, especially if blood is leaking from it all.

The reverse argument is perverse and not backed by reality. If 9mm hollowpoints were really the real world equivalent of the larger and/or faster rounds, there would have been no perrennial search for something to replace it.

Facing facts in auto rounds, there was once really only 9mm and .45ACP in "service pistols."

Then there was the 10mm, a direct R&D response to the perceived inadequacies of the 9mm.

Then there was the downloaded .40S&W, again trying to be more of a replacement for the 9mm than the .45ACP

Then there is the .357SIG, trying to take the bullet of the 9mm and give it more zip, again a move, whether grounded in reality or marketing hype, in response to the question, "what can we do to improve upon the 9mm?"

Then there is the phenomenon of police agency trade-ins. The trend has been a distinct migration away from the 9mm despite all of this ballistic equivalency, nay outright advantages it allegedly has over the .40-.45 pistols replacing them.

You can beat the drum until it breaks, but 9mm has always been, and will probably remain, viewed as more marginal, even for a pistol defense round, than the bigger bore ones.

Railing against gravity doesn't make one lighter. Arguing the 9mm is as effective as larger rounds is just about as vainglorious.

What next? "With modern high-performance bullets, the .38 Special +p is as effective as the .45LC with the same bullet technology?"

 

[Harold Mayo]

Of course when we examine the sleight of hand required to make 9mm look equivalent to bigger bores, the arguments made are exposed for what they are.

Hmmm....

I don't look too much at the tables, though I have viewed almost all of them at one time or another. They all say the same thing...that handgun rounds suck.

I don't have to engage in "sleight of hand" to make the 9mm look equivalent to bigger bores...I shoot animals and see what happens.

Let's see...

I shoot a deer with a 9mm BHP and he dies.
I shoot a hog with a 9mm BHP and he dies.
I shoot a deer with a .45 ACP 1911 and he dies.
I shoot a hog with a .45 ACP 1911 and he dies.

Logically, then, according to my "sleight of hand" while looking at dead animals than I've slain with the aforementioned calibers, I get the following:

Shoot with 9mm=shoot with .45 ACP=dead animal

My "sleight of hand" arrived-at conclusion is, then, that 9mm=.45 ACP.

Pretty neat how slight of hand arguments work pretty well with dead animals. I guess those shot with the 9mm ought to be protesting their deaths.

 

[Intune]

"I guess those shot with the 9mm ought to be protesting their deaths."


I bet the ones shot with the .45 would too if they could!
Mmm, venison, it's what's for dinner!

I was going to ask if you saw a time diff in going down, but I've noticed a diff with .243 and '06, The .243 shot deer went down quicker in my case. Both lung shot at about the same range. Wuss deer!

 

[matsaleh]

LOL - Religious wars can be fun. Some pretty cool one-liners in this thread.

Shoot what works for you. What can you afford to practice with, what you feel comfortable carrying, and what allows you to be confident.

Practice. Get familiar and good at it.

For me, I chose 9x18 first because both the gun and the ammo were inexpensive, reliable, and accurate as hell.

Then I got 9x19 because I wanted something that would be most likely to be carried by any invading foreign military or police force if the SHTF. You know, something with plenty of ammo available to "liberate" if necessary. Paranoid? I dunno... Hillary is a Senator now, with a possible move for Prez, and Ol' Bill has his eyes on the Secretary-General seat at the UN. They might just leave the back door open for the jack-booters.

But, meanwhile, 9x19 is cheap to practice with, and I'm getting pretty good with it, and more confident.

Cheers.

 

[Al Thompson]

Harold, I can't believe your injecting real life into an internet argument! Shame on you!

About once every two years, someone I know who is a dedicated handgunner shoots a critter with his/her "uber" load. They usually come back like this - - when they find that handguns have a lot more relationship to an arrow than a rifle.

After popping a few critters with ball ammo (9mm/.45), I was extremely unimpressed. My carry loads are all HPs, Gold Dots preferred.

 

[Boats]

Some dudes also allegedly shot up some mean French goats and said the same thing--"9mm equals .45ACP!"

Except of course for that one small detail, namely fraud.

About the only people who have meaningful combined experience shooting people with handgun hollowpoint ammunition are cops. LEOs have been running away from the 9mm in droves.

Maybe they didn't shoot enough hogs, deer, or javelinas, amped on coke or meth?

You will note that I agree that having only a handgun when the balloon goes up would suck and a prayer would be uttered even had I the prescience to be carrying a .454 Casull that moment. However, I do agree with the notion that some handgun rounds suck more than others do, so I will go with one of the less sucky ones. It is remarkable, to say the least that shot placement advocates don't put their trust where their rhetoric is and carry Beretta Bobcats or something.

 

[Harold Mayo]

Actually, most of the LEOs that I know who have a choice in their duty weapon carry a 9mm. I can't actually think of any (that I know personally) who carry a .45, anymore. Almost ALL of the ones that I know USED to carry a cocked and locked 1911 in .45 ACP and are now shooting 9mm Glocks, H&K P7M8's or M13's, or custom 1911s in 9mm.

Conversely, pretty much ALL of the LEOs that I know who DO NOT get a choice in their duty weapon carry a .40 caliber of some flavor, normally a Glock 22.

Boats, maybe your ballistic gelatin that was shot with various rounds didn't contain enough coke or meth, either?

:banghead:

 

[Harold Mayo]

Harold, I can't believe your injecting real life into an internet argument! Shame on you!

About once every two years, someone I know who is a dedicated handgunner shoots a critter with his/her "uber" load. They usually come back like this - - when they find that handguns have a lot more relationship to an arrow than a rifle.

After popping a few critters with ball ammo (9mm/.45), I was extremely unimpressed. My carry loads are all HPs, Gold Dots preferred.

Yes, I am ashamed. I will strive to NOT interject anything but hearsay, rumor, and innuendo into by posts from now on.

I carry +P Gold Dots in everything, too.

Everything that I've shot in the thoracic area with either handgun round has expired rather quickly if not immediately. The 0.09" difference in bullet diameter hasn't seemed to make any difference in length of time.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Actually, physisologically, 3 cubic inches isn't really all that significant, unless it's 3 cubic inches of heart muscle or brain tissue.

"You can beat the drum until it breaks, but 9mm has always been, and will probably remain, viewed as more marginal, even for a pistol defense round, than the bigger bore ones."

The funny thing about it is, it's really not so much the 9mm people beating the drums as some of the .45 people coming swooping down like the screaming meemees over what most often are only perceived insults.

The .357 Mag. round certainly isn't viewed as being a marginal round. Yet it's nominally a 9mm bullet, and some of the 9mm loads available are pretty close ballistic matches to highly regarded .357 Mag. loads. Curious.

Take your pick, Fackler's jello junkies or even Marshall & Sanow's one-shot-stop crapola. Both agree that the 9mm with modern bullets and .45s with modern bullets show performance levels amazingly similar.

Then we have this...

"Some dudes also allegedly shot up some mean French goats and said the same thing--"9mm equals .45ACP!"

You know, it's been a long time since I read the reports on the supposed goat tests, but I don't remember getting that at all.

I do remember getting the supposed fact that the Glaser was supposed to be the best performing bullet in all calibers over .380, and the results were fairly mixed.

That is, if you believe the goat tests ever took place. I'm still out on the subject.

Now, if you go back to FBI tests in the 1980s, and the reasons why the 10mm and the .40 came about, in large part it's because both the .45 and the 9mm failed the early batches of tests that FBI designed, and failed them pretty miserably.

That's right, they both failed.

Largely due to the bullets that were then available.

Now we need to look at this...

"The trend has been a distinct migration away from the 9mm despite all of this ballistic equivalency, nay outright advantages it allegedly has over the .40-.45 pistols replacing them."

In order to understand that properly, one has to understand the contextual timeline.

It looks pretty convincing, on its face. But if you understand what was going on at the time, you'll finally begin to understand that appearances can be very very deceiving.

Timeline...

Early 1980s. The "Wonder9" craze starts, drug wars start breaking out, police everywhere feel that they're outgunned, and the mad rush from revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics begins.

1986 (IIRC). Miami shootout. Despite the piss poor tactics and preparation of the FBI agents involved, which result in several of them being killed or gravely wounded, the blame for the entire situation isn't placed on the men involved, it focuses almost squarely on a single 9mm Winchester Silvertip bullet.

That Silvertip bullet, despite actually showing good penetration and almost textbook expansion, is pilloried as the reason the FBI screwed up.

Police agencies all over the nation pause in their tracks, wondering if they did the right thing in adopting the 9mm.

Later 1980s. Glock is quickly winning the lion's share of police handgun sales in the nation with their 9mm 17s and 19s.

FBI begins testing possible successors to the 9mm Winchester Silvertip, including the .45 ACP and a variety of rounds, and finds that most all of them fail to one degree or another in the test procedures that they've laid out.

FBI allows its agents to carry either a 9mm OR a .357 Magnum, as they see fit, during this period.

Very late 1980s, early 1990s. FBI adopts a 10mm pistol despite many reservations. After numerous problems in testing, they load the round down to the 10mm Lite. The new bullet designed for it, however, shows very good performance in the FBI's tests, including a variety of penetration scenarios.

At the same time, S&W begins working on the .40 S&W, essentially the 10mm FBI reound in a cut down case. It is masterfully marketed, essentially as the second coming of Christ.

When the round is released in late 1989, it already has huge popular support, based largely on supposition, and police forces that went to the 9mm in the early 1990 now start to move to the .40.

Early 1990s. Based on the FBI's testing, bullet manufacturers begin to move designs into the computer age. New designs offer VASTLY superior performance. Dr. Martin Fackler laid out his criteria for what a bullet should do, and the manufacturers responded.

Early 1990s. The initial batches of .40 caliber ammo didn't have these new bullets, and California departments report several rather frightening failures of the round to do the job, based almost solely on bullet performance.

Late early 1990s and up to today. The new generation of bullets in all calibers has shown what the proper application of computers can do for ballistics. With properly designed bullets, performance in all calibers used in police work show amazingly similar results and efficacy.

And all through the 1990s?

The move away from the 9mm that began after Miami began to slow, and numbers of departments that use 9mm vs .40 vs .45 has stabilized.

There are still something like 100,000 police officers in the United States that use the 9mm, and have good results with the round as long as the proper ammunition is selected.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"It is remarkable, to say the least that shot placement advocates don't put their trust where their rhetoric is and carry Beretta Bobcats or something."

I carried a Taurus TP-22 exclusively for almost 5 years...

What does that tell you?

 

[antediluvianist]

what do you know?

I said momentum is important. I said bullet placement is the most important. That is not obsession with momentum.

You, on the other hand, have written nothing useful.

 

[Starpower]

After 17 years in my current department, I have used a .357 mag revolver, a 9mm Sig 226, then a Beretta 92 9mm, and currently we are issued Sig 229 in 357. I have seen the results in arms and legs of all three sizes, (we don't all shoot "Expert")and I intend to empty everything I have if they can still shoot back at me. Believe me, when that paper target starts shooting back, slow, deliberate shot placement becomes suppresive fire. My Baretta 92 with 16 rounds (one in) is my best off-duty choice. I have fired the Glocks but didn't care for them.

 

[Island Beretta]

Good thread so far with sound reasoning and a sprinkling of maths/physics here and there!! That said the quest to improve on the 9mm should not be taken as an indictment on the round it is just a part of humans to be dissatisfied and seek better.. Cars, computers, planes, phones etc. etc. go the same way and I do not look down on the say, Ford Model T of yesteryear, when compared to the F150s or Evos of today.

Shoot well!!

 

[matsaleh]

What to look for in Proper Bullet Design?

The new generation of bullets in all calibers has shown what the proper application of computers can do for ballistics. With properly designed bullets, performance in all calibers used in police work show amazingly similar results and efficacy.

What should we look for in a properly designed bullet for 9x19? What brands use these designs?

Currently I'm using Aguila IQ because it shoots well and because the mkt info matches what my CHL instructor told me was important: hi velocity, light bullet, and massive shock value. Also it's affordable.

Thanks.